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From how I interpret the rules, if you attach a cryptek from a royal court to warriors it becomes a part of that unit.

So, for all intents and purposes, I count that cryptek like a sergeant attached to a tactical squad. He still counts as a tactical squad by himself.

The problem is that, with ever-living, this allows you to ressurect a unit and repair barge the unit using the cryptek as the warrior squad. I've thought about using this tactic for a while but a few people I play with say that it doesn't legal:

Despairtek with VoD + warrior squad

Monolith

Ghost ark or two... or three

Warriors DS to the enemy, rapid fire and in the enemy shooting phase get wiped out. Despairtek reanimates and then in your turn gets dimensional corridored to the ghost arks which then repair barge the squad back to full strength which can then DS to the enemy again. Rinse and repeat until dead.

The only problem comes when people see the cryptek as some kind of independent unit separate from the warrior squad.

It's not explicitly stated, but... well, it's complicated.

If all his Warriors die, you don't remove the Ressurection Protocol counters unless he also dies, so there's the chance of restoring them.

If all the Warriors die, and he dies, you get an Everliving counter, but no RP counters. The Warrior squad at this point can be considered to have been wiped out. However, they don't grant a Kill Point until the Cryptek is dead-dead! That makes it hard to decide whether the Cryptek is a warrior or not.

If he dies and a Warrior survives, you keep the EL counter and the RP counters.

Ultimately, however, the Cryptek is only resurrecting on a 5+. That's far too low a probability of success to try and rely on this tactic, even if it is accepted as a viable interpretation of the rules, as the core trick of your army. You're basically saying "My entire army only has a one in three chance of working".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not explicitly stated, but... well, it's complicated.

If all his Warriors die, you don't remove the Ressurection Protocol counters unless he also dies, so there's the chance of restoring them.

If all the Warriors die, and he dies, you get an Everliving counter, but no RP counters. The Warrior squad at this point can be considered to have been wiped out. However, they don't grant a Kill Point until the Cryptek is dead-dead! That makes it hard to decide whether the Cryptek is a warrior or not.

If he dies and a Warrior survives, you keep the EL counter and the RP counters.

Ultimately, however, the Cryptek is only resurrecting on a 5+. That's far too low a probability of success to try and rely on this tactic, even if it is accepted as a viable interpretation of the rules, as the core trick of your army. You're basically saying "My entire army only has a one in three chance of working".

You could raise it to a 3 in 4 chance by bringing a harbinger of eternity too with chronometron and an overlord with a res orb.

Expensive, but more reliable.

You could create a sort of tag team of warriors. When one is out, the other is getting repaired.

2x Overlord with res orb - 240 points
2x EternityTeks with chronometron - 80 points
2x Despair teks with VoD - 120 points
2x10man warrior squads - 260 points
Monolith - 200 points
2xGhost Ark - 230 points

= 1130 points (space to add more gear for the overlords or more warriors to the squads)

Average 3 warriors repaired every turn, so while one squad DS to the enemy, the other will gain ~6 warriors before they tag team out again.

Statistics:

3/4 chance that you get to keep VoDing them in.
7/8 chance that if you lose your VoD, that you'll return to the ghost ark and advance normally (like this is a bad thing).

Page 29 of Codex Necron, last paragraph under the heading 'Reanimation Protocols' explains why your scenario can't happen as Crypteks are characters.

 Ghaz wrote:
Page 29 of Codex Necron, last paragraph under the heading 'Reanimation Protocols' explains why your scenario can't happen as Crypteks are characters.

So is a space marine sergeant. They're not independent characters.

The reason why that paragraph makes a distinction is because characters get EL and infantry get RP.

EL doesn't care if there's no squad attached, RP requires atleast one of the squad to be alive.

Repair barge is not RP, it's simply adding warriors to a warrior unit, which the cryptek counts as.

sonicaucie wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Page 29 of Codex Necron, last paragraph under the heading 'Reanimation Protocols' explains why your scenario can't happen as Crypteks are characters.

So is a space marine sergeant. They're not independent characters.

Read the rule. It says "character" not "Independent Character".
The Cryptek is indeed a character.
A Space Marine Sergeant doesn't have the Reanimation Protocal rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Page 29 of Codex Necron, last paragraph under the heading 'Reanimation Protocols' explains why your scenario can't happen as Crypteks are characters.

So is a space marine sergeant. They're not independent characters.

Read the rule. It says "character" not "Independent Character".
The Cryptek is indeed a character.
A Space Marine Sergeant doesn't have the Reanimation Protocal rule.

I edited my post to be more verbose in what I meant.

The RP paragraph deals specifically with RP, not with repair barge.

