Battle Sisters, Death Korps, and Personalities

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**DOOMONYOU**

Their personality is what got me interested in the Krieg forces to begin with. Playing them to that personality on the tabletop was interesting as well. An infantry advance (instead of castling up with current guard, or mechanized forces) thats objective was to bayonet charge whatever opponent i played.

then forgeworld changed their rules and i lost interest in this army. Hoping that the new IG codex release will mean that krieg get re-done in all their splendor.

But they are a love/hate army, purely on the fact of their throw away your troops mentality.

**Ashiraya**

DOOMONYOU wrote:

But they are a love/hate army, purely on the fact of their throw away your troops mentality.

Oh, far from it. I am no fan of them for sure, but that has nothing to do with the throw away troops tactics.

Valhallans do that too, and I don't dislike them.

**TiamatRoar**

They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.

Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.

**Jollydevil**

In my opinion Dkok are some of the most interesting troops out there.
What makes them interesting is their grit and unity. I like them because, especially compared to other guardsmen, you can tell that theyve seen some gak. Their tanks and vehicles are always muddy, their equipment is never clean, and nothings ever clean cut with them.
Yet, even through all this, they still hold an iron resolve.
Besides, do you really think that underneath the mask each one of them is really exactly the same? While they might be hardened from birth to show no emotion, Free will still exists. And you can bet that some of that free will would be shown on the chaos of the battlefield some way or another.
Also, love the profile pic, heres to a SM2.

**liquidjoshi**

TiamatRoar wrote:
They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.

Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.

You... realise the DKoK are based on WW1 troops, right?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I'll explain what I mean. Most races in 40K vary a lot in personalities, in the race itself. There is a considerable difference between an Eldar and an Eldar, an Ork and an Ork, a Marine and a Marine, and so on, and so forth. Hell, even the Swarmlord shows surprising individuality when you consider its context and situation.

Battle Sisters and Death Korps, on the other hand, are trained to be fearless weapons from birth.

There is the same variety within the Sisters faction. One Sister may be very impulsive and full of hate against the blasphemer, while another can be very patient, thoughtful, and much more focused on her duty to protect the Imperium. One Sister may be smart and another stupid. One Sister may have a big sense of humor and another can be brooding. One Sister may be reclusive and another may be very expansive.
And when you add in the Order that are not militant, the variety becomes even bigger.

It really does not compare to the Dark “We are all paranoid secretive brooding bastards” Angels

.

**TiamatRoar**

liquidjoshi wrote:
TiamatRoar wrote:
They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.

Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.

You... realise the DKoK are based on WW1 troops, right?

I wasn't aware the troops from World War 1 had a death wish, were produced out of what basically amounts to cloning facilities, and were all so individual-less that they were often referred to by their ID number instead of by name.

(for those who don't get it, yes, in the end, the specifics of their looks and some of their battle tactics were based off of World War 1, but the personality was based off "faceless mook" tropes)

**Jollydevil**

TiamatRoar wrote:
liquidjoshi wrote:
TiamatRoar wrote:
They're a deconstruction of the various nameless faceless mook narrative tropes. A bunch of "villainous valor" faceless gasmask goons with no individual self-identities who don't care that they're going to die as they charge in for the sake of their employer.

Of course, they're a heroic example for the most part (well, as long as you view the Imperium as the "good guys") but the whole gas mask thing makes it fairly obvious they're a "faceless mook" tribute, I think.

You... realise the DKoK are based on WW1 troops, right?

I wasn't aware the troops from World War 1 had a death wish, were produced out of what basically amounts to cloning facilities, and were all so individual-less that they were often referred to by their ID number instead of by name.

(for those who don't get it, yes, in the end, the specifics of their looks and some of their battle tactics were based off of World War 1, but the personality was based off "faceless mook" tropes)

Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?

**TiamatRoar**

Jollydevil wrote:

Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?

I suppose what we have here is a disagreement over what was the symptom and what was the cause (IE, are they based off of WW1 with the faceless mook tropes being added on to complement that, or are they based off of faceless mooks with the WW1 tropes being added for flavor. Or both at the same time).

Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)

**Jollydevil**

TiamatRoar wrote:
Jollydevil wrote:

Theyre pretty much WW1.
Theyre not just based off it on looks. WW1 was nearly entirely consistent of death charges, one of the main components to Dkok battle strategy. WW1 also largely based upon trench and siege warfare, lo and behold another trait of the Death Korps. Gas masks. Trench coats. Massive artillery. More and more.
No, obviously WW1 troops were not cloned, or given serial numbers. Yes, theyre a dramatization. But what in 40K arent? The Death korps were based upon the troops of WW1. In order to work these values in, youve got to add backstory. What better way to justify stupidely massive charges than an unbreakable willingness to die? And what better way to symbolize the untold millions who died in said tactics, than making them all faceless?

I suppose what we have here is a disagreement over what was the symptom and what was the cause (IE, are they based off of WW1 with the faceless mook tropes being added on to complement that, or are they based off of faceless mooks with the WW1 tropes being added for flavor. Or both at the same time).

Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)

Its the most plausible answer. Most other guard are based off some sort of other kind of soldier, and the Roles fit the inspiration perfectly.
Sure, GW hasnt down right come out and said theyre directly based on WW1 troops, but the similarities are too common to be coincidence.

**ansacs**

If you haven't already read it I highly recommend Dead Men Walking. It has a very nice look into a normal IoM citizen who fights side by side with the DKoK.

The following could be considered spoilers but honestly you can tell where the war will go in 10 pages it is the journey that is interesting.

Spoiler:

Honestly the DKoK are so alien to us that their interactions mean nothing. It is like two insects interacting. They may say volumes with their leg movements but we will never understand it. The real interesting part for us is the interaction of the DKoK with the rest of humanity. Commissars find their eerie and are there to reign them back so they don't over commit rather than pushing them forward like for normal IG. Other IG will flatout refuse to work with them and some are even scared of them.

All this is not helped by the fact that there is essentially 1 novel about them that can show any level of personal detail and it's focus wasn't even a DKoK soldier.

In many ways I like them because of their spartan nature and training (you may notice that the trials, etc. are very similar) and their deep beliefs. A cadian or mordian may be disciplined but will he shoot himself in the head if his officer commands it? The DKoK soldier will and not because he is incapable of saying no, doesn't value his life (his life is valued as his lasgun is as a resource of the emperor), or even that he is some faceless mook with no emotions. He does it because he must repent for the sins of his planet and the emperor's voice told him this is how to do it. When he shoots himself he will want to shoot himself and feel pride at doing it. DKoK are not robots they are highly motivated soldiers that just happen to be conditioned in a way that boggles the our minds because we were conditioned otherwise.

The SoB also appear to have much more attitude than you might give them credit. You don't make snappy puns like flourish in their material without a pretty interesting personality. That personality does seem to be flamer wielding psychopath fanatic based but that doesn't mean that she doesn't sing the best hymns to the emperor ever heard or carve statues of the emperor out of charred tyranid carapace. It just means that they all share a common...interest...

These characters could be written with a great deal of personality ad complexity. However it all needs to be nuanced and the writer that could do it would be incredibly skilled. Probably why these characters are normally not portrayed as leads in BL as the skill level of the authors is not exactly award winning.

**Bobthehero**

Ansacs, have you read Down Amongst the Dead Men? Its by the same author, and its from the point of view of Kriegsmen, excellent read, too.

**Sparkadia**

Personally, I just love the Kreig aesthetic and hate the standard Cadian one.

I'm a horrible lore-butcher though, and like to give my Kreigsman somewhat repressed and restrained personalities. Though indoctrinated, brainwashed and cold, they are still humans.

I bet if you had Kreig Football Team1 and Kreig Football Team 2, they would probably have a preference, as an example. Even if the teams were the same, Kreigers may argue which is better.

But hey, YMMV. Your 40K might be different to mine. I like to think that my DKoK might be a slightly less crazy breed and be essentially more suicidal guardsmen in really badass uniforms.

**MajorStoffer**

On the subject of the Korps, IA12 made an effort to give them some more individual personality without breaking the established trend.

In short, they're motivated by a strong sense of guilt; the failure of their home world and subsequent nuclear apocalypse. As such, the highest honour for a Kriegsmen is to be given a name, drawn from the last pre-war census on Krieg. They basically fight for the memory of everyone that was lost, to the point where the only true name they have is drawn from the casualties of a bygone mistake of apocalyptic proportions.

