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 whembly wrote:

False. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't treat these datasets from various countries as gospel.

You're right, the US is a bit dodgy.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

False. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't treat these datasets from various countries as gospel.

You're right, the US is a bit dodgy.

Statistic man... they're just numbers. How those numbers get there is an adventure.

 whembly wrote:

Back to OP: I'm challenging that statement that NK's diet is better that India.

http://www.unicef.org/media/files/nutrition_report_2013.pdf

There are quite a few countries with a worse diet that NK going by that report, including india. The data tables are at the bottom (page 122).

 Palindrome wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Back to OP: I'm challenging that statement that NK's diet is better that India.

http://www.unicef.org/media/files/nutrition_report_2013.pdf

There are quite a few countries with a worse diet that NK going by that report, including india. The data tables are at the bottom (page 122).

I've seen that before...

Again, dash a healthy splash of salt, especially when dealing with NK. They don't just let anybody, much less a UN representative, to show up and start taking in data.

But, then again, asian food are generally "healthier" so I'm not totally discounting that.

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


You are assuming the Cuban data is false.

No. Re-read what I said... then, come back.

If it is, you can't use dodgy data to support your argument any more than I can. Your proposition about comparing Cuban and US healthcare is incorrect at the outset.

False. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't treat these datasets from various countries as gospel.

FWIW the USA has somewhat worse public health than a lot of genuinely comparable countries like the UK or Japan.

There's a huge distinction between the level of healthcare one can receive vs how healthy a certain population is...

Back to OP: I'm challenging that statement that NK's diet is better that India.

You picked Cuba to contrast with the USA. It was implicit in that choice that you either place some kind of credence in the published stats or in some idea you've made up. When you say the published stats are useless readers can draw their own conclusions as to your intentions.

There's a huge distinction between the level of healthcare one can receive vs how healthy a certain population is...

It's a distinction without any meaning for the general populace.

The Dear Leader of NK gets healthcare just as good as the President of the USA. The average citizen in the USA has in theory the opportunity to get healthcare as good as anyone in western Europe as long as he can get insurance from his job, etc.

The total population health stats from the USA are worse than from comparable countries. The health stats from NK are not officially available but from all we know they are pretty dreadful.

I agree with you that the NK diet is worse than the Indian diet.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


You are assuming the Cuban data is false.

No. Re-read what I said... then, come back.

If it is, you can't use dodgy data to support your argument any more than I can. Your proposition about comparing Cuban and US healthcare is incorrect at the outset.

False. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't treat these datasets from various countries as gospel.

FWIW the USA has somewhat worse public health than a lot of genuinely comparable countries like the UK or Japan.

There's a huge distinction between the level of healthcare one can receive vs how healthy a certain population is...

Back to OP: I'm challenging that statement that NK's diet is better that India.

You picked Cuba to contrast with the USA.

Yes I did... I said:
Uh... and who's giving out that sort of information? That's like saying that Cuban's Healthcare is better than the US...

It was implicit in that choice that you either place some kind of credence in the published stats or in some idea you've made up. When you say the published stats are useless readers can draw their own conclusions as to your intentions.

*sigh*

So, you'll believe what ever that comes out of NK or Cuba?

There's a huge distinction between the level of healthcare one can receive vs how healthy a certain population is...

It's a distinction without any meaning for the general populace.

Huh?

The Dear Leader of NK gets healthcare just as good as the President of the USA. The average citizen in the USA has in theory the opportunity to get healthcare as good as anyone in western Europe as long as he can get insurance from his job, etc.

That's not what I'm arguing...

I'm questioning any datasets from NK (or Cuba).

The total population health stats from the USA are worse than from comparable countries.

I'm not arguing otherwise.... American is gluttonous compared to most other countries.

The health stats from NK are not officially available but from all we know they are pretty dreadful.

I agree with you that the NK diet is worse than the Indian diet.

Glad we agree.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that just because NK managed to launch a satellite into orbit does not necessarily mean that they have the capability to reliably launch and guide a missile, complete with payload, to it's target.

Again, missing my point. All I'm saying is that it's silly to completely dismiss North Korean technology as useless and defective.

We finally agree on something, and then you go out of your way to disagree with me I never said that NK technology was "useless and defective". What I said was that there is a difference in technology, planning, logistics, etc. in launching a satellite into orbit and launching an ICBM and having it hit it's designated target coordinates. Evidence of achieving one does not prove the capability to perform the other.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that just because NK managed to launch a satellite into orbit does not necessarily mean that they have the capability to reliably launch and guide a missile, complete with payload, to it's target.

Again, missing my point. All I'm saying is that it's silly to completely dismiss North Korean technology as useless and defective.

We finally agree on something, and then you go out of your way to disagree with me I never said that NK technology was "useless and defective". What I said was that there is a difference in technology, planning, logistics, etc. in launching a satellite into orbit and launching an ICBM and having it hit it's designated target coordinates. Evidence of achieving one does not prove the capability to perform the other.

