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If I want to charge 2+ units that are already locked in combat, would that still count as a disordered charge? If I want to avoid a disordered charge by only charging one of the units, could my pile-in moves still get me engaged with both units?

For example, a unit of Termagants is in combat with a unit of Tactical Marines and a unit of Assault Marines. Is there any way I can charge into the ongoing combat, get the +1 attack for charging, and still fight both units of Marines?

FOr 1) Yes, it is still a disordered charge. I didnt spot an exception within "already locked"
2) Pile in moves allow you to get into b2b with any enemy model, so yes this is possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
FOr 1) Yes, it is still a disordered charge. I didnt spot an exception within "already locked"
2) Pile in moves allow you to get into b2b with any enemy model, so yes this is possible.

2. Pile in rules follow the same rules as charging, which means you cannot base an enemy you didnt charge.

Page 23 disagrees. Explicit permission in the first bullet point.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 23 disagrees. Explicit permission in the first bullet point.

And read the first paragraph after those 3 bullet points.....

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 23 disagrees. Explicit permission in the first bullet point.

And read the first paragraph after those 3 bullet points.....

And nothing in that first paragraph changes the *explicit* permission given by the first one.
When in a multiple combat, you must use the charge rules for multiple combat.

remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models

Like I said.

I understand your argument.

Bullet point 1 follows the rules for charging. [...cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging. pg 21] Your explicit permission has conditions to it.

So your pile in move cannot move into contact with a unit you are not charging. If you are only charging 1 unit of a multi combat, then you cannot Pile In to a different unit.

It says you cannot pile into units not already involved in the assault, I believe the OP is describing a scenario in which he is charging another unit into what is already a multiple combat so rigeld2 would be correct.

The OP is trying to avoid a multi-charge situation, by only charging 1 of the units in combat to gain the bonus attacks. Therefore if you are only charging the single unit, you would follow the rules for charging that single unit, which disallows Piling In to a second unit.

If the OP multi-charges, then you would use the charge rules for multi-charging which makes that Pile In move perfectly legal.

Fragile wrote:
So your pile in move cannot move into contact with a unit you are not charging.

Models piling-in are never charging - the Charge Sub-Phase is over. So, by your argument, you can never pile-in to base contact, ever.

Instead, your argument is overridden by the specific rules for piling in, as rigeld2 points out. These are more specific and not compatible, and so override.

Pyrian wrote:

Fragile wrote:
So your pile in move cannot move into contact with a unit you are not charging.

Models piling-in are never charging - the Charge Sub-Phase is over. So, by your argument, you can never pile-in to base contact, ever.

Instead, your argument is overridden by the specific rules for piling in, as rigeld2 points out. These are more specific and not compatible, and so override.

Those bullet points say they follow the same rules for charging. You have shown nothing that allows you to base a second unit, since you are following the rules for charging a single unit.

"Following the same rules as charging" I concur that if you only declare the charge against a single enemy unit engaged in that multiple assault, so as to avoid the penalties of a Disorganized Charge, you don't get to Pile In to and attach any other enemy units in that combat that round.

It doesn't say 'follow the same rules as charging'.

The actual quote: "These moves follow the same rules as moving charging models" (p.23).

P.21 has these rules (closest to closest, remain in coherency, allowed within 1" of enemy etc).

The caveat with pile in states "A Pile in move cannot be used to contact units that are not already involved in the assault" (p.23)

Both marine units are part of the assault. I believe Rigeld2 is correct.

Why are you ignoring the rule on pg 21 that says.

[Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging.]

That is the second paragraph under "Moving Charging Models".

Re-read Pyrians response to another of your posts.

He did not address any new issue.

The rule states that Pile In [These moves follow the same rules as moving charging models, except that they are not slowed by difficult terrain] pg 23.

Moving Charging Models (pg 21.) state that you cannot base a unit you are not charging.


So far you are trying to ignore that rule. The OP is simply trying to avoid the disordered charge penalty by using a Pile In move. That does not work.

So a unit that is charged may not pile in because they haven't charged anything?

Fragile wrote:
Why are you ignoring the rule on pg 21 that says.

[Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging.]

That is the second paragraph under "Moving Charging Models".

During a pile-in move you are not 'charging' any unit. With this in mind I assume this line:

"a Pile In move cannot be used to contact units that are not already involved in the assault."

...is a replacement for the embolden portion of the charge rule. It is listed as an exception to the normal charge moves and would be unneeded if it were not intended to do so.

Without disregarding or adjusting(as I do) this part of the moving charging models rules, pile-in moves do not function at all as you are not currently charging. Seeing it as an adaptation from 'charging' to 'in assault with' or 'assaulting' seems to be the best way to functionally account for all the rules and piece them together into a working system.