They're faceless, heavily indoctrinated, and have been alluded to being artificially produced in some capacity/volume, but they remain, in some form, human underneath that. Humans which exist solely for the reality of the 41st millenium, but little bursts of individuality and character show up amongst those who survive battle to battle, such as Colonel Torbec, who's appeared, at least in passing, in every FW book to reference the Korps, who follows the mold of many WW1 leaders of leading from the front, charging headlong into hell and holding out with a small band of ne'er do wells deep behind enemy lines.

They aren't, say, Band of Brothers, but they certainly aren't lacking in character as an organization, or are lacking in individuals of note.

**ansacs**

Bobthehero wrote:Ansacs, have you read Down Amongst the Dead Men? Its by the same author, and its from the point of view of Kriegsmen, excellent read, too.

I have not. I didn't even realize... Well there goes my few remaining sleep hours.

**Bobthehero**

Its a short story, so you'll be able to read it and sleep, woohoooo.

**BrianDavion**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
People don't like to admit Codex: Adepta Sororitas exists because A) it's not in print (so they have to take a kindle or something with them to use it), and B) it's powerful enough to stand on its own without Allies and kick butt, even though it's only got Marine toys but less of them.

I never expected people to dislike it for that. As far as I know, all codices can shine, even the new Tyranid crapdex. There's at least a little cheese in every codex, but that does not make the codex as an entirety very good. Melta dominions or something was what I've heard was the cheddar of the SoB book.

Furyou Miko wrote:
That said, I think that there is room for individual personalities in the Sisterhood. A mischievous Sister might prank her Sisters by moving the mannequin in the sacristy to the other side of the room (not really heresy as she's not defaced the robes, not really rebellious because she's not moved it out of the room, and as far as we know the Creed doesn't have a directional bias, but highly amusing when the Superior goes to get her vestments and realises they're facing the wrong way). A competitive Sister might challenge their Superior to regicide or some other approved wargame on a regular basis, or she might keep count of how many heretics she's purged in any given engagement and try to get the other Sisters to tally up. There is space for individual characters in the Sisterhood, you just have to realise that they all pray the same way and wear the same expression under their helmets.

Ehhhh... Yeah, no. I am not an expert on these things, but from what I have seen they both respect their superiors too much and are punished too harshly for any such pranks. And regicide? That would require free time, something that it is doubtful if they have (Even when travelling in the warp, they must be praying, they must tend to their gear, and so on...)

I suspect they do have some free time, and Regicide as a stragety game is proably an enchouraged passtime

**tommse**

There´s this BL book called "Dead Man Walkin" about DKOK fighting against Necrons and a lot is written out of the perspective of the civilians that oftentimes hardly can tell the difference between the two because both behave like automatons.
Noone has a personality and that is an interesting perk on its own. The fatalistic deathwish that is so different to our own modern, western culture is discribed really well in here, especially when there´s the scene where one of the DKOK grenadiers takes off his facemask and reveals the face of a 19 year old boy with dead eyes was sending shivers down my spine.
There really is an appeal to DKOK but not really in how the individuals behave.

**bu11etmagn3tt**

I collect Dkok, and use it as reg guard, and many might think they are dull in character. Far from it though! Read dead men walking, and of course the fw book they are in.... however, here is some background....