Repair barge adds D3 warriors to a warrior unit. The paragraph in question talks about characters not taking RP rolls, but EL rolls and if the squad is wiped out leaving an EL token or lone character, then all RP tokens are lost excluding the EL token(s).

The reason why it deals specifically with RP is because it states this:

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols"

So. If 10 Warriors plus 1 Cryptek are destroyed, other than the Cryptek, none of the warriors may use reanimation protocols, per the Necron Codex, pg 29, bottom left.

While the Cryptek has joined the Warrior squad, his unit type is still "Royal Court", because that's the unit he's purchased from. Note, that there is no model type within the Necron Warrior army listing [top of pg 91] named, "Cryptek". That model is only available under the unit, "Royal Court" [pg 90.]

At the time that the repair barge effect goes off, there is no unit of Warriors to repair, there is only a one-man unit of "Royal Court" containing the remaining Cryptek. The Cryptek was joined to the unit of Warriors, and unable to leave it as it isn't an IC. However, that does not make a Cryptek a model from the Warrior unit, so no there is no viable target.

Your summary of the Cryptek being exactly like a Sergeant is inaccurate. Close, but not exactly.


For the same reasoning, a solitary Cryptek previously attached to a unit of Troops may not score, as the Cryptek wasn't purchased as a "Troop" model, just attached to a unit of troops.

 greatbigtree wrote:
For the same reasoning, a solitary Cryptek previously attached to a unit of Troops may not score, as the Cryptek wasn't purchased as a "Troop" model, just attached to a unit of troops.

Incorrect. For the same reason a KP isn't earned for the unit if the Cryptek is still alive - he's part of the unit.

He's joined to the unit, but he isn't a scoring model. He isn't purchased as part of the "troops" slot, and that's what's required to be scoring.

I agree that he needs to be destroyed in order to gain the KP for the unit, as he's joined to it... just not a "Troop" [scoring] and not a model from the "Warrior" unit for Repair purposes.

I know some people disagree with using codex FAQs as precedent, however, since the wording for space wolves wolf guard pack leaders and Necron royal courts are identical (excepting which units can be joined of course), the space wild faq does say straight up the model becomes a member of the unit for all intents and purposes. This means if the unit is killed leaving just the character, it is still scoring (assuming it was scoring to begin with).

Indeed.

The SW are FAQ'd to state that those Characters are treated as scoring, for example.

Necrons are not. While this may be an oversight, the RAW do not currently support attached characters being treated as scoring, which means they aren't.

Nor does it support your position that they're not a part of the unit that they're assigned to. In addition the codex makes it clear that they are no longer a part of the Royal Court.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Indeed.

The SW are FAQ'd to state that those Characters are treated as scoring, for example.

Necrons are not. While this may be an oversight, the RAW do not currently support attached characters being treated as scoring, which means they aren't.

I don't agree with the precedent that because the rules don't explicitly say that a cryptek counts as the unit it's attached to that it means it isn't; given that, for all intents and purposes, we seem to treat it as it is until it gets some minor functionality out of it.

I know this tactic might reek of "that ****ing guy" material, but this tactic isn't remotely overpowered given that it would just manages to recover the points you'd spend to field it reliably by turn 5. Remember that Repair barge only works for warriors. They're MEQ with 4+ armor saves. They're not OP. And a lot of the necron tactics are infact the same way; they only annoy people because it's hard to predict what's going to happen on the field unless they understand the necron codex and will usually take them by surprise.

The way the rules are interpreted for me are the most interesting and seem quite balanced. If it's not allowed, I'm stuck with deploying ghost arks with 20 man warriors squads and slow boating it across the battlefield in a pretty boring manner. In otherwords, I simply don't field them because there's other better choices when any decent player is going to make sure that a necron unit loses atleast 75% of its squad before changing targets.

 greatbigtree wrote:
He's joined to the unit, but he isn't a scoring model. He isn't purchased as part of the "troops" slot, and that's what's required to be scoring.

I agree that he needs to be destroyed in order to gain the KP for the unit, as he's joined to it... just not a "Troop" [scoring] and not a model from the "Warrior" unit for Repair purposes.

So the unit still exists, the model is still part of the unit... But the unit can't score?
Yeah, the rules disagree with you. And you're contradicting yourself.

Well, in light of the well constructed, insightful criticisms of my position, I'll take a shot at putting this together step by step, and leave it at that.

40k has a permissive rule set. In order for something to be able to do something, you must have a rule that says you can do it. 40k RB, pg 123, bottom left to top right, says that, "An army's scoring units are normally the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization Chart..." and it goes on to list exceptions. In order for a unit to be allowed to score when it does not come from the "Troops" section, a rule must specify that it does, per the requirements of a permissive rule set.

