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 yakface wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

I see where you're coming from on the background not matching what you're seeing but it would limit what I'm loving right now which is designing an army from the ground up and matching up the allies to make it a single cohesive force. A few examples would be Mechanicus, Blood Axe Orks, Lost & the Damned, Tau Expeditionary Forces, New Alien Races, Exodite Eldar. All of those can be built to accommodate the background visually with almost any mix of allies.
The list on paper won't look like anything from the "fluff" but the actual tabletop will.

You're one of the few people who actually goes out of their way to create armies that have a coherent tabletop theme regardless of what the rules you're using 'under the hood'. If everyone did that, maybe I wouldn't mind so much.

When I was looking into 40k a few years ago I couldn't decide between Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks or Necrons. Then I saw the Allies matrix and realized I didn't HAVE TO pick only one ; that I could collect what I wanted and work out armies with better flexibility.

When I play, the story takes precedence, so I don't usually join my IC to Allied units, even if they're Battle Brothers. If I don't have a good reason for putting on the table, I don't play it.

Coldsteel wrote:
Kevin, I'm still in favor of ending Battle Brothers all together. I think it's enough of an advantage to add units from a second codex to cover one's weaknesses without allowing those chosen units to affect the USRs of the main force.

Bright Lights,
Coldsteel

This is wisdom.

 RiTides wrote:
You can't tarpit the death star if the Baron is allowed to join it

Nemesor Zandrekh can remove Hit and Run.

Not everyone plays Necrons though so I don't think that'll effectively resolve the issue with JSC. It doesn't help the other armies.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I find it laughable that the complaint to not allow BB is that unoptimized combos can't be used. Then why the hell do you use them in the first place?

To you chaos guys complaining about losing your unoptimized combo. If it is so unoptimized, then it wouldn't matter if you could do it or not right? I mean it really has little bearing on whether you win or lose since it is so unoptimized.

Sorry, but for the greater good, you lose out. Suck it up and move on.

By that logic, why not just ban Tau and Eldar then? They are the main reasons this is a concern to begin with, and for the greater good of the game it'd fix most of the major issues outright at this point, because wave serpent spam isn't going to go away just because they lost some BB with tau, nor buffmanders with riptides.

That is not logic. That is you stating an unreasonable position. How can you equate getting rid of BB with banning whole book. That's asinine.

Without BB the meta changes. You could not have lots of the power combos that exist. This would allow other armies, ones that hurt Serpent Spam, more reliable in a tourney setting.

Relapse wrote:

Coldsteel wrote:
Kevin, I'm still in favor of ending Battle Brothers all together. I think it's enough of an advantage to add units from a second codex to cover one's weaknesses without allowing those chosen units to affect the USRs of the main force.

Bright Lights,
Coldsteel

This is wisdom.

No, this is a hit to every army except Eldar and the books that can't have BB anyway. CSM and Daemons were designed to run together as battle brothers. Is the warp storm table going to hit my CSM allies now? Nor is it so terrible that a Dark Angel librarian might be able to cast Prescience on that Thunderfire Cannon. The only abusive things going on involve IC's joining units from other armies and piling in half a dozen special rules into one impossible to deal with unit.

This is the same thing as all the GT's that have banned all dataslates because people think one of them is overpowered. Let's be more measured about this.

DarthDiggler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I find it laughable that the complaint to not allow BB is that unoptimized combos can't be used. Then why the hell do you use them in the first place?

To you chaos guys complaining about losing your unoptimized combo. If it is so unoptimized, then it wouldn't matter if you could do it or not right? I mean it really has little bearing on whether you win or lose since it is so unoptimized.

Sorry, but for the greater good, you lose out. Suck it up and move on.

By that logic, why not just ban Tau and Eldar then? They are the main reasons this is a concern to begin with, and for the greater good of the game it'd fix most of the major issues outright at this point, because wave serpent spam isn't going to go away just because they lost some BB with tau, nor buffmanders with riptides.

That is not logic. That is you stating an unreasonable position. How can you equate getting rid of BB with banning whole book. That's asinine.

Without BB the meta changes. You could not have lots of the power combos that exist. This would allow other armies, ones that hurt Serpent Spam, more reliable in a tourney setting.

What exactly are the power combo's without Tau and Eldar again?

We had someone mention Seer Council + Baron, and then Farseer + anything.

 RiTides wrote:
I still think disallowing the BB character joining an allied unit is better than disallowing BB entirely. But, either is better than nothing. Dozer Blades, Seer Council IS a lot weaker without the Baron's hit-and-run, right?