Before the Fall:The world known as Krieg is shrouded in rumor and dark myth, much of its dreadful history has been obscured and lost. The wilderness of ruined cities that span this blasted poison choked world, point to krieg once having been a thriving hive-world, a trading and manufacturing center populated by billions upon billions. The rulers of this world - the council of Autocrats, bloated with wealth and corrupt with indolence, petty vendetta and vice became increasingly insular and debauched. The Autocrats' paranoia over outside threat that could shatter their dictorial rule caused them to plough vast resources into strengthening the defenses of their hive cities, building private armies and further surrounding their world with an d ring of steel. Worse, the Autocrats grew to resent the Administratum on 'their' world and in particular the heavy tithes levied on them on them by the Departmento Munitorium taking resources they proclaimed were vital to their own defense. The citizens of Krieg were sadly ignorant of these slowly spiraling events and terrible ruin the misrule of their leaders was about to be brought down on them.REVOLT!:For Krieg, the end came in the year 433.M40 when the High Autocrat of Krieg largest hive, the council chairman and the de-facto planetary governor, (a man so hated that his name has been purged from all records), declared a planetary wide martial law and seceded his world from the Imperium. Civil war had come suddenly and violently on Krieg. Much of the world had been quickly capulated to the rebel's power. After the rebel's initial attacks only hive Ferrograd remained under loyalist control, because the 83rd Krieg imperial guard regiment, under the command of Colonel Jurten, was in the final stages of being mustered at FerrogradIn response to the revolt, Colonel Jurten moved quickly to take control of the hive city from its vacillating rulers in a military coup. With the veteran Colonel at its helm, Ferrograd rapidly became the rallying point for the remaining loyalist factions.But the situations for the loyalist was dire; the rebel forces had numbered in millions and Ferrograd was soon cut off and besieged. To make matters worse, the loyalists were on their own; the planetary defenses were under the traitors, control, and strong enough that a full scale fleet action would be required to breach them. Jurten had been informed in no uncertain terms that a fleet powerful enough to invade Krieg was simple not available. Colonel Jurten's orders were to resist with all means at his disposal, to engage the enemy, to punish their treachery and emerge victorious - whatever the cost. So faced with the horrific odds stacked against him, Jurten came to the fateful decision that the world Krieg would belong to the Emperor, or it would belong to no one...Deep below Hive Ferrograd was a secret Adeptus Mechanicus storage facility, and Colonel Jurten with his loyal Adeptus Mechanicus ally, Archmagos Greel, moved to unlock the facility and unleash the forbidden ancient weapons within. Whilst outside the siege ground on, within Ferrograd's walls the defenders laboured a desperate plan.The Purging:On the feast of the Emperors Ascension Jurten unleashed his long planned counter-attack. Scores of long range missiles roared forth from the heart of Ferrograd. The traitors helplessly watched their augers asJurten's rockets arced high into the planet's stratosphere before detonating in blooms of blinding light, and unleashing tonnes of lethal isotopes which blanketed the entire world in deadly fallout. For days the atmosphere became a sea of nuclear fire. Under Jurtens attack the planet's eco-system failed. The air was poisoned and Kriegs climate collapsed into storms that spanned continents. The raging fires blocked out the sun and a nuclear winter engulfed Krieg. As a results untold billions died. Those that did not perish took to thier fallout shelters and began a new subterranean existence. To future generations who would live terrible consequences of the atomic attack, Jurten's plan would come to be known as the 'purging'. Krieg might have been wrecked, but the purging evened up the odds. The loyalist had been well prepared for the attack, and the traitors would suffer terribly. But the civil war would go on...Krieg's nightmare had only just begun. To the Imperial authorities Krieg was a prize no longer worth saving, its fate a red mark in the ledgers of the Administratum. Krieg became a man-made death-world trapped in the freezing grip of a radioactive nuclear winter. The war between the secessionist and loyalist developed into devolved into a pitiless bloody war of attrition across a planet where every inch of ground grew to be littered with trench work, rusting razor wire and shell craters, in a deadly landscape where drifting fallout ash shrouded the numberless bones of the unburied dead.It is doubtful that the full truth of those long and terrible centuries of the civil war will ever be known. Jurten finally perished, how, it is not recorded, but the descendants of those that followed him but the descendants of those that followed him lived on, and became as fearless as they were callous. War was all they would ever know, men were raised from birth to fight. The men that advanced great-coated and vapor-masked through the rad wasteland blasted cities became known as the Death Korps. They existed only to endure a hellish planetary surface, in order to do their duty and to kill in the Emperor's name. Through fifteen generations of terrible bloody attrition, the loyalist slowly re-took their blasted world in the name of the Emperor, trench-by-trench and tunnel-by-tunnel with bayonet, brutality and when needed atomic fire. After more than 500 years of the most nightmarish warfare imaginable and an incalculable price paid in human life and suffering Krieg belong to the Death Korps.

**jareddm**

For me the best representation of DkoK is in their interactions with other Imperial forces.

Take this short story of of a Krieg medic being merged into another non-Krieg regiment. The story was originally written to help a player get into character for a game of Only War.

You are a Death Korps Medic. You were the second most valuable item in your squad. The first most valuable item was a plasma gun. Every member of the squad was trained to operate the plasma gun in case the primary operator was killed. It was deemed inefficient to train every member of the squad to perform the duties of a medicae. Arguably, therefore, you were the most valuable member of the squad, but the plasma gun had seen decades of service. You had not.

