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I wanted to swing a tactic by you guys.

About to try this squad in a battle.

Tarzyn the Infinite - 175 Points
- Empathic Obliterator
- Relentless (and his unit)
- MSS
- Scoring Unit
- Surrogate Hosts

Zhandrek - 185 Points
- Staff of Light
- Phase Shifter
- Resurrection Orb
- Sempiternal wave
- Adaptive Tactics(allows for hit and run, furious charge,ect)
- Counter Tactics
- Phased Reinforcements

Deathmarks - 190 points
- 10x Deathmarks

Harbingers of Eternity - 140 points
- 2x Chronometron
- 2x Time splinter cloaks

Night Scythe Transport - 100 points

Total: 790 points

I have considered replacing Tarzyn for an overlord with phaeron, but that takes away the unit's ability to score and also a very good ability to deny a warlord kill.

The result is that the Zhandrek can provide a bulletshield for the death mark squad with his 2+ save and 3+ invuln.

The harbingers can Look out, Sir for some of the invulnerable saves on zhandrek and reroll any 2 D6 each phase. That can be reanimation rolls, saves or hit and run rolls (I2 become I4 statistically).

Theory: fly in and deploy your deathmarks from the nightscythe, mark a unit that's going to cause you trouble and rapid fire it.

Wait out one turn of the enemy's shooting phase (this is usually possible).
I have found to have more luck against large blast weapons in these cases by looking out for 8 or 9 of the deathmarks and taking their reanimation protocols rather than letting your opponent get more hits between each large blast he fires. Running away is not a huge issue as long as 4 of the squad stays alive.

On average you'll get half the squad back, then you can reroll 2 of the reanimations.

Assuming that the unit doesn't get wiped out in the same turn it deploys, you can now charge.

This now allows you to hug units for safety in combat, using your 2+ and 3++ saves for security against the meaner things. Then you can hit and run (with a reroll) out of the combat 3d6 in your opponent's assault phase. It's now your movement phase, so you can then move, rapid fire your deathmarks and with relentless charge back into combat.

Man, that's a mean unit!

One problem: For almost half of a typical competitive tournament points level you're still relying on a reserve roll of a 3+ to come in Turn 2. So 1/3 of the time this awesome unit doesn't come in Turn 2.

One top of this you're not in combat until Turn 3 and so you've only got Turns 3, 4, and 5 to do what you're looking to do.

However, going second (as usual) is the only saving grace because you can hit and run out of combat, move in your movement phase, and run in your shooting phase to claim an objective. This is nice because if gives you an average claim/contest range of 20".

Nice unit though!

Also, you don't get a reroll each phase. You only get two rerolls the whole game I'm pretty sure.

toocool61 wrote:
Also, you don't get a reroll each phase. You only get two rerolls the whole game I'm pretty sure.

I thought that too. But the rule states the bearer can reroll any of his or his unit's D6 each phase.

toocool61 wrote:
Also, you don't get a reroll each phase. You only get two rerolls the whole game I'm pretty sure.

Untrue. Chronometer is 1D6 reroll per phase. It's only a 1D6 roll so it cannot be used to reroll difficult terrain movement, leadership, or anything that's 2D6 or 3d6. Only things that you roll 1D6 for - in this case where there's 2 Chronometers, it's 2 separate 1D6s and not 1 2D6.

You also cannot use the Chronometer to reroll reserve rolls.

 Unholyllama wrote:

toocool61 wrote:
Also, you don't get a reroll each phase. You only get two rerolls the whole game I'm pretty sure.

Untrue. Chronometer is 1D6 reroll per phase. It's only a 1D6 roll so it cannot be used to reroll difficult terrain movement, leadership, or anything that's 2D6 or 3d6. Only things that you roll 1D6 for - in this case where there's 2 Chronometers, it's 2 separate 1D6s and not 1 2D6.

You also cannot use the Chronometer to reroll reserve rolls.

