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if you get a wave serpent in the open with no wargear that gives cover saves 1 ravager on average will cause 1 glance total from all of the firing.

So if you have 3 ravagers you are looking at killing 1 wave serpent on average from all of them firing.

Factor in cover and you are looking at 2-3 squads of trueborn, and 3 ravagers all firing at the same serpent to take it down. On simply average dice rolls.

its much easier to kill waveserpents with uber-grots, or haywire, or talos angry mode flailing. Of course then you have to get into assault...

EDIT-

so I will share how to cheese out against almost any non tau/space wolf army.


Forget allying with eldar for fortune.


Ally with necrons.

take Imotek, 5 immortals(or 7 warriors), 1 veil tek.

You now guarantee night fighting first turn, and probably turn 2 and 3. All your dark eldar units have night fighting.

When most armies you face have to roll to spot you, if you have nightshields, you are better off then having 1 unit fortuned.

I dub this Dark Eldar/Necron ally theme "Eternal Darkness"

From a fluff perspective i don't know how they can let necrons and dark eldar ally... necrons are mortal enemies of all the eldar... in fact the old ones created the eldar to wipe out the necrons...

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
From a fluff perspective i don't know how they can let necrons and dark eldar ally... necrons are mortal enemies of all the eldar... in fact the old ones created the eldar to wipe out the necrons...

First the necrons were enemies to the eldar when the eldar were underlings for the old ones (not any more) and the necrons were slaves to the C'Tan (definitely not anymore). The necrons got rid of the C'Tan and then fractured into a bunch of dynasties all with their own views. It is like the USA and USSR...now soviet union. We wanted to irradiate each other into non existence now the USA exports Angel episodes to the USSR in return for oil.

Also allies matrix is more about how well two groups work together than how much they like each other.

Necron allies are okay. Obviously CWE are overall better considering how well they place in the GTs, etc. Nightfighting is very good against some armies but it is ultimately a gimmick as there are a number of methods and armies which ignore it. Most armies will just searchlight you up and kill the units they wanted to anyways. Still it was very on topic as one of the armies it would severely limit their range is the CWE.

From a fluff perspective dark eldar and eldar are mortal enemies, and dark eldar hate psykers but theres a lot of armies running around with the baron+kabalites+beastpack+eldar psychic friends fortune network...

so lets ignore fluff, as sadly fluff has little to do with most actual games of 40k being played, especially on a tournament or competitive level

blaktoof wrote:
From a fluff perspective dark eldar and eldar are mortal enemies, and dark eldar hate psykers but theres a lot of armies running around with the baron+kabalites+beastpack+eldar psychic friends fortune network...

so lets ignore fluff, as sadly fluff has little to do with most actual games of 40k being played, especially on a tournament or competitive level

I think the craft world codex has them as harder enemies than the dark eldar codex say.
I like the fact they are battlebrothers, it shows how eldar look upon other races; even dark/craftworld difference is unimportant if it comes to strike down alien upstarts or chaos.

Dark Eldar and Necrons can't ally, they are Come the Apocalypse.

blaktoof wrote:
From a fluff perspective dark eldar and eldar are mortal enemies, and dark eldar hate psykers but theres a lot of armies running around with the baron+kabalites+beastpack+eldar psychic friends fortune network...

so lets ignore fluff, as sadly fluff has little to do with most actual games of 40k being played, especially on a tournament or competitive level

You're incorrect. Dark Eldar and Eldar are not "mortal enemies". At the very most, you could call them "Distrustful Cousins".

Your views may be representative of the old fluff of GW, but the fluff has changed to better accommodate the Allies rule.

Don't whine, accept it and move on.

Iranna.

blaktoof wrote:
From a fluff perspective dark eldar and eldar are mortal enemies, and dark eldar hate psykers but theres a lot of armies running around with the baron+kabalites+beastpack+eldar psychic friends fortune network...

so lets ignore fluff, as sadly fluff has little to do with most actual games of 40k being played, especially on a tournament or competitive level

Again where do the DE ever say they hate the necrons and consider them mortal enemies? They fought them when they were an entirely different set of necrons, ie slaves to the C'Tan and the DE are nothing like those eldar anyways.

The DE btw do not "hate" psykers. Where are you getting that? They have purged psykers from their society to avoid warp daemon influences in Commorragh. Why would they can about psykers not in Commorragh?

Also allies have little with how much you like someone. Do you think Pakistan likes the USA? The answer is definitely a very big no but USA soldiers have fought side by side with them. Heck there were USA soldiers training Taliban just 3 decades ago and you think a DE shouldn't be able to fight beside a CWE psyker?

Totally off topic though, so sorry OP.

blaktoof wrote:
if you get a wave serpent in the open with no wargear that gives cover saves 1 ravager on average will cause 1 glance total from all of the firing.

So if you have 3 ravagers you are looking at killing 1 wave serpent on average from all of them firing.

Factor in cover and you are looking at 2-3 squads of trueborn, and 3 ravagers all firing at the same serpent to take it down. On simply average dice rolls.

its much easier to kill waveserpents with uber-grots, or haywire, or talos angry mode flailing. Of course then you have to get into assault...

Also incorrect.

1 Ravager = 2 hits.

50/50 change to damage = 1 Damaging Result.

4 to Glance, 5/6 to Pen, meaning you have a 2/3 chance to pen if you cause a damage result. This would mean that, on average, a Ravager will get ~1 Pen a turn against a Wave Serpent, which would then be crippled on a 4+ (assuming shield is down and only a 5+ cover). Therefore, on average, it will take 2 Ravagers to down a Wave Serpent.

You're much better using Haywire Wyches to kill Serpents.

