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1) Why are SM and Tau listed as battle brothers in the BRB - Don't Space Marines want to kill all the aliens?

2) Why are Space Marines and Sisters of Battle only allies of convenience?

1) Because GW wants to sell more SM. Tau should really be DA or AoC with SM and BB with IG (for gue'vessa).

2) Because Matt Ward hates SoB (check the grey knights codex written by him).

alexc wrote:
1) Why are SM and Tau listed as battle brothers in the BRB - Don't Space Marines want to kill all the aliens?

2) Why are Space Marines and Sisters of Battle only allies of convenience?

1) Supposedly when asked this question at a convention, GW employees simply responded that SM and Tau have allied together like that before in the fluff (which is true). And it was in a Battle-Brothers level in terms of tactics (IE, they squadded together and fought side by side). As far as I can tell, in this case, it's more a case of the tactical doctrines working together than the two factions liking each other.

2) The Sisters of Battle in the allies matrix wasn't very well thought-out, I think. Heck, the latest SM codex even says sisters and marines have fought "side by side" (and they've done so in the Armegeddon campaign as well, if I recall correctly) yet you can't have them do this on the table top. I suppose the people writing it simply looked at the sisters, said "Oh, they're zealots! They must have worse-on-average relations with everyone!" without actually considering the actual fluff, the idea of "fire-forged friends", or the concept that even zealots can be reasonable sometimes. Sisters and Marines have been called up to crusades under a single Warmaster on many occasions in the fluff, which I think is a lot more a "combined operations" thing than "allies of convenience". Allies of Convenience implies they only get together when it's convenient and NEVER under one overall commander, which has never been the case in the fluff.

1) There is a not so small pile of threads about the allies chart. Most IoM forces should be BB with other members of the IoM, but certainly not any xeno.

2) someone from GW visited DAkka; SAW the SoB playerbase isn't so SM-friendly and thought the SoB won't be BB...


A true to background ally chart would need more diversification. You have to treat Craftworlds like SM chapters and Necron dynasties and ork klans and....
Tau are small and could run with a simple split: Empire / Enclaves.

SOBs and Space Marines outta get along pretty well I agree. That said I could see there definatly being some room for tension.

"We're the daughters of the Emperor" ".... ohh really now?"

"well you see Space Marines don't belive the emperor is Divine. Pure Awesome sauce? sure, a literal god? nah" "........ WHAT!?"

TiamatRoar wrote:
Heck, the latest SM codex even says sisters and marines have fought "side by side" (and they've done so in the Armegeddon campaign as well, if I recall correctly)

People always like to bring up Armageddon when this topic is discussed, but they always ignore the specifics, the Armageddon 3 website entry for the Flesh Tearers included this salient point written by Canones Carmina of the Order of Agent Shroud:
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies."

Capable of being present on the same battlefield without shooting eachother? Sometimes (see Armageddon3 website entry for the Order of the Argent Shroud), capable of the seemless integration represented by Battle-Brothers Ally Status? Hell no.

 Gashrog wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Heck, the latest SM codex even says sisters and marines have fought "side by side" (and they've done so in the Armegeddon campaign as well, if I recall correctly)

People always like to bring up Armageddon when this topic is discussed, but they always ignore the specifics, the Armageddon 3 website entry for the Flesh Tearers included this salient point written by Canones Carmina of the Order of Agent Shroud:
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies."

Capable of being present on the same battlefield without shooting eachother? Sometimes (see Armageddon3 website entry for the Order of the Argent Shroud), capable of the seemless integration represented by Battle-Brothers Ally Status? Hell no.

I always thought that space marines wer full of them selves. Now this confirms that they are a bunch of gakkers.

BrianDavion wrote:
SOBs and Space Marines outta get along pretty well I agree. That said I could see there definatly being some room for tension.

"We're the daughters of the Emperor" ".... ohh really now?"

"well you see Space Marines don't belive the emperor is Divine. Pure Awesome sauce? sure, a literal god? nah" "........ WHAT!?"

That's a good point. Consider the glee with which Sunni and Shia kill each other in Iraq... then amplify the level of theological disagreement at least a hundred fold, and make one side delusional women and the other side roided out pyschopaths.

Be glad they aren't COME THE APOCALYPSE

I'd still say they should be BB. For one, cause Salamanders. Two, and more importantly, because Black Templar. If we want to be extremely analytical, we could argue that IG and SM should be allies of convenience because they largely fight seperately and many look down on marines. Seriously though, the ally chart is a mess in terms of game balance and fluff. If it wants to be fluffy, it should base ally level upon the best possible relationship rather than going the way of CSM and Ig and saying allies of convenience. What does that mean? Why not just BB or not allies at all?