I thought the BRB stated that in order to reroll a ld test or such you needed to reroll both dice? Wouldn't 2 chronos satisfy this?

sonicaucie wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:

toocool61 wrote:
Also, you don't get a reroll each phase. You only get two rerolls the whole game I'm pretty sure.

Untrue. Chronometer is 1D6 reroll per phase. It's only a 1D6 roll so it cannot be used to reroll difficult terrain movement, leadership, or anything that's 2D6 or 3d6. Only things that you roll 1D6 for - in this case where there's 2 Chronometers, it's 2 separate 1D6s and not 1 2D6.

You also cannot use the Chronometer to reroll reserve rolls.

I thought the BRB stated that in order to reroll a ld test or such you needed to reroll both dice? Wouldn't 2 chronos satisfy this?

No. Each chronotek is still just a single die roll and they cannot be combined to reroll a roll that is more than a single die.

Another way to look at this is that each chronometer activation is an ability. Triggering that ability multiple times doesn't enhance the original ability but causes it to be put on a stack or queue where they are done in a particular order separately.

The only ability that I'm aware of that allows a reroll of any single die from a 1d6, 2d6, or 3d6 roll is Fateweaver's ability.

I was in a YMDC thread about this a while ago.

Long story short, 1d6 + 1d6 =/= 2d6.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I was in a YMDC thread about this a while ago.

Long story short, 1d6 + 1d6 =/= 2d6.

I guess it's not such a bad thing. With leadership 10 and planning your moves ahead of time, it should be easy to function without rerolling 2d6.

I don't see the point of attaching all of these characters to a unit of Deathmarks.
Is there some kind combo with HfH that you're hoping to exploit here?

 skoffs wrote:
I don't see the point of attaching all of these characters to a unit of Deathmarks.
Is there some kind combo with HfH that you're hoping to exploit here?

This is what got me too but I got distracted by the Chronotek confusion.

Really, neither IC belongs or provides much of anything to Deathmarks. Trazyn's ability to make them scoring is a gross misuse of points and Zahndrekh can't use his counter tactics while he's in reserve and even then, you usually want him not in in the front of the battle in such a way.

IMO, the only true IC that can benefit deathmarks is a Destroyer Lord since he'll convey preferred enemy. Even then, I'd rather run 2 Overlords and max out my RCs so that I can just put a second despairtek into the unit to make sure the marked unit(s) die.

Yeah, too many points in one place for too little return imho. For 765pts you can have 3x "death and despair" units (2x despair harbingers + 5x deathmarks) in nightscythes that will do far more damage to the opposition and has resilience in redundancy.

 skoffs wrote:
I don't see the point of attaching all of these characters to a unit of Deathmarks.
Is there some kind combo with HfH that you're hoping to exploit here?

From my experience, 2+ and 3++ saves with lords, overlords and chronoteks are some of the most resilient units in the game. Someone said that 3x 2 despairteks with 5 deathmarks was more resilient through redundancy, but that's not true. The opponent just needs to have the capacity to kill three 6 man MEQ units within 24 inches.

I usually field Trazyn or Zhandrek anyway. I'm really only buying the harbingers and one of those HQs, which is a lot of points(~360). But it's adding a lot to the unit in terms of resilience, ability to score, claim/deny range, ect. You don't actually have to put Zhandrek in the unit to use hit and run, but it's a lot better for the unit to include him since he's probably the most resilient lord in the game in terms of not going down + he brings the res orb.

So for the price of about ~360 points you're adding to this deathmark unit
4+ resurrection
3 wounds protected by 2+ and 3++
2 wounds protected by 3++
3 wounds on a Warlord that has a very low chance of dying
Relentless
Hit and Run
Scoring
Re-roll any 2 D6 each phase

The biggest issue for this unit is not being able to charge after coming in.

But I have managed to field this squad and win.