Since a Cryptek isn't purchased in the "troops slot" it does not qualify to score, unless a more specific rule overrides this.


The rules for detaching a court member from the "Royal Court" unit [not purchased as a "Troop"] can be found in the Necron codex, pg 90. "... each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit from the following list... Only one member of the Royal Court can join each unit in this manner..."

Nothing in this passage changes where the Cryptek is purchased from. Nothing in this passage states that the Cryptek becomes the unit type that he joins, or changes FOC slot, or anything of that nature. As nothing is specified as changing, he remains an "HQ" model, not a Troop. He is permanently affixed to the Troop unit, but his status as an HQ model does not change.

In order for a solitary Cryptek to count as scoring, or be eligible to be the target of the Repair Barge effect, we would need to look at the Cryptek and say, "This is a "Warrior Squad" purchased from the Troops section," which we can't, as no specific rules say that we do. He was attached to a unit of Warriors, and couldn't leave it, but not that group of models is gone.

Yes, that means that a unit went from "scoring" to "non-scoring" with lost models. This fits within the rules of the game, because the models that made the unit scoring have been removed. You're left with an HQ model that was attached to a Troops unit [Warriors] but isn't any more. He can't score, and he isn't able to be targeted by Repair Barge because he isn't a unit of Warriors.

I believe the confusion arises from an oversimplification, in that Crypteks are believed to be exactly like a SM Sergeant, which they aren't. A SM Sergeant is purchased as part of the Troop unit, while a Cryptek is not. In most cases, there is no meaningful difference, but there is in these cases.


In order to contradict this argument, I believe a person would need to cite a rule that changes a Cryptek to a Troop model, or that changes the Cryptek's unit type to the unit he has joined, such as "Warrior". I do not believe this exists, which is why I feel my position is correct.

The Space wolve wolflords FAQ sets a pretty obvious precedent.

They do the exact same thing so its reasonable to apply the wolf faq to the necrons.

From page 90 of Codex Necrons:

Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit from the following list... Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court.

This more than amply supports the precedent set by the Space Wolves FAQ and in any case it makes it clear that they are in no way any longer a part of the Royal Court.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, in light of the well constructed, insightful criticisms of my position, I'll take a shot at putting this together step by step, and leave it at that.

40k has a permissive rule set. In order for something to be able to do something, you must have a rule that says you can do it. 40k RB, pg 123, bottom left to top right, says that, "An army's scoring units are normally the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization Chart..." and it goes on to list exceptions. In order for a unit to be allowed to score when it does not come from the "Troops" section, a rule must specify that it does, per the requirements of a permissive rule set.

Since a Cryptek isn't purchased in the "troops slot" it does not qualify to score, unless a more specific rule overrides this.

Is the Warrior unit purchased from the Troop slot?
Does the Warrior unit cease to exist when there are no warriors left?

If you answered anything but "Yes. No." Please explain your answers. With rule citations preferably.

Yes, Yes.

The unit of Warriors ceases to exist when the last warrior dies. There is still a member of the combined unit left, just as an Overlord would be left over after a unit of Warriors has been destroyed. A unit remains, but not a unit of Warriors. A unit of "Cryptek" remains. Please show the flaw in that logic.

In both cases, a non-troop member is the surviving member of a unit, and that unit is no longer scoring, because no "troops" members are left.

An overlord doesn't become a "Warrior" when he joins them. You get a combined unit. Same deal with a Cryptek. You get a unit comprised of elements from two different units. When the scoring element is destroyed, the surviving character doesn't magically become scoring just because he got lucky and the unit he was with died.


Please cite a rule allowing a Cryptek to score, when his scoring unit has been destroyed. I've already explained the rules that prevent a solitary Cryptek from scoring.

It would seem that you're trying to claim that a Cryptek, by himself, is a unit of Warriors. Why not claim he's also a unit of an Ultramarine Tactical squad, so you can take advantage of their Chapter Tactics? Or claim that he's a Librarian unit, so he now gets psychic powers... or that he's a unit of Scarabs so he now has Entropic Strike? The unit no longer contains any scoring models, so it is not scoring. It no longer contains any Warrior models, so it is not a unit of Warriors. It doesn't contain any MC's, so it is not a unit of Monstrous Creatures. It does not contain any vehicles, so it is not a vehicle unit. It is the remnant of a combined squad containing a Cryptek and Warriors... but the warriors are gone so it is now just a unit of "Cryptek".