I think what Gashrog is pointing out is his quite makes it sound like the SOBS and SMs certinly fight side by side, but they lack the deep tatical intergration you see as typical of battlebrothers.

compare that with the guard, when you frequently see cases of a space Marine squad being split up and working to bolster and help individual guard squads.

 1hadhq wrote:

1) Most IoM forces should be BB with other members of the IoM, but certainly not any xeno.

Nope. AoC should be the default, with BB reserved for true brothers in arms (certain chapters, CSM/CD, Eldar/DE). SM don't leave the chapter to command platoons of guard, but that's what BB does for 40K.

 Silverthorne wrote:
That's a good point. Consider the glee with which Sunni and Shia kill each other in Iraq... then amplify the level of theological disagreement at least a hundred fold, and make one side delusional women and the other side roided out pyschopaths.

I am trying to get a suitable real-world comparison for Space Marines being BB with Tau while still representing the Space Marines as a branch of Islam. Hum, that might not go too well, let us stop with real-life examples .

Are the hooves on tau cloven or not? That will be important if you try.

There are a lot of alliances that don't make the best of sense on that Matrix. However, to answer your race-specific question, the Tau and Marines have fought side-by-side before, and even allowed each other some significant courtesies that saved entire armies instead of just killing them or letting them die. Marines have a grudging respect for the Tau's tactics and sense of honor, not to mention impressed with their formidable weaponry.

 alexc wrote:
1) Why are SM and Tau listed as battle brothers in the BRB - Don't Space Marines want to kill all the aliens?

2) Why are Space Marines and Sisters of Battle only allies of convenience?

1) I think it's because they have a similar combat doctrine. The spearhead surgical strikes and the highly mobile fireteams are something that both armies do well, in fluff. While they may not share goals, necessarily, they DO operate on the field similarly. That's why they have an easier time of working together.

2) Because they are, despite being on the same side, totally different in culture as well as in tactical approaches.

The Fire Caste in some ways have more in common with Space Marines than Sisters do. Both are a separate caste of people, living entirely cut off from the culture they serve, entrusted with valuable powered armor suits and focused entirely on warfare 24/7/365-and-a-quarter.

That's just my take on it. I like the Allies chart as-is. (Although I'm the minority opinion on that.) Tau and SM as Battle Brothers are the one that I think I've seen people have kittens about more than any other.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I always thought that space marines wer full of them selves.

Yeah, they really kind of are.

MarsNZ wrote:
Nope. AoC should be the default, with BB reserved for true brothers in arms

So IG and every Imperial Faction should be battle brothers then

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Heck, the latest SM codex even says sisters and marines have fought "side by side" (and they've done so in the Armegeddon campaign as well, if I recall correctly)

People always like to bring up Armageddon when this topic is discussed, but they always ignore the specifics, the Armageddon 3 website entry for the Flesh Tearers included this salient point written by Canones Carmina of the Order of Agent Shroud:
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies."

Capable of being present on the same battlefield without shooting eachother? Sometimes (see Armageddon3 website entry for the Order of the Argent Shroud), capable of the seemless integration represented by Battle-Brothers Ally Status? Hell no.

I always thought that space marines wer full of them selves. Now this confirms that they are a bunch of gakkers.

Well to be fair, It's Seth. His chapter has murdered SoB and IG during the Armaggedon campaign. You can't really blame all of the Space Marines for the Flesh Tearers. Even amongst other Blood Angel successors the Flesh Tearers are the black sheep.

GreyChaos wrote:

Well to be fair, It's Seth. His chapter has murdered SoB and IG during the Armaggedon campaign. You can't really blame all of the Space Marines for the Flesh Tearers.

I think you missed the point: the Canoness was clearly (or so I thought) stating that the Flesh Tearers attitude to the Sisters of Battle was not a surprise to her because she'd encountered it plenty of times before from "Space Marines" in general.

All this stuff regarding the SoB and their "tactical differences" or "cultural differences" with Space marines doesn't change the fact that they've EXPLICITLY been stated to have fought (and I quote) "side by side" with the marines on several occassions. That's not Allies of Convenience. If GW's reasoning (again, this IS in fact GW's reasoning. Or at least the answer they gave when asked for it, allegedly) for the Tau and the Space Marines are that they've fought together like that before, then why can't sisters and Marines fight like that on the tabletop when the fluff explicitly states they too have fought like that before?

