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I am looking to build a competitive FMC army for a GT that will be held this fall, as I need to learn to play the army and paint it up I want to slowly get started.

I am having a hard time to find the right build. First off there is the question whether to include Chaos allies. Second off Be'lakor is pretty rad and I would like to field him but if been told that the GT I want to attend doesn't allow dataslates, escalation or stronghold assault, so he's out as well.


The builds I'm contemplating are the following:

Pure Daemons

Fatey

LoC ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward


10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors

DP of Tzeentch Wings, Armor ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward
DP of Tzeentch Wings , Armor ML3 2x Greater Reward Lesser Reward
DP of Tzeentch Wings , Armor ML3 2x Greater Reward Lesser Reward

1850 points

or Allied

Fatey

LoC ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward

10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors

DP of Tzeentch Wings, Armor ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward


CSM Allies

DP of Tzeentch Wings, Armor ML3 Black Mace

11 Cultists

Helldrake

Bastion

1849 points



The first list is much more in your face where as the second list has more defensive capabilities. Could anyone help me out and give me some direction?

Unless you plan to table your opponents, you will likely lose any objective based match with fragile troops.

Fragile wrote:
Unless you plan to table your opponents, you will likely lose any objective based match with fragile troops.

Not at all true.

Horrors are extremely durable with their reroll 1s on saves. Horrors going to ground are harder to kill than plaguebearers against the tons of ignores cover weaponry out there.

I really can't decide besides those two lists. That's really too bad they're not allowing Be'Lakor because he's pretty much a no-brainer, and he's not OP being so many points.

I would probably go with the first list but you should shave off some points on rewards and MLs to get in another troop. For FMC you should have 1 troop for every 500 points, and the portaglyph can count as one of them.
Also your DPs in the first list are going to be more durable because of the greater rewards.

I would go with the first list as it seems more cohesive. CSM can make good allies but there are some downsides. The single heldrake is likely to get focus fired over your daemon princes. The bastion seems like an odd choice, though I could see it as a spider hole for your troops to weather fire within. If you're using a fortification, consider a comms relay to keep your troops off board for as long as possible. If you're hot to do CSM allies, you could consider Be'lakor as he's pretty nasty (and only 10 points more than the kitted out CSM DP). The 10 cultist tax of course is a welcome score/deny. Also remember that the CSM Daemon Princes don't get all of the goodies the CD princes do. Your Tzeentch DP won't get the extra leadership but still be subject to warpstorm results.

I think that in every Flying Circus the Portaglyph it's a must. It can really help with the weak troops issue

I, as well, would suggest the first list with a slight change - swap the LoC for a Nurgle Prince with a Balesword or a Slaanesh Prince with Lash. Former kills of MCs with impunity, latter gives excellent AA coverage. Neither are dependent on psychic powers to do their jobs (though the Slaanesh one loves him some Iron Arm, with three rolls to get it).

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I, as well, would suggest the first list with a slight change - swap the LoC for a Nurgle Prince with a Balesword or a Slaanesh Prince with Lash. Former kills of MCs with impunity, latter gives excellent AA coverage. Neither are dependent on psychic powers to do their jobs (though the Slaanesh one loves him some Iron Arm, with three rolls to get it).

I totally agree with this. I'd favor the Nurgle Prince over the Slaanesh one as I love the Balesword and killing almost any other MC or with one hit at Initiative 8.

 undertow wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I, as well, would suggest the first list with a slight change - swap the LoC for a Nurgle Prince with a Balesword or a Slaanesh Prince with Lash. Former kills of MCs with impunity, latter gives excellent AA coverage. Neither are dependent on psychic powers to do their jobs (though the Slaanesh one loves him some Iron Arm, with three rolls to get it).

I totally agree with this. I'd favor the Nurgle Prince over the Slaanesh one as I love the Balesword and killing almost any other MC or with one hit at Initiative 8.

Yet you are vulnerable to any S10 long range weapon, which will ID you.
Not to mention that there are also some CC "monsters" with Eternal Warrior and S10 weapons.

Lord of Change, with T6, allows you to "fear" only weapons that have explicitly the Instant Death USR

Dump the bastion and add so MoN spawn

Diablix wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I, as well, would suggest the first list with a slight change - swap the LoC for a Nurgle Prince with a Balesword or a Slaanesh Prince with Lash. Former kills of MCs with impunity, latter gives excellent AA coverage. Neither are dependent on psychic powers to do their jobs (though the Slaanesh one loves him some Iron Arm, with three rolls to get it).

I totally agree with this. I'd favor the Nurgle Prince over the Slaanesh one as I love the Balesword and killing almost any other MC or with one hit at Initiative 8.

Yet you are vulnerable to any S10 long range weapon, which will ID you.
Not to mention that there are also some CC "monsters" with Eternal Warrior and S10 weapons.