While it is well and good that the Space Wolf FAQ deals with a similar situation, trying to apply a different codex's ruling to this situation is an RAI argument at best. I've already pointed out the flaw in believing that a Cryptek is the same thing as a SM Sergeant. Wolves aren't Robots.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The unit of Warriors ceases to exist when the last warrior dies. There is still a member of the combined unit left, just as an Overlord would be left over after a unit of Warriors has been destroyed. A unit remains, but not a unit of Warriors. A unit of "Cryptek" remains. Please show the flaw in that logic.

From page 36 of Codex Necrons:

Hunters from Hyperspace... Any Deathmark unit that shoots at, or strikes blows against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a Wound on a roll of a 2+.

And from the Codex Necrons FAQ:

Q: Do models from a Royal Court that are attached to a Deathmark Squad benefit from the Hunters from Hyperspace special rule? (p90)
A: Yes.

By your logic, a model from the Royal Court would not be a part of the 'Deathmark unit' and therefore would not benefit from the Hunters from Hyperspace rule when the FAQ clearly indicates otherwise. The reason that the Warriors can't come back when only the Cryptek is left is because the rules for Reanimations Protocols say that a character alone is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation Protocols roll, not because they're somehow separate but combined units.

A Cryptek that is deployed as part of a squad is for all intents and purposes considered to be part of said squad. Non-independant characters cannot leave their squad.

Why would the Cryptek stop being part of the unit he was deployed with simply because the other models didn't reanimate? Where do you see a rule that premits you to change what squad he's part of mid game?

If he's the last model of his squad then his squad still exists, and yes- even alone he'd still be a member of a scoring unit and therefore scoring.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Yes, Yes.

The unit of Warriors ceases to exist when the last warrior dies. There is still a member of the combined unit left, just as an Overlord would be left over after a unit of Warriors has been destroyed. A unit remains, but not a unit of Warriors. A unit of "Cryptek" remains. Please show the flaw in that logic.

Please find me the unit marked "cryptek" in the Nec ron codex. I can see a unit marked "Royal Court", which can contain Crypteks, but we know explicitly that the cryptek is no longer a member of the royal court.

The codex says crypteks and lords split off from their units and are ASSIGNED to lead a unit.

Therefore they cease to be 'Royal court' and are the 'Unit joined'

I think it's pretty cut and dry since the Cryptek can NEVER leave the unit of warriors he is still considered a unit of warriors
he can't score an objective because the only models in range of the objective are not a troops choice however he is eligible
for repair barge because the barge is in fact targeting a unit of warriors.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Yes, Yes.

The unit of Warriors ceases to exist when the last warrior dies. There is still a member of the combined unit left, just as an Overlord would be left over after a unit of Warriors has been destroyed. A unit remains, but not a unit of Warriors. A unit of "Cryptek" remains. Please show the flaw in that logic.

The difference here is that the Overlord is allowed to leave the Warrior unit.
The Cryptek is not.
You've also asserted that the Warrior kill point is not given up until the Cryptek is dead. This contradicts your statement that the unit of Warriors ceases to exist.

According to the actual rules (and this isn't an interpretation) the Cryptek is part of the Warrior unit at deployment. Agreed?

An overlord doesn't become a "Warrior" when he joins them. You get a combined unit. Same deal with a Cryptek. You get a unit comprised of elements from two different units. When the scoring element is destroyed, the surviving character doesn't magically become scoring just because he got lucky and the unit he was with died.

Overlord != Cryptek. Stop comparing them.
Can you cite rules support for a combined unit?

Please cite a rule allowing a Cryptek to score, when his scoring unit has been destroyed. I've already explained the rules that prevent a solitary Cryptek from scoring.

No, you haven't. Yes, you've cited rules but the ones you've cited support your argument about as much as citing the Assault phase rules.

It would seem that you're trying to claim that a Cryptek, by himself, is a unit of Warriors. Why not claim he's also a unit of an Ultramarine Tactical squad, so you can take advantage of their Chapter Tactics? Or claim that he's a Librarian unit, so he now gets psychic powers... or that he's a unit of Scarabs so he now has Entropic Strike? The unit no longer contains any scoring models, so it is not scoring. It no longer contains any Warrior models, so it is not a unit of Warriors. It doesn't contain any MC's, so it is not a unit of Monstrous Creatures. It does not contain any vehicles, so it is not a vehicle unit. It is the remnant of a combined squad containing a Cryptek and Warriors... but the warriors are gone so it is now just a unit of "Cryptek".

He was never part of any of those other units, so of course I wouldn't claim that. That's the very definition of a straw man.

While it is well and good that the Space Wolf FAQ deals with a similar situation, trying to apply a different codex's ruling to this situation is an RAI argument at best. I've already pointed out the flaw in believing that a Cryptek is the same thing as a SM Sergeant. Wolves aren't Robots.

I'm not trying to use the Space Wolf FAQ for this situation.