In 1998 they launched a missile directly over my head in Japan. They purposefully fired a medium ranged missile directly over a US base there, to show they could. Sure, their ICBM capabilities may suck, but they have the ability to deliver payload anywhere in Japan, to include all of our military installations.

Sounds like we should leave Japan then...

The fact that the US is capable of chucking a missile anywhere in the world means that it is completely physically feasible, and the North Koreans can and will replicate that achievement should they devote enough time and resources to it. It might take them the next twenty, or even fifty years,but they will manage it.

Western countries always seem to suffer from this mildly arrogant delusion that only they are capable of research and development. We saw it in 1905, we saw it in 1941, and we'll probably see it again in the future.

 Ketara wrote:
The fact that the US is capable of chucking a missile anywhere in the world means that it is completely physically feasible, and the North Koreans can and will replicate that achievement should they devote enough time and resources to it. It might take them the next twenty, or even fifty years,but they will manage it.

Western countries always seem to suffer from this mildly arrogant delusion that only they are capable of research and development. We saw it in 1905, we saw it in 1941, and we'll probably see it again in the future.

We are hardly delusional on that. It's why we spend so much money on R&D, to stay ahead of the race. All the people screaming that we don't need such advanced stuff, are the ones who want to see everyone else gain parity/the lead.

 djones520 wrote:
In 1998 they launched a missile directly over my head in Japan. They purposefully fired a medium ranged missile directly over a US base there, to show they could. Sure, their ICBM capabilities may suck, but they have the ability to deliver payload anywhere in Japan, to include all of our military installations.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. I assume that we've invested more heavily in missile interception capabilities for our Japanese bases since.

Was that the same launch where they also threatened to treat it as an act of war if anyone shot their missile down? Or was that another incident?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
In 1998 they launched a missile directly over my head in Japan. They purposefully fired a medium ranged missile directly over a US base there, to show they could. Sure, their ICBM capabilities may suck, but they have the ability to deliver payload anywhere in Japan, to include all of our military installations.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. I assume that we've invested more heavily in missile interception capabilities for our Japanese bases since.

Was that the same launch where they also threatened to treat it as an act of war if anyone shot their missile down? Or was that another incident?

Those have been other, more recent, incidents.

That's what I'd thought but I just wanted to double check.

As much as I might like to see NK gone tomorrow it won't happen without China becoming agreeable. NK's loss shrinks China's sphere of influence, and presently it serves as a nice distraction for the time being.

 Ketara wrote:
The fact that the US is capable of chucking a missile anywhere in the world means that it is completely physically feasible, and the North Koreans can and will replicate that achievement should they devote enough time and resources to it. It might take them the next twenty, or even fifty years,but they will manage it.

Western countries always seem to suffer from this mildly arrogant delusion that only they are capable of research and development. We saw it in 1905, we saw it in 1941, and we'll probably see it again in the future.

I think its the 9,000 nuclear warheads help provide comfort to us. Plus our navy ships are starting to sport lasers and rail guns. As soon as we prove out our new SHARKSWITHFRIGGINGLAZERBEAMS Program we'll be good to go.

 djones520 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The fact that the US is capable of chucking a missile anywhere in the world means that it is completely physically feasible, and the North Koreans can and will replicate that achievement should they devote enough time and resources to it. It might take them the next twenty, or even fifty years,but they will manage it.

Western countries always seem to suffer from this mildly arrogant delusion that only they are capable of research and development. We saw it in 1905, we saw it in 1941, and we'll probably see it again in the future.

We are hardly delusional on that. It's why we spend so much money on R&D, to stay ahead of the race. All the people screaming that we don't need such advanced stuff, are the ones who want to see everyone else gain parity/the lead.

You say that, but when I see comments like this, I do wonder...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given what we know about NK technology, we can confidently say they won't be launching nukes any farther than South Korea. And maybe Japan if they get really lucky.

 Ketara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The fact that the US is capable of chucking a missile anywhere in the world means that it is completely physically feasible, and the North Koreans can and will replicate that achievement should they devote enough time and resources to it. It might take them the next twenty, or even fifty years,but they will manage it.

Western countries always seem to suffer from this mildly arrogant delusion that only they are capable of research and development. We saw it in 1905, we saw it in 1941, and we'll probably see it again in the future.

We are hardly delusional on that. It's why we spend so much money on R&D, to stay ahead of the race. All the people screaming that we don't need such advanced stuff, are the ones who want to see everyone else gain parity/the lead.

You say that, but when I see comments like this, I do wonder...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given what we know about NK technology, we can confidently say they won't be launching nukes any farther than South Korea. And maybe Japan if they get really lucky.

Well Templar isn't the guy who determines how money is spent in R&D.

 Ketara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
The fact that the US is capable of chucking a missile anywhere in the world means that it is completely physically feasible, and the North Koreans can and will replicate that achievement should they devote enough time and resources to it. It might take them the next twenty, or even fifty years,but they will manage it.

Western countries always seem to suffer from this mildly arrogant delusion that only they are capable of research and development. We saw it in 1905, we saw it in 1941, and we'll probably see it again in the future.

We are hardly delusional on that. It's why we spend so much money on R&D, to stay ahead of the race. All the people screaming that we don't need such advanced stuff, are the ones who want to see everyone else gain parity/the lead.

You say that, but when I see comments like this, I do wonder...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given what we know about NK technology, we can confidently say they won't be launching nukes any farther than South Korea. And maybe Japan if they get really lucky.

If we were really afraid, then it would be in our enlightened best interest to nuke them now before they develop the technology. Is that what you're advocating?

There IS a middle ground between contempt and fear.

I think its called 'wiener dogs'.

On the subject of R&D; Did those kinetic bombardment weapons ever progress any further? I remember seeing them talked about a few years ago (I think the concept goes back even further) but it seemed to be starting off again.

 Frazzled wrote:
As soon as we prove out our new SHARKSWITHFRIGGINGLAZERBEAMS Program we'll be good to go.

...sea bass.

Pah! Wiener dogs have contempt for fear!

Rodney the wiener dog faced off against a pit mix and some other dog Sunday. Fortunately he had heavy back up in the form of a half mountain dog mix and Frazzled (not sure who is furrier, me or the mountain dog).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:
On the subject of R&D; Did those kinetic bombardment weapons ever progress any further? I remember seeing them talked about a few years ago (I think the concept goes back even further) but it seemed to be starting off again.

 Frazzled wrote:
As soon as we prove out our new SHARKSWITHFRIGGINGLAZERBEAMS Program we'll be good to go.

...sea bass.

Are you talking satellite dropped kinetic weapons?

I had to look up what you were talking about MoD. I'm guessing it's still in research stage.

 Frazzled wrote:


Are you talking satellite dropped kinetic weapons?

 djones520 wrote:
I had to look up what you were talking about MoD. I'm guessing it's still in research stage.

Yeah I think I saw it on that Future Weapons show on the discovery channel or something like that. I could have sworn their was test footage of them using inert metal poles to destroy a bunker. I might be getting confused though and it was probably all CGI, but it was implied that it was coming back.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Are you talking satellite dropped kinetic weapons?

 djones520 wrote:
I had to look up what you were talking about MoD. I'm guessing it's still in research stage.

Yeah I think I saw it on that Future Weapons show on the discovery channel or something like that. I could have sworn their was test footage of them using inert metal poles to destroy a bunker. I might be getting confused though and it was probably all CGI, but it was implied that it was coming back.

Last I heard, they were looking at it in 2003. I haven't seen anything else since then.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Are you talking satellite dropped kinetic weapons?

 djones520 wrote:
I had to look up what you were talking about MoD. I'm guessing it's still in research stage.

Yeah I think I saw it on that Future Weapons show on the discovery channel or something like that. I could have sworn their was test footage of them using inert metal poles to destroy a bunker. I might be getting confused though and it was probably all CGI, but it was implied that it was coming back.

I think you're talking about the "Rod of God" system.

Very interesting post NeedleOfInquiry, thanks for taking the time to write it.

Interesting to hear about the assassination attempts, hopefully eventually chance will fall into the right side and another will be successful.

 Ketara wrote:

You say that, but when I see comments like this, I do wonder...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given what we know about NK technology, we can confidently say they won't be launching nukes any farther than South Korea. And maybe Japan if they get really lucky.

By the time NK has a reliable ICBM that can threaten beyond their tiny corner of the world, we'll have the technology to blow it up on the launch pad(if we don't already)

North Korea is so far behind the US technologically they are not a major threat in and of themselves.

The dangerous part is that they are a cornered animal who has nukes, albeit primitive ones. They are more likely to smuggle a device somewhere in a shipping container than send one via missile. So they're more along the lines of a big terror threat. Plus they're threatening South Korea constantly.

At worst, South Korea gets bombarded with Artillery and a couple Nukes then North Korea gets turned into a real life Fallout3 map. Which would really suck but its not going to cause WW3.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't hope you mean war? The US was unable to win a war against North Korea in the 50's, and as long as China supports North Korea, there is nothing that can be done by the West.
Hostile actions by the West would likely draw China into the conflict and China is likely to draw it's ally Russia into the conflict. Hello World War III.

Are you posting from 1962? The state of world politics has changed a lot. Russia and China are not close, and are rivals in most things. Chinese policy towards North Korea is very similar to the West - 'we'd rather it didn't make a great big mess right now'. The days of the Communist nations all covering for each other is decades out of date.

I would also like to note that is report is not very reliable. It is heavily biased and only shows one side of the issue. It also relies on rumours and biased witnesses rather than solid evidence and indpendent research.
While it is without doubt that Korea is doing very bad things that would make Stalin blush; it should still be noted that propaganda is everywhere, especially in this report.

"Well yes they do awful things but we shouldn't just believe the report saying they do awful things" isn't really anything.

Jebus...all the tunnels they dug under the DMZ...they can wait till the harvest of rice is done and come pouring out like Drows and make off with all the rice and women....

Or they'll come up under a rice field and drown like rats