You have been trained as a field medic since the age of 12. You performed your first field amputation eight days after beginning training. The procedure was not successful. Your equipment is generic and has been replaced many, many times. You no longer distinguish between your equipment and your body, as both are required for your purpose.

In your former squad, all members knew your value, and were trained to assist and protect you. Your new squad is less efficient. It has conflicting doctrines. Orders are given in unfamiliar tones and with unfamiliar style. You are struggling to adapt, but you will not fail. The squad needs you. You can protect them. You can save them to fight again. If they die, it is your duty to ensure, in the absence of a Quartermaster, that their gear is distributed or stored properly and that the body is placed where it will not decay and spread contaminated air, give comfort to the enemy, or obstruct the operations of the Imperial Guard. You sometimes have difficulty distinguishing between the living and the dead.

Sometimes, the members of your new squad do strange things. They spend hours talking to each other. You have to listen to make sure they are not giving you orders or conveying vital information without you knowing it. You do not want to appear weak. Sometimes, they make strange coughing sounds. You have asked them about this. They do not understand what you mean, and then they cough again, showing their teeth and grinning like a skull. You suspect it is endemic, possibly a sign of weakness of mind. You have been warned to watch for signs of weakness of mind. You have tested them for lung-rot and bore-fly larvae in case.

Sometimes, it seems as though the squad does not understand your duty. You cannot waste valuable medicine on a soldier who can never make a full recovery to fighting strength. His pain is a weakness of the mind. His screams are a weakness of the mind. You can ignore them. Your squad cannot. They are weak. They do not understand. Your skills are for those who can be saved. It is a waste of ammunition to end the life of the badly wounded. It is a waste of medicine to heal them. Your new squad does not understand.

Your new squad is inefficient. They disagree with each other. Intolerable weakness. Sometimes, they disagree with the orders the Sergeant gives them. Unthinkable. You were prepared to strip the corpse of the soldier who disagreed with the Sergeant, but the Sergeant did not execute him. You do not understand. Disobedience is death. At the age of ten you watched them line up and execute a platoon for failing to obey the precise letter of their orders. You do not understand how the Imperial Guard functions if orders can be questioned.

Your new squad fears death. They prefer to risk their missions rather than risk danger. You have seen situations where acceptable losses (up to 20% of the squad) would have lead to a much more favourable outcome. Weakness of mind.

The equipment of your squad is unorthodox. They have extraneous items. Books that are not regimental issue. Items of decoration. Weapons that are not regimental issue. Modified uniforms. Facial hair. Weakness. Unorthodoxy. It makes sorting the equipment of the dead difficult. Sometimes, members of your squad object to you removing certain items from corpses. You do not understand this. A dead soldier has no need for non-regimental gear, just as he has no need for the items and weapons issued to him by the Quartermaster.

Your sometimes wonder if you have been placed in a squad of raw recruits. They fear the sight of the dead. They fear the enemy. The fear death. They are undisciplined. They are inefficient. They are weak. You cannot make them stronger; you can only stop them from failing. You must do your duty.

Your squad is weak. One solider asked for pain relief as you stitched a minor facial wound. You did not understand. Had he received some serious injury that had evaded your notice? Did he not understand that all medical reagents are to be prized and used only when required?

He complained that your stitching would mark his face. You did not understand why he was telling you this. Scarring is part of the healing process. The solider did not want to be disfigured, it was explained to you. You do not understand why he feared a minor scar. You explained that it would in no way impede his combat effectiveness. He did not cease his complaints for several days. Intolerable weakness.

Your squad asks strange questions that are not orders but require a response. The squad was talking about their home worlds. You were not listening. It was not important. You were inspecting the hive-vault for hidden sniping positions while recumbent. One of your squad members asked you about Krieg.

You told her.

She did not ask you again. The squad members did not continue talking. Entirely acceptable. Some showed signs of fear. Entirely unacceptable.

The Sergeant dismissed you at camp. He said you were to report at dawn. You assumed that he or another officer would conduct training and inspections until your appointed sleep cycle. No officer appeared. You stood in the empty barracks and waited.

Another member of your squad told you to come with them to the regimental mess hall. The soldiers eat here in great numbers. The food is prepared nearby, not packaged and sealed. It was disgustingly flavourful. You prefer your rations. You still have a few Krieg rations in your kit. You are saving them for the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension.

The mess was disorganized. There was so much noise. You found a corner and ate alone.