The Army List was:

As above: 790 points
5xWarriors - 65 points
5xWarriors - 65 points

RCDI
3 Lords - 360 points (120 points each)
Warscythe
Sepiternal Weave
Phase Shifter
MSS
+ tesseract (20 points)
+ res orb (30 points)

Vangard Obyron - 160 points

Total 1490 points

Yes, I am aware that this is putting all your eggs in one basket. The opponent was a very shooty SM army. I can't remember the specifics, but there were devastator squads with plasma cannons, tactical squads, quad gun, aegis defence line, a librarian and such.

The result was that the turn it came in, the DMs marked the HQ squad for death which died under sustained fire from the tesla destructor, SoL and DM RF sniper rifles.

RCDI Ghost walk mantled to the location of DMs and sustained a lot of the fire from the heavy weapons. But they managed to survive with just one lord death.

The DM squad then moved towards a tactical squad, rapid fired and charged. So, 20 sniper shots + 20 MEQ attacks + 4 power weapon attacks + 4 strength 5 attacks with Empathic oblitator + 4 aeonstave attacks + D3 MSS attacks. The squad died. The RCDI charged a devastator squad and killed them with 8 Strength 7 AP1 attacks + 2xD3 MSS + 5 Strength 7 AP1 counter blows from Obyron.

I sustained three losses to my deathmarks from plasma cannons while out in the open after this.

At this point, the enemy was attempting to run and get range with his tactical squad; while devastators tried to stay still to avoid snap fire. There was a devastator squad 3 levels up a building. I measured the range required to scale the building(22 inches) from combat with a tactical squad and made the decision to not fire my sniper rifles(so the tactical squad would survive), engage in combat and use hit and run to scale the building to the devastator squad. The RCDI charged another devastator squad.

With a reroll of the D6, I made hit and run while my RCDI consolidated towards the tactical squad exiting combat while the DMs ran towards the devastator squad at the top of the building.

In short, the DMs scaled the building (22 inches) in a very short space of time, killed the devastators while the RCDI finished off their previous victims they were using as a bulletshield from the devastators.

The player may have stood a better chance had he primaried the DMs rather than the RCDI when they arrived.

This list by the end of the game lost 2 lords and 4 deathmarks.

The royal court was very fortunate to roll 3 out of 4 of its reanimation protocols when it died under the sustained plasma cannon fire.

sonicaucie wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
I don't see the point of attaching all of these characters to a unit of Deathmarks.
Is there some kind combo with HfH that you're hoping to exploit here?

From my experience, 2+ and 3++ saves with lords, overlords and chronoteks are some of the most resilient units in the game. Someone said that 3x 2 despairteks with 5 deathmarks was more resilient through redundancy, but that's not true. The opponent just needs to have the capacity to kill three 6 man MEQ units within 24 inches.

...
Who said 3x Double Death & Despair squads were resilient? They're not meant to be resilient. They're a kamikaze unit. They're meant to kill first and then be killed themselves in retaliation.
(And you never stick them all together if you can avoid it. The point of having MSU Deathmarks is for the multiple marks. If you've got them all together in one big unit, you only get one HfH mark. Three small units mean three dead enemy units.)

it's adding a lot to the unit in terms of resilience, ability to score, claim/deny range, ect.
[...]
So for the price of about ~360 points you're adding to this deathmark unit [...]

...
The question remains, why Deathmarks?

Deathmarks and a Destroyer Lord? Combo.
Deathmarks and Harbingers of Despair? Obvious combo.
Deathmarks and Trazyn + Zahndrekh + 2x Chrono-teks? ... not a combo (just keeps the Deathmarks alive longer... for some reason).
Sticking these deathstar characters with Deathmarks does nothing for them that wouldn't better be served by keeping them separate.
Sticking them with, say, 20 Warriors would not only be a more efficient use of points, but would free up the Deathmarks to break into smaller squads to engage multiple targets, the way they're meant to be used.