(or was the quote "back to back"? Well, same thing, anyways)

 Gashrog wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:

Well to be fair, It's Seth. His chapter has murdered SoB and IG during the Armaggedon campaign. You can't really blame all of the Space Marines for the Flesh Tearers.

I think you missed the point: the Canoness was clearly (or so I thought) stating that the Flesh Tearers attitude to the Sisters of Battle was not a surprise to her because she'd encountered it plenty of times before from "Space Marines" in general.

I get the point, it's similar to Helreach and a few other stories I've read. The point I was trying to make is that while she appears to be making a generalization that Space Marines have a cavalier attitude towards the Sisters, there are plenty of other stories that will counter this point and the two factions will actually work in blissful cohesion. The particular example that was given involves the Flesh Tearers shortly after a brutal massacre of loyalist Imperials. Seth was ignoring both the IG and SoB commanders after the incident because he was trying to hide the shame of losing so many brothers to the thirst and rage. A better example could have been a SoB opinion towards a less brazen chapter.

For example the Black Templars returned to one of their old recruiting worlds with a secret "package" in tow. When they arrive the planet is beset by heretics whom are on the verge of creating a warp rift. SoB and IG are already present, as is an Inquisitor, and they believe the BT have come to assist them. The BT essentially lie and agree to help them retake a fortress. However, when the moment arrives for the BT to strike, they instead flee into the catacombs with their package. The package is revealed, though not intentionally, to be a fallen brother and the BT have brought him to this planet in order to entomb him within a dreadnought. In the end some of the BT return to help the SoB and the Inquisitor, but not before the majority of the sisters are dead and by this point you can see the BT have come only because they were cursed as traitors.

With that little story in mind you can say "Well the SM believe themselves to be so far beyond the SoB that they will rarely confide in them and therefore no "real" trust can ever be brokered." Others can counter that point in numerous ways, but is boils down to "Why didn't the BT just tell them sisters from the start?" The sisters wouldn't have stopped them, and the importance of resurrecting the wounded brother could be explained to the inquisitor. Sadly the BT didn't think it concerned the "lesser loyalists" and were more than willing to sacrifice the SoB without telling them why.

Aaaaand that's how you can support the SM not being battle-brothers with the SoB.

I always wish that GW had chosen different words to describe the levels of alliance. Something like tactical compliance; high, medium, and low. If they labeled them as such then it would make more sense to people.

Why are SM and SoB "allies of convenience" aka tactical compliance: medium? Because the SoB don't trust the SM plans and the SM don't integrate at all into the SoB command structure.

Why are IG then BB aka tactical compliance: high? Because SM can and have commanded IG forces at every level up to fleet command and down to squad. Also the SM is considered a son of their god...yeah.

Why are Tau and SM BB aka tactical compliance: high? Because when they do ally together they do so seamlessly and complement each other well.

Why are IG and CSM allies of convenience aka tactical compliance: medium? Because the CSM keeps trying to feed the trooper to his pet daemon

The only problem with that is that really, it's only the Ultraliberals - I mean, Ultramarines - who ally that closely with Tau. All other Marines remember that they're supposed to hate the Mutant, the Heretic and the Xeno.

Really, it should be Ultramarines having a special Chapter Tactic ability that lets them Battle Brother with Tau, while all others would be Allies of Convenience at best.

After all, Hellbrecht and the Templars worked rather well with the Sororitas at Helsreach Hive.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that is that really, it's only the Ultraliberals - I mean, Ultramarines - who ally that closely with Tau. All other Marines remember that they're supposed to hate the Mutant, the Heretic and the Xeno.

Really, it should be Ultramarines having a special Chapter Tactic ability that lets them Battle Brother with Tau, while all others would be Allies of Convenience at best.

After all, Hellbrecht and the Templars worked rather well with the Sororitas at Helsreach Hive.

It's really a chapter-by-chapter basis. For example, while the Salamanders don't view the Emperor as a god, they'd likely get along swimmingly with the Sisters due to being humanists and going above and beyond the call to protect any and all innocents. The Flesh Tearers are obviously on horrid terms with the Sisters after butchering them after a company went flying rodent gak from the Thirst.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only problem with that is that really, it's only the Ultraliberals - I mean, Ultramarines - who ally that closely with Tau. All other Marines remember that they're supposed to hate the Mutant, the Heretic and the Xeno.