You went back to the barracks to wait. The squad arrived eventually and you were told to prepare for the sleep cycle. You had your kit stowed and cleaned well before anyone else. Shirkers. Unorganized. Unacceptable.

The sleep cycle here is too long. After precisely four hours you woke up. The rest of the squad was not awake. There were no lights. You were confused. You stared at the ceiling until the Sergeant arrived two and a half hours later.

Staring at the ceiling of the barracks for two and a half hours every sleep cycle is not efficient. You do not want to wake your squad. They are weak. They require more rest than you do.

You have memorized every Imperial feast day your old regiment celebrated. You spent two nights memorizing the feast days of your new regiment. Some dates conflict. You spent several more nights attempting to combine the two without conflict.

Sometimes, you take out the knucklebones and look at them. They are from your first kill. They are polished brown and yellow now. They are very small. You were ten years old when you shot him. He was a deserter from your training regiment. He ran from the tunnel-warren and to the surface one night. Your squad was ordered to hunt him down. You remember his serial number (104-2205-P), but you do not remember what he looked like. The knucklebones were much bigger when the Training Officer handed them to you. Perhaps they have been worn down, even though you have kept them safe in a cotton bag in your kit.

**Bobthehero**

Impressive!

**Peregrine**

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Their personality is what got me interested in the Krieg forces to begin with. Playing them to that personality on the tabletop was interesting as well. An infantry advance (instead of castling up with current guard, or mechanized forces) thats objective was to bayonet charge whatever opponent i played.

then forgeworld changed their rules and i lost interest in this army.

I don't really know why you'd say that. Every version of the FW rules has been all about mass bayonet charges. The 4th/5th-edition siege list was defined by WS 4 melee blobs with pistol + CCW on every model and powerfists on the sergeants. The 6th edition assault brigade emphasizes grenadiers (short-range elite shooting) and endless waves of respawning WS 4 guardsmen with melee-focused orders to boost them and awesome death riders to power lance whole marine armies off the table. Even the 6th edition siege list update, as sadly limited as it is, still has WS 4 as one of the defining attributes compared to codex IG.

jareddm wrote:
It is a waste of ammunition to end the life of the badly wounded.

Just a slight nitpick here: the DKoK attach almost religious significance to the quartermaster giving an honorable field execution to a dying guardsman who has done all he can in service of the Emperor. Other than that, very well done.

**DOOMONYOU**

Peregrine wrote:
DOOMONYOU wrote:
Their personality is what got me interested in the Krieg forces to begin with. Playing them to that personality on the tabletop was interesting as well. An infantry advance (instead of castling up with current guard, or mechanized forces) thats objective was to bayonet charge whatever opponent i played.

then forgeworld changed their rules and i lost interest in this army.

I don't really know why you'd say that. Every version of the FW rules has been all about mass bayonet charges. The 4th/5th-edition siege list was defined by WS 4 melee blobs with pistol + CCW on every model and powerfists on the sergeants. The 6th edition assault brigade emphasizes grenadiers (short-range elite shooting) and endless waves of respawning WS 4 guardsmen with melee-focused orders to boost them and awesome death riders to power lance whole marine armies off the table. Even the 6th edition siege list update, as sadly limited as it is, still has WS 4 as one of the defining attributes compared to codex IG.

jareddm wrote:
It is a waste of ammunition to end the life of the badly wounded.

Just a slight nitpick here: the DKoK attach almost religious significance to the quartermaster giving an honorable field execution to a dying guardsman who has done all he can in service of the Emperor. Other than that, very well done.

the big rule change that put me off was the loss of stubborn, and the recycling infantry squads. The recycling infantry squads is seen as too OP in my flgs. Then the re-release of the seige list was basically a copy-paste job from the assault brigade. The simple fact you stated 6th ed and grenadiers (short range shooting) is evident to the move away from melee, the grenadiers actually lost an additional attack in close combat by the removal of their hotshot laspistol, and the sergeants are limited on their power weapons too.

Anyways I don't want to derail this thread into a krieg thread.

I was put off bayonet charges by forgeworlds 6th ed changes, but their fluff of artillery barrages still can be played. No other army can put out the amount of pie plates as a death Korps seige army.