Besides, if you want resiliency, you're better off just sticking with the full RCDI in a hijacked Ghost Ark.

 skoffs wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
I don't see the point of attaching all of these characters to a unit of Deathmarks.
Is there some kind combo with HfH that you're hoping to exploit here?

From my experience, 2+ and 3++ saves with lords, overlords and chronoteks are some of the most resilient units in the game. Someone said that 3x 2 despairteks with 5 deathmarks was more resilient through redundancy, but that's not true. The opponent just needs to have the capacity to kill three 6 man MEQ units within 24 inches.

...
Who said 3x Double Death & Despair squads were resilient? They're not meant to be resilient. They're a kamikaze unit. They're meant to kill first and then be killed themselves in retaliation.
(And you never stick them all together if you can avoid it. The point of having MSU Deathmarks is for the multiple marks. If you've got them all together in one big unit, you only get one HfH mark. Three small units mean three dead enemy units.)

I said it and basically, yes they are suicide units. My comment on resiliency was meant in regards of interceptor fire, which is the largest bane of your typical D&D squad. I'd still take the 3 D&D units over the deathstar because I don't care much what happens to them after they land and get their first shots off. 6 AP1 flamers that wound on a 2+, 30 sniper shots, and 12 S7 TL tesla shots are generally going to erase a good portion of your opponent's army if it isn't meched up (which you have plenty of other toys to solve that problem). Even if they wipe out all three squads, you still have three nightscythes from that allocation of points and odds are that a couple of crypteks are going to stand back up, forcing them to divert a unit to dealing with a single 30 point model.

If it works for you, then awesome! Keep using it, and have fun doing it. I hate when people come in and squash an idea that somebody has for a unit that they have fun with - which is pretty much what I did earlier. I would say, try the 3x D&D units a couple times at some point and give them a good comparison before totally making up your mind. Personally I like two D&D units and I put the points of the third into other things that are a bit more balanced for the army.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I hate when people come in and squash an idea that somebody has for a unit that they have fun with - which is pretty much what I did earlier.

...
Yeah, guilty, too.
:/
I guess it still gets to me when I see less effective uses of things on the tactics board (flash backs to when I first started playing, searching the board for tactics on how to use things as a new player... "Lychguard are awesome! You should take 30 in every list!" "Huh, well, no one's disagreeing with them, so I guess it's legit!" ... ... ... such pain)
So now when I see things that make me go, "What?! Why would you play them that way?!", I feel the need to comment so anybody who doesn't know any better doesn't fall into a similar trap.

But in regards to Interceptor danger, whenever possible I tried to start something on the table with a Veil (normally 2x Storm-teks an a Veil-tek) to alpha strike anything that might threaten my guys arriving from turn 2. Sometimes it's worth considering sticking a Veil with a D&D squad instead of a Nightscythe, just for that very reason (yes, riskier because of the scatter, but at least you don't have to worry about Interceptor.

 skoffs wrote:


Deathmarks and a Destroyer Lord? Combo.
Deathmarks and Harbingers of Despair? Obvious combo.
Deathmarks and Trazyn + Zahndrekh + 2x Chrono-teks? ... not a combo (just keeps the Deathmarks alive longer... for some reason).
Sticking these deathstar characters with Deathmarks does nothing for them that wouldn't better be served by keeping them separate.

The combo is in relentless and hit and run and the harbingers are not just there for added resiliency, but to bring the I2 H&R to I4 statistically.

If you want more marks, then bring more DM squads, but this squad's gimmick is in the fact that it can rapid fire its sniper rifles and then charge.

"Why not warriors or immortals?"

Because warriors and immortals don't consistently wound models on 4+ and rend on 6. Deathmarks are probably one of the few or only sniper units in the game that can move and rapid fire their sniper rifles. Coupled with Relentless from Phaeron and Hit and Run from Zhandrek; you can now move, rapid fire, assault and move out of the assault 3d6 because relentless allows you to charge after shooting and hit and run allows you to leave combat in your opponent's assault phase.