Really, it should be Ultramarines having a special Chapter Tactic ability that lets them Battle Brother with Tau, while all others would be Allies of Convenience at best.

After all, Hellbrecht and the Templars worked rather well with the Sororitas at Helsreach Hive.

really there's only one (2 if you count the video game Fire Warrior) incident of the ultramarines working with the Tau, and that was basicly attempting to fight off a necron invasion. the obnly remarkable thing about that is when the Ultramarines ended up having to resort to exterminatus they let the Tau withdraw first.

So, really, it's almost as though GW knew that Tau would be at the top of the heap, power wise, this edition and made sure that Marines were still a viable army choice by letting them be in the same army.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's really a chapter-by-chapter basis. For example, while the Salamanders don't view the Emperor as a god, they'd likely get along swimmingly with the Sisters due to being humanists and going above and beyond the call to protect any and all innocents. The Flesh Tearers are obviously on horrid terms with the Sisters after butchering them after a company went flying rodent gak from the Thirst.

SoB aren't exactly humanists but they'll protect loyal imperial subjects if their mission permits it, ofc. What made them fit together so well with the Salamanders on Heletine was a despised common enemy (Black Legion), tight quarters and the love of meltas and flamers both have.

And the Flesh Tearers - they didn't attack the SoB. The Sisters took firing positions some distance from the militia defenses the orks were assaulting and gave the Flesh Tearers supporting fire while they closed in, then watched in horror as the berserking marines went over the barricades to kill the militia when running out of orks. The Canoness sensibly withdrew rather than waste her forces on fighting her allies of moments ago, but recommended Inquisitorial investigation (or orbital bombardment). The SoB aren't exactly the first or last Imperial force to decide it would be unwise to be anywhere near the same battlefield as the Flesh Tearers. Hell, even the orks on Armageddon started getting that idea... and when battle-crazed orks decide to leave the field before having to face madmen that rip their throats out with their teeth you know something is wrong.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's really a chapter-by-chapter basis. For example, while the Salamanders don't view the Emperor as a god, they'd likely get along swimmingly with the Sisters due to being humanists and going above and beyond the call to protect any and all innocents. The Flesh Tearers are obviously on horrid terms with the Sisters after butchering them after a company went flying rodent gak from the Thirst.

SoB aren't exactly humanists but they'll protect loyal imperial subjects if their mission permits it, ofc. What made them fit together so well with the Salamanders on Heletine was a despised common enemy (Black Legion), tight quarters and the love of meltas and flamers both have.

And the Flesh Tearers - they didn't attack the SoB. The Sisters took firing positions some distance from the militia defenses the orks were assaulting and gave the Flesh Tearers supporting fire while they closed in, then watched in horror as the berserking marines went over the barricades to kill the militia when running out of orks. The Canoness sensibly withdrew rather than waste her forces on fighting her allies of moments ago, but recommended Inquisitorial investigation (or orbital bombardment). The SoB aren't exactly the first or last Imperial force to decide it would be unwise to be anywhere near the same battlefield as the Flesh Tearers. Hell, even the orks on Armageddon started getting that idea... and when battle-crazed orks decide to leave the field before having to face madmen that rip their throats out with their teeth you know something is wrong.

Some sisters are actually murdered by Flesh Tearers after the incident of Gaius Point. After the murder of Gaius Point they request inquisitorial sanctions and investigations into the Flesh Tearers chapter.

 Melissia wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I always thought that space marines wer full of them selves.

Yeah, they really kind of are.

MarsNZ wrote:
Nope. AoC should be the default, with BB reserved for true brothers in arms

So IG and every Imperial Faction should be battle brothers then

No. Read again, you must have missed the entire point.

 alexc wrote:
1) Why are SM and Tau listed as battle brothers in the BRB - Don't Space Marines want to kill all the aliens?

2) Why are Space Marines and Sisters of Battle only allies of convenience?

I think the problem with the chart is that it works both ways.

The IG doesn't mesh well with xenos. The Tau do. It'd make sense if Tau could take IG gue'vessa as BB, but IG can't take Tau BB, because the IoM kills xenos.

Genestealer cults would work alongside Tyranids. Tyranids, however, could never work alongside standard IG. Tyranids can't ally.

There are a lot of combinations that make perfect sense with one side leading and one side following that don't work in reverse, and it seems GW picked at random which applied where.

MarsNZ wrote:
No. Read again, you must have missed the entire point.

Or you just didn't have one.

Imperial Guard are "battle brothers" with Sisters and Space Marines and Inquisition, in the lore.