Lord of Change, with T6, allows you to "fear" only weapons that have explicitly the Instant Death USR

I'm leaning towards running a mono Daemons list, even though both the Nurgle and Slaanesh DP have their upsides I'm weiry of s10 hits, the LoC would be a perfect Grimoire holder as the T6 will save him from alot of hurt. But I am willing to test all three versions.

For now I'm no longer considering allying in Chaos Marines as you can build a good 1750 list but at 1850 you just can't fit a good unit into the list for the cost. The only thing I can think of is dropping the 3rd Pink Horror squad and the Bastion for 2 Nurgle Obliterators.

Ally CSM for Belakor, problem solved. You can't screw it up if you have Belakor

Datasheets arent allowed at the tournament.

I know the whole theme is FMC but a max squad of nurgle spawn and a max squad of flesh hounds would really help out in the killing of all the chaff which you don't want to charge as a daemon prince (wave serpents, fire warrior squads etc). They also might help divert enemy firepower away from all your FMC.

I'd totally agree here. I play an FMC based list at 1500 (pure daemons) and I always include a big flesh hound blob. They're perfect targets for the grimoire and psychic buffs and great multipurpose killers. If I were to beef my list up to 1850, all I'd add would be another tzeentch prince, giving me Fateweaver, 2x tzeentch princes (grimoire, portal), a slaanesh prince for AA/AT duties, 15x flesh hounds and 3x troops (usually a mix of horrors and daemonettes). It's a fantastic list that has answers to pretty much everything and has served me well. The only change I'd make to it might be to swap the slaanesh prince for a nurgle one, but there aren't many wraithknights and their ilk in my area.

Pure Daemons

Fatey

LoC ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward


10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors

DP of Tzeentch Wings, Armor ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward
DP of Tzeentch Wings , Armor ML3 2x Greater Reward Lesser Reward
DP of Tzeentch Wings , Armor ML3 2x Greater Reward Lesser Reward

1850 points

I'm not a huge fan of the LoC, especially under this setup. Ideally, a LoC wants two Greater Rewards, as it needs all the help it can get when it comes to durability buffs. When the stars align, the LoC is a self-contained monstrous beat-stick. However, you have to be ready for games in which it has a 5++ and nothing else.

Even with a Portal, you are light on troops. Horrors get a ton better at 11 and 16. If you are only going to take 10, then you might as well go for the faster Daemonettes, which are able to hide out of LOS and deepstrike in with a huge run after landing.

You are pumping a ton of points into the DPs that aren't worthwhile. The Lesser Rewards are useless. While the concussive Tzeentch staff seems good, you don't want to land with FMCs. I hardly ever come down from the skies with my list. The Greater Gifts can provide some nice buffs, but you have 100 points sitting there which can be used in other places.

If you are dead set on this general list, I'd still advise some minor changes. Cutting those Greater and Lesser gifts gives you 120 points to play with. A Bastion or Skyshield can be really helpful to you, as you aren't always guaranteed LOS blocking terrain. For 75 points, you are able to ensure the ability to go second without getting hammered as hard by Eldar. With the remaining 45, you can buff up one unit of troops to 15. These changes are small, but would really make the list better.

If you want to get into additional major changes, dropping the LoC would be my preferred cut. You could then take an Exalted Gift on a second DP to ensure the Portal, and use those points for more troops, Hounds, Screamers, Heralds, or other general goodness.

or Allied

Fatey

LoC ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward

10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors

DP of Tzeentch Wings, Armor ML3 Exalted Reward Greater Reward


CSM Allies

DP of Tzeentch Wings, Armor ML3 Black Mace

11 Cultists

Helldrake

Bastion

1849 points

Some of the same stuff applies here. I'm not a LoC fan, but you can easily swap him for another ML3 Tzeentch DP (with Exalted Gift for the Portal). I don't mind the Mace DP, but I wouldn't bother with the Masterly Levels. CSM DPs must roll one power from the crappy tables of their book. That really cuts down on the viability of the unit. The points saved could allow you to buff the Horrors to 16 or 17, which gives them more firepower. Otherwise, I like the allied contingent a lot (very similar to what I use, but with Be'lakor). A Drake is always nice.

I think that a good compromise would be something like this:

Fatey
ML 3 Tzeentch DP w Exalted
ML 3 Tzeentch DP w Exalted

20 Horrors
15 Daemonettes

Black Mace DP of Tzeentch
11 Cultists
Drake
Bastion

1850

If you run a Nurgle Daemon prince, make sure you abuse cover. As a CD Daemon of Nurgle, you'll get shroud and defensive grenades. Grenades will give you stealth at < 8". These stack with each other and stack on top of terrain cover or jink cover if you dive. Balesword is loads of giggles.

JGrand makes a lot of good points.

Only thing is that I feel the LoC is the best FMC you can possibly get. Wings and 2ML for 230 points is a complete steal, way cheaper than a DP, and has a way better statline. I don't see a reason to ever take a DP over one. I've had great success with a LoC with the grimoire and 3ML, at only 285 points. I roll twice on divination and then take Flickering Fire. He's almost as good a gunboat as Fatey and almost as good in CC as a Bloodthirster (though CC should always be a last resort).