Iranna.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Pretty much topic... with all our anti mech (lances) on paper i fail to see the problem...

You have to play aginst them a few times to see how utterly horribly broken Wave Serpents are..................

Even if you go first, their cheese shield guns ignore your jink save....

You really need alot of luck to try and kill them before they take your army apart.

incorrect.

I was considering ws shield up, a ravager will average 1 glance not 1 pen.

blaktoof wrote:
incorrect.

I was considering ws shield up, a ravager will average 1 glance not 1 pen.

Which will almost never be the case if the Eldar player goes first considering it is probably the best weapon for downing Dark Eldar vehicles in the Eldar Codex.

If the Eldar player is not shooting his shields then don't complain that you are only glancing his Wave Serpents.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
Dark Eldar and Necrons can't ally, they are Come the Apocalypse.

blaktoof wrote:
From a fluff perspective dark eldar and eldar are mortal enemies, and dark eldar hate psykers but theres a lot of armies running around with the baron+kabalites+beastpack+eldar psychic friends fortune network...

so lets ignore fluff, as sadly fluff has little to do with most actual games of 40k being played, especially on a tournament or competitive level

You're incorrect. Dark Eldar and Eldar are not "mortal enemies". At the very most, you could call them "Distrustful Cousins".

Your views may be representative of the old fluff of GW, but the fluff has changed to better accommodate the Allies rule.

Don't whine, accept it and move on.

Iranna.

those views are representative of the current Dark Eldar fluff.

blaktoof wrote:


those views are representative of the current Dark Eldar fluff.

No they are not.

They are representative of someone still stuck in a pre-6th edition mind set.

There are several instances showing Dark Eldar gratuitously assisting the Eldar. Would a mortal enemy intentionally assist his enemy?

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

blaktoof wrote:


those views are representative of the current Dark Eldar fluff.

No they are not.

They are representative of someone still stuck in a pre-6th edition mind set.

There are several instances showing Dark Eldar gratuitously assisting the Eldar. Would a mortal enemy intentionally assist his enemy?

Iranna.

Agreed and its also very clear that this is the case in the 5th Ed Codex, although the Dark Eldar do find the relief of Iyanden as amusing aside and likely a proof of their superiroity ot their "cousins" who are dabling in Necromancy to prop up their dying culture.

I disagree with that, and the few times it is mentioned that Dark eldar are even amused by eldar [ie haemonoculli coven beying amused by iyanden necromancy].

To say they are mortal enemies may be false, but they are not "battle brothers"

blaktoof wrote:
I disagree with that, and the few times it is mentioned that Dark eldar are even amused by eldar [ie haemonoculli coven beying amused by iyanden necromancy].

To say they are mortal enemies may be false, but they are not "battle brothers"

In saying that you'd have more of a case.

However, I'd still disagree. At the end of the day, they are still kin. Whatever strife they have between one another can easily be put aside to teach the other races their place.

Iranna.

the only mention in the dark eldar codex of helping the eldar comes under " an unexpected ally" not "brother in need"

Sounds more like an ally of convenience than a battle brother.

CWE and exodites, battle brothers sure.

CWE and dark eldar...not so much the battle brothers.

blaktoof wrote:
the only mention in the dark eldar codex of helping the eldar comes under " an unexpected ally" not "brother in need"

Sounds more like an ally of convenience than a battle brother.

CWE and exodites, battle brothers sure.

CWE and dark eldar...not so much the battle brothers.

You then look at the Eldar codex and see the Dark Eldar and Eldar unite to face off against the Thousand Sons who had invaded the Webway.

Also look at the story whereby the Dark Eldar and Eldar united to attack an Imperial World in the Eldar codex.

Sure, there are instances where they fight one another. That doesn't mean they aren't battle brothers, that means that they have differences which will be put aside in the interests of their race's survival.

Iranna.

Using that logic every army is battle brothers with every other army excluding tyranids.

There are 1 or 2 instances of just about any army teaming up with any other army to stop some other army.

regardless this is way off topic of the thread so I will be done commenting on fluff.

 ansacs wrote:
USSR...now soviet union. [...] now the USA exports Angel episodes to the USSR in return for oil.

The USSR hasn't existed for 25 years. The country you buy oil from is called Russia.

 Iranna wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
incorrect.

I was considering ws shield up, a ravager will average 1 glance not 1 pen.

Which will almost never be the case if the Eldar player goes first considering it is probably the best weapon for downing Dark Eldar vehicles in the Eldar Codex.

If the Eldar player is not shooting his shields then don't complain that you are only glancing his Wave Serpents.

Iranna.

The problem is that if his Shields are down all the Ravagers should be dead. On average a Serpent firing its Shield just flat out kills a Ravager (Venoms and Raiders have no chance). Depending on what other threats there are in the army (notably stuff like Beast packs which require immediate attention) the Eldar player could easily just not fire his Shields at all, 4 Serpents (conservative number for a Serpent Spam list) just firing their Shields should be enough to drop 2-3 Ravagers and any support elements (Wraithknights etc) should round it off for a clean 3. Often that's all the Lances that DE have, since most people take Venoms, at which point its just cleanup unless you have to deal with a Beast Pack etc.

MarsNZ wrote:
The USSR hasn't existed for 25 years. The country you buy oil from is called Russia.

Exactly and the necrons are not the slaves of the C'Tan and are now dynasties with their own agendas...I wonder if there is a parallel there and I purposely used the name USSR for the region known as Russia for hundreds of years despite the fact that the USSR was composed of more countries than just Russia?

Heck even parts of the USSR have split from Russia and formed their own groups. I couldn't have picked a much better parallel.