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So I guess the MS is worshiped by SM? I know in space hulk when you unjam a bolter the guy sometimes goes "the machine spirit has answered my prayers" but what the hell is is?

PS. It's also in a special rule...

The machine spirit isn't usually being worshipped. Prayers are like a set of instructions you chant to guide you through unjamming the bolter and if the bolter is semisentient like most of the IoM gear is to coax it not to try eating you and to work like you want. There may also be lines thanking the emperor that it unjammed and for the use of his holy bolter.

A notable exception is the mechanicum which does warship the machine spirit though their spirit is sort of a galaxy wide one with facets in all machines sort of thing.

The Machine Spirit is the anima of your wargear.

According to Imperial belief, all technology created by the Mechanicum is possessed of a soul of sorts. This soul isn't worshipped, as such - it's not a god. However, it is respected. Marines, in general (although there are exceptions) don't sacrifice Mars Bars to their bolters before battle, but they do observe the Rituals of Maintenance regularly, ensure that their wargear is clean, and thank them for good service.

As said above.

The Imperium commonly believes that even simple machines like chainswords and space marine bikes have "machine spirits", much like a druid in a fantasy game would lovingly pat a tree and speak to it, regardless of the fact that it's just a tree. It gets confusing because there are also things in the game universe called "Machine Spirits" which are very basic AI computer brains.

I always thought of machine spirits as being a way of saying it has a processor in it. For a tank the processor set up is complex and has a near full AI to control power output, optimize the running of the engine, and even fire a weapon. In a chain sword the processor is very small and relatively simple and just optimizes power, makes the sword spin when needed and not when sheathed, etc. The IoM says prafers to them because the user has almost no understanding of how they work and needs to use it and upkeep it. Therefore a chant or prayer is the best way to remember and to make the upkeep a holy ritual will ensure it is done. Also the IoM has been infected by self mutating sentient computer virus' for ~20K years now so your processor in your tank may actually decide it's job is to kill all humans and go on a bender...

 ansacs wrote:
I always thought of machine spirits as being a way of saying it has a processor in it. For a tank the processor set up is complex and has a near full AI to control power output, optimize the running of the engine, and even fire a weapon. In a chain sword the processor is very small and relatively simple and just optimizes power, makes the sword spin when needed and not when sheathed, etc. The IoM says prafers to them because the user has almost no understanding of how they work and needs to use it and upkeep it. Therefore a chant or prayer is the best way to remember and to make the upkeep a holy ritual will ensure it is done. Also the IoM has been infected by self mutating sentient computer virus' for ~20K years now so your processor in your tank may actually decide it's job is to kill all humans and go on a bender...

Well... not an AI unless you are using Abominable Intelligence; some of the more "miraculous" acts committed by specific machine spirits might well be the side effect of using actual live animal (including human) brains to act as CPU that retained some form of awareness beyond instance. Or maybe the warp's doing it or, or maybe it's the void dragon (but how?), or whatever.

lcmiracle wrote:Well... not an AI unless you are using Abominable Intelligence; some of the more "miraculous" acts committed by specific machine spirits might well be the side effect of using actual live animal (including human) brains to act as CPU that retained some form of awareness beyond instance. Or maybe the warp's doing it or, or maybe it's the void dragon (but how?), or whatever.

Actually the entire WH40K universe brings up an interesting question of where to put the line between an artificial intelligence and natural intelligence. How different is a space marine from an iron man, really? Is the machine spirit in a landraider considered an artificial intelligence or a human brain? The processors used by the IoM are very strange and appear to be largely based on the human brain using cloning/vat growth techniques. Is there residual human traits that you need to be careful of or they will go sentient and emotional and if they do would they start drawing chaos daemons and be corrupted by the warp?

regarding the mechanium itself, I've always figured on them preserving a lot of old knowledge but it being so ritualized and shrouded in "faith" that they no longer truely understand it. Maybe I'm strange but I kinda like the idea of mechanus priests chanting things like "EEEEEE equals MC squaaaaared!" but not udnerstanding what it actually means.

BrianDavion wrote:regarding the mechanium itself, I've always figured on them preserving a lot of old knowledge but it being so ritualized and shrouded in "faith" that they no longer truely understand it. Maybe I'm strange but I kinda like the idea of mechanus priests chanting things like "EEEEEE equals MC squaaaaared!" but not udnerstanding what it actually means.

It's actually pretty simple. The rituals arose from mnemonics used during the Dark Age of Technology that were specifically intended to enable a post-collapse society to use the technology. The ancient Terrans literally said, "Well, things are going to schist. We'd better make things into songs and chants so they're easier to remember."

ansacs wrote:

lcmiracle wrote:Well... not an AI unless you are using Abominable Intelligence; some of the more "miraculous" acts committed by specific machine spirits might well be the side effect of using actual live animal (including human) brains to act as CPU that retained some form of awareness beyond instance. Or maybe the warp's doing it or, or maybe it's the void dragon (but how?), or whatever.