A balesword prince would be cool but that means giving up your LoC, which is certainly an anchor in the army. Plus it's a one trick pony and unless you're up against a Wraithknight he will be pretty useless. I don't really consider him an all-comers choice.

I would also advise to not become obsessed with fitting as many FMC as you can. Soul Grinders are amazing and I find do as much a DPs but cost much less. Not being able to take Be'Lakor is a bummer.

Here's a sample list:

Fatey
LoC ML3 Exalted

10 Horrors
10 Horrors

Slaanesh Bale Grinder
Slaanesh Bale Grinder
Tzeentch DP ML2 Exalted

CSM Tzeentch DP The Black Mace

10 Cultists

Heldrake

This gives you 5 flying things and 2 extremely tough ground threats. Soul Grinders and the Heldrake IMO can do more than the extra DP they replace.

 JGrand wrote:
You are pumping a ton of points into the DPs that aren't worthwhile. The Lesser Rewards are useless. While the concussive Tzeentch staff seems good, you don't want to land with FMCs. I hardly ever come down from the skies with my list. The Greater Gifts can provide some nice buffs, but you have 100 points sitting there which can be used in other places.

I don't agree. I've found that with Princes, if you're going to use them, you should max them out. Granted you won't always get those amazing survivability rewards like 4+ FNP, or and extra wound and It Will Not Die, but when you do get them your Princes can become almost unkillable. I'd rather use those points for a chance at amazing, then buy some marginal upgrade. With that said though, I never buy Lesser Gifts. I may spend 40 on two greaters, or 50 on an exalted and a greater, but never will I buy a lesser gift.

 herpguy wrote:
JGrand makes a lot of good points.

Only thing is that I feel the LoC is the best FMC you can possibly get. Wings and 2ML for 230 points is a complete steal, way cheaper than a DP, and has a way better statline. I don't see a reason to ever take a DP over one. I've had great success with a LoC with the grimoire and 3ML, at only 285 points. I roll twice on divination and then take Flickering Fire. He's almost as good a gunboat as Fatey and almost as good in CC as a Bloodthirster (though CC should always be a last resort).

A balesword prince would be cool but that means giving up your LoC, which is certainly an anchor in the army. Plus it's a one trick pony and unless you're up against a Wraithknight he will be pretty useless. I don't really consider him an all-comers choice.

I would also advise to not become obsessed with fitting as many FMC as you can. Soul Grinders are amazing and I find do as much a DPs but cost much less. Not being able to take Be'Lakor is a bummer.

Here's a sample list:

Fatey
LoC ML3 Exalted

10 Horrors
10 Horrors

Slaanesh Bale Grinder
Slaanesh Bale Grinder
Tzeentch DP ML2 Exalted

CSM Tzeentch DP The Black Mace

10 Cultists

Heldrake

This gives you 5 flying things and 2 extremely tough ground threats. Soul Grinders and the Heldrake IMO can do more than the extra DP they replace.

When I count up this list it comes over 1850 points, it comes to 1855 and that is without having power armor on any of the regular DP's. Did you miscount or am I missing something. The feel of the list is good though.



Alternatively I could drop the whole FMC thought and run a screamer star build:


Fatey

Herald on Disc ML 3 Grimoire
Herald on Disc ML 3 Portal
Herald on Disc ML 2

11 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors
10 Pink Horrors

9 Screamers

DP of Tzeentch ML3 Wings, Armor Greater Gift
DP of Tzeentch ML3 Wings, Armor Greater Gift

This has enough troops in a portal and 3 Pink Horror squads, 3 durable FMC's and a 12 model screamer star.

Urgh please don't go with the screamerstar. It's an abusive gimmick that isn't half as good as people think (no hit and run, can target only one unit, might not roll forewarning, very vulnerable unless you get first turn...)

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Urgh please don't go with the screamerstar. It's an abusive gimmick that isn't half as good as people think (no hit and run, can target only one unit, might not roll forewarning, very vulnerable unless you get first turn...)

Haha ok then I will keep that in mind. A different build is what I saw someone mention in another topic regarding a competitive Daemon list.


Fatey

Keeper of Secrets ML2 Greater Greater

10 Plaguebearers champ

10 Plaguebearers champ

10 Plaguebearers

DP of Tzeentch Greater Greater Wings Armor ML3

DP of Tzeentch Greater Grimoire Wings Armor ML3

DP of Slaanesh Lash of Slaanesh Portal Wings Armor ML3

This sports 3 troops, 4 flying threads with AA and a fast and deadly ground threat.

I like that list, but I'd be inclined to take at least two lash princes if you're paying the keeper tax (not that the keeper is bad of course). I still like the grimoire on a tzeentch prince though as he has better survivability and better range with flickering fire. Might want to rethink plaguebearers as troops though. They have their advantages to be sure, but I've been finding them far too slow and impotent to be of much use.

I'm probably taking double Lash Princes for sure and changing the troops to 10 plaguebearers and 20 