**Spetulhu**

jareddm wrote:

Your new squad fears death. They prefer to risk their missions rather than risk danger. You have seen situations where acceptable losses (up to 20% of the squad) would have lead to a much more favourable outcome. Weakness of mind.

I did like the write-up, but this kind of startled me. Surely a Krieg soldier would consider even 100% losses acceptable if the mission was carried out?

**Ashiraya**

Spetulhu wrote:
jareddm wrote:

Your new squad fears death. They prefer to risk their missions rather than risk danger. You have seen situations where acceptable losses (up to 20% of the squad) would have lead to a much more favourable outcome. Weakness of mind.

I did like the write-up, but this kind of startled me. Surely a Krieg soldier would consider even 100% losses acceptable if the mission was carried out?

If the losses were as low as 20%, the Kriegsmen would probably wonder if the mission actually was done properly.

**Sparks_Havelock**

TiamatRoar wrote:
Has GW or Forgeworld ever directly stated what the main or original inspiration/purpose/theme was? Or are you just speculating how their design process went? (I'll admit that I am, myself)

Everything to do with the Death Korps is copied from or inspired by the Great War. This is most notably obvious with their clothing and equipment - French army greatcoat, British army puttee's, German stalhelm with a flute inspired by the French Adrian helmet - even the colour tab on the collar of the greatcoat, used to identify units in battle, comes from the Belgian army. The Grenadiers have armour inspired by German trench-armour whilst Krieg Engineers have armour inspired by a type made for the Royal Engineers of the British Army. That's just off the top of my head - if you wanted to spend the time you could match every bit of their uniform and equipment to a Great war equivalent.

Even their psychology is inspired by the period, with the general young age of Korpsmen matching the fervently patriotic youths who, heavily indoctrinated by propaganda, wanted to sign up and fight for 'King & Country' during the Great War - this is also where the Death Korps zealotry comes from. The armies involved in the Great War were generally very well disciplined whilst the grim demeanour and fatalistic sense of humour comes from the men of the various armies who needed something to get through each day - a laugh is better than a sob. They spent each day surrounded by death and suffering, being battered by artillery, strafed & bombed by aircraft, ever aware of the presence of enemy marksmen, waiting on a hair trigger for the enemy assault or to be ordered into the attack, whilst living in horrific conditions and eating army rations (often cold out of a can) - it's easy to see where the Death Korps mentality comes from. When you look at the way the Death Korps view each soldier as a resource to be expended, the way they just have a number instead of a name, how their officers are not fussed about ordering them into the attack, well you just have to remember that to the High Command of the various armies the soldiers were just a resource with which to defeat the enemy. Because the Generals were so far away from the horror the amount of dead just became another number, depleting their resources.

I would go on to talk about the way the Death Korps fights but the above will do for now.

**Bobthehero**

DOOMONYOU wrote:
The simple fact you stated 6th ed and grenadiers (short range shooting) is evident to the move away from melee, the grenadiers actually lost an additional attack in close combat by the removal of their hotshot laspistol,

They never had them to begin with, even when they were 18 points a model

**Jdredsox**

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
well you just have to remember that to the High Command of the various armies the soldiers were just a resource with which to defeat the enemy. Because the Generals were so far away from the horror the amount of dead just became another number, depleting their resources.

I would go on to talk about the way the Death Korps fights but the above will do for now.

I disagree regarding the high command criticism as they were just doing the best they could in a completely new type of war of which no one had any experience before.

With regards to the DKoK, I agree they are based on WW1 forces, although more like WW1 on steroids.

**Sparks_Havelock**

It's more that the further you are from what's happening, the less association you may have with the realities of the situation. There's a big difference between picking up a piece of paper and reading a list of dead mens names whilst 'safe' in a building 30-50 miles from the front lines and actually being there, seeing the corpses on the ground, hearing the screams of the wounded and so on. That, in my eyes, is where the Death Korps lack of care for the number of dead/wounded comes from.

But yes, Great War on steroids is quite a good way of putting it.

**DOOMONYOU**

Bobthehero wrote:
DOOMONYOU wrote:
The simple fact you stated 6th ed and grenadiers (short range shooting) is evident to the move away from melee, the grenadiers actually lost an additional attack in close combat by the removal of their hotshot laspistol,

They never had them to begin with, even when they were 18 points a model

you right. I was doing it from memory. It was the command squads that lost the ability to swap lasguns to laspistols for veterans, I used grenadier models. my bad.