Actually the entire WH40K universe brings up an interesting question of where to put the line between an artificial intelligence and natural intelligence. How different is a space marine from an iron man, really? Is the machine spirit in a landraider considered an artificial intelligence or a human brain? The processors used by the IoM are very strange and appear to be largely based on the human brain using cloning/vat growth techniques. Is there residual human traits that you need to be careful of or they will go sentient and emotional and if they do would they start drawing chaos daemons and be corrupted by the warp?

It's actually very simple. Artificial Intelligence is forbidden because the Iron Men (AI soldiers) went all Skynet on the pre-fall AdMech. Since then, it was forbidden to create 'iron without souls' - that's why Servitors are a thing. They're effectively robots, but because they had a human life before they were changed, they are deemed to be 'wholesome' and 'safe'. Their human soul protects them against electronic brain degradation, or something like that - they don't get caught in logic loops and go Skynet because they have that human element to break the loop.

Praise be to you, mighty Windows 7, your spirit has faltered in the past, but you remain true to me and to the tower which you serve. Take my humble offering of a disk de-fragment so that you may ever operate smoothly and aid me in my darkest hours.

Furyou Miko wrote:It's actually very simple. Artificial Intelligence is forbidden because the Iron Men (AI soldiers) went all Skynet on the pre-fall AdMech. Since then, it was forbidden to create 'iron without souls' - that's why Servitors are a thing. They're effectively robots, but because they had a human life before they were changed, they are deemed to be 'wholesome' and 'safe'. Their human soul protects them against electronic brain degradation, or something like that - they don't get caught in logic loops and go Skynet because they have that human element to break the loop.

A computational system does not have to be made of metals and silicon. You can make them from proteins and lipids (similar to human brains) and in 40K they do seem to make entirely artificial versions without taking the brain out of a person. If this has any form of intelligence then it is an artificial intelligence. Therefore while they no longer make iron men they are making entirely artificial intelligence's and then programming them, they are called space marines. At their basic idea level the astartes are very very similar to the iron men...they even went all "skynet" on the imperium.

When a space marine paints his armour black to be in the Deathwatch they leave one shoulder with the space marines original chapter markings to not offend the armour's machine spirit.

Praise be to you, mighty Windows 7, your spirit has faltered in the past, but you remain true to me and to the tower which you serve. Take my humble offering of a disk de-fragment so that you may ever operate smoothly and aid me in my darkest hours.

Exactly, lol. Except in the IoM they do that for something as simple as a vox-caster or lasgun.

Space Wolves routinely give their tanks offerings of blood and flesh . . . just saying.

 ansacs wrote:

A computational system does not have to be made of metals and silicon. You can make them from proteins and lipids (similar to human brains) and in 40K they do seem to make entirely artificial versions without taking the brain out of a person. If this has any form of intelligence then it is an artificial intelligence. Therefore while they no longer make iron men they are making entirely artificial intelligence's and then programming them, they are called space marines. At their basic idea level the astartes are very very similar to the iron men...they even went all "skynet" on the imperium.

Yes, but the Astartes fell because of human weakness, which is allowable, because the flesh is weak. All hail the Omnissiah.

What, you expected logic?

Anyway, Astartes have never been grown in vats. They always take human children and turn them into Astartes.

The other advantage of using biological components in computational units is that souls tend to react explosively to Scrapcode assaults. The human brain acts as a kind of fuse - if scrapcode infects a system, the human brains explode, shutting the whole thing down before the daemonically-powered computer virus can take over or destroy anything vital.

Jefffar wrote:
Space Wolves routinely give their tanks offerings of blood and flesh . . . just saying.

Nonsense! While we may run OVER happles xenos, space nuns and shoot down the odd ship filled with said space nuns we dont pour blood into the fuel tanks of out tanks. What sort of wyrd touched fool would do that?

Nobody said anything about the fuel tanks, abhuman.

 Dannyrulx wrote:
So I guess the MS is worshiped by SM? I know in space hulk when you unjam a bolter the guy sometimes goes "the machine spirit has answered my prayers" but what the hell is is?

PS. It's also in a special rule...

You know when people shout at their computers or other technological device as if its a living thing - same thing Except in the 40K universe - it might be.

See also Basil Fawtly giving his car a damn good thrashing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dannyrulx wrote:
So I guess the MS is worshiped by SM? I know in space hulk when you unjam a bolter the guy sometimes goes "the machine spirit has answered my prayers" but what the hell is is?

PS. It's also in a special rule...

You know when people shout at their computers or other technological device as if its a living thing - same thing Except in the 40K universe - it might be.

See also Basil Fawtly giving his car a damn good thrashing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

Better not shout at your lasgun, you do not want to piss it off.

Human technology in 40k is hilarious. Imagine a tank's engine breaking down in the middle of combat:
Tank Driver: 'Darn it! The engine broke down! We are like a sitting duck here!'
Tank Commander: 'Quick! Get the candles and incense, we need to please the Machine Spirit!'
*Several chants and candles later*
Tank Driver: 'Praise the Emperor! The engine is running again, the Machine Spirit must be in a good mood today!'

Machine Spirits are the semi-sentient remnants of an incredibly advanced AI from the Dark Age of Technology iirc.
The AdMech believes the Machine Spirits to be fragments of the Machine God.
Some advanced pieces of technology such as Titans can even have their own distinctive personalities.

So, while only the AdMech and their followers actually worship the Machine Spirits, the trick is that only members of the AdMech themselves or those who are specially instructed by the AdMech have the knowledge and authority to work with technology.
Tinkering with technology while you are not authorised by the AdMech is heresy. Space Marines might be an exception to this since they do not fall under the authority of the AdMech. However, their Techmarines still need to trained by the AdMech.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nobody said anything about the fuel tanks, abhuman.

Its quite logical is it not? Because I have not seen a tank that craves flesh, let alone blood.

 Trondheim wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nobody said anything about the fuel tanks, abhuman.

Its quite logical is it not? Because I have not seen a tank that craves flesh, let alone blood.

Possessed by a Demon it may..

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dannyrulx wrote:
So I guess the MS is worshiped by SM? I know in space hulk when you unjam a bolter the guy sometimes goes "the machine spirit has answered my prayers" but what the hell is is?

PS. It's also in a special rule...

You know when people shout at their computers or other technological device as if its a living thing - same thing Except in the 40K universe - it might be.

See also Basil Fawtly giving his car a damn good thrashing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

*screams at Ipad* Dammit you!! Pick up the connection you utter ...

*ipad shuts down* ummm... Sorry?

 Trondheim wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nobody said anything about the fuel tanks, abhuman.

Its quite logical is it not? Because I have not seen a tank that craves flesh, let alone blood.

Daemon Engines?

 Sasori wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nobody said anything about the fuel tanks, abhuman.

Its quite logical is it not? Because I have not seen a tank that craves flesh, let alone blood.

Daemon Engines?

Silence heretic! Dont tell them our secrets!

The Dark Heresy rulebook seems to imply that the machine spirit, in fact, does not exist, and that all those 'rituals' are just the standard procedure for powering up the tech in question.
Can't seem to find the paragraph right now though...

The Adeptus Mechanicus is very orthodox in their practices and hey share many similarities to different orthodox religions we see today. One of the patterns we often see today is a very ritualistic element to the prayers and services of these religions. "Enter this way, say this thing, take this candle, hold it here and there, place it here, use it to light this, kneel, say this, now take this, do this with it, put it there, say this, take this, insert here, etc etc etc." The ritual is always the same and has a specific list of steps that need to be carried out for it to be proper.

The "prayers" to the machine spirit can easily be the best way to teach basic battlefield maintenance to soldier. Cleansing and anointing the parts just cleans and oils them. The chants and prayers help you remember all the steps needed. The reliance on not pissing off the machine spirit makes sure you don't skip a step so it doesn't fail you. By making people think that they are just praying and not actually fixing things the AdMech priesthood maintains power.

 Dannyrulx wrote:


*screams at Ipad* Dammit you!! Pick up the connection you utter ...

*ipad shuts down* ummm... Sorry?

The number of times I've got technology to work for people by asking it nicely boggles belief.

Then again, I am an animist for real, so it only really boggles other peoples' belief. heh.

I have personally found the "prayers to the machine spirit" more akin to mnemonics. like PEMDAS or other math memory things, the actually words seem to be used to remember how to do something.

Like say...
Reloading a lasgun properly. The addition of "the machine spirit has answered my prayers" is the religious and superstitious aspects technology has gained to the majority of the imperium. They have no idea HOW it works but these mnemonic phrases for say... fixing your car or turning on the coffee machine etc seem to really work so they much be important! best follow them really carefully with religious fervor!

the machine spirit itself varies from actual computer systems, to the belif that every machine, from lasguns to Baneblades have some sort of consciousness that must be appeased in some way to make it work correctly.

Other than actual Machine Spirits like the ones in a Land raider, it's all superstition, layered under wonderous religious convenience.

Lasgun stopped working. You perform rites to appease it's spirit.

It starts working again- you made it's spirit happy!

It stays broke- Uh, oh, you angered the spirit....

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding the mechanicum itself, I've always figured on them preserving a lot of old knowledge but it being so ritualized and shrouded in "faith" that they no longer truely understand it. Maybe I'm strange but I kinda like the idea of mechanus priests chanting things like "EEEEEE equals MC squaaaaared!" but not udnerstanding what it actually means.

In my head that's exactly how it works. People have no idea how technology works because unless your part of the machine cult you are not taught any theory. Even then it's parceled out sparsely to ever increasing ranks of the priesthood. Your lowest cogboy probably knows about 20 different rituals to awaken a car that is not starting. Rather than making educated guess's, they would just run through the 20 rituals until something worked. If ritual 2 worked then the machine spirit is pleased. If it took till ritual 17 than obviously the machine is in a hissey fit.

High ranking tech-priests know much of the established theory but to absolutely everyone else its just magic.