Meh... in that case, they'll just use Irilyth Phoenix Lord.

Yes, that Forgeworld character would also do the trick, seemingly... but at least they'd have to pay a heck of a lot more points to get the ability to hit and run.

 RiTides wrote:
Yes, that Forgeworld character would also do the trick, seemingly... but at least they'd have to pay a heck of a lot more points to get the ability to hit and run.

That's true and a fair point.

You can already add the swooping hawk Pheonix lord for hit and run I believe, but you need to give up a Farseer in both cases. Furthermore, the baron gets re-roll to hit and run I believe, making it almost an auto pass, gives you a +1 to the roll to pick who goes firs, a 2++ save etc. It is a big downgrade to not have the battle brothers, as for the arguments that it hurts all non eldar I disagree...daemons are not effected much,a s they already have minimal bb interaction, nids would get a buff.

Meh... Irylith is sitll awesome... I'm trying to convince my bro to try it out.

If nothing else, for this rule:
SHADOW OF DEATH - - opponents roll 3 dice for leadership/moral tests, taking the two highest.

Who needs Terrify!

This is a pretty funny situation.
Obviously the real problem is with specific codexes. Specific units within them, or just particular combinations. The BEST solution then is to take a scalpel to those units. But no-one would accept that solution as it appears unfair... so we need to find the next-best solution that affects everyone - even when this hurts some more than others and hurts some for no reason at all.

 RiTides wrote:
Yes, that Forgeworld character would also do the trick, seemingly... but at least they'd have to pay a heck of a lot more points to get the ability to hit and run.

Assuming that FW character is an HQ, it would take the place of a Farseer, and wreck the deathstar since only three shots at Fortune is not good enough.

Besides Eldar and Tau, Space Marines can do Kor'sarro, a White Scars Chapter Master, a Rune Priest and a Wolf Lord with the EW saga, all joined to a command squad. It has hit and run, three 2+ armor saves, two Eternal warriors, grav weapons, pseudo skilled rider, etc... All on bikes.

slaede wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Yes, that Forgeworld character would also do the trick, seemingly... but at least they'd have to pay a heck of a lot more points to get the ability to hit and run.

Assuming that FW character is an HQ, it would take the place of a Farseer, and wreck the deathstar since only three shots at Fortune is not good enough.

Interestingly enough, my brother brought a council + beast squad with two farseers/Baron to LVO. Out of 5 games, I believe he only got fortune once.

*shrugs*

Besides Eldar and Tau, Space Marines can do Kor'sarro, a White Scars Chapter Master, a Rune Priest and a Wolf Lord with the EW saga, all joined to a command squad. It has hit and run, three 2+ armor saves, two Eternal warriors, grav weapons, pseudo skilled rider, etc... All on bikes.

What's that? Like 800 points? o.O

2+ armor saves is one thing, and eternal warrior just prevents dying in a hit. 2++ rerollable saves on a massive unit where to a man everyone has fleshbane weapons is not okay.

The nastier thing to do with that bike command squad, btw, is to run Sammael who actually does confer skilled rider which stacks with the White Scars chapter tactic and gives you a 3+ cover just for moving in your movement phase, 2+ for turbo-boosting.

The difference is you can deal with it, with most armies, without having to divert your entire force into something that can take it on. Tau especially just snigger at bikes, because they have a plethora of nasty giant super guns and essentially have ignores cover on every unit provided you haven't whittled down their markerlight support. You shoot it with enough even S3 shots, you can take it out. Not so much with the Eldar jetbike council of doom.

 SRSFACE wrote:
2+ armor saves is one thing, and eternal warrior just prevents dying in a hit. 2++ rerollable saves on a massive unit where to a man everyone has fleshbane weapons is not okay.

The nastier thing to do with that bike command squad, btw, is to run Sammael who actually does confer skilled rider which stacks with the White Scars chapter tactic and gives you a 3+ cover just for moving in your movement phase, 2+ for turbo-boosting.

The difference is you can deal with it, with most armies, without having to divert your entire force into something that can take it on. Tau especially just snigger at bikes, because they have a plethora of nasty giant super guns and essentially have ignores cover on every unit provided you haven't whittled down their markerlight support. You shoot it with enough even S3 shots, you can take it out. Not so much with the Eldar jetbike council of doom.

It's stronger than you think, but we'll see how the TOF invitational plays out. That particular deathstar is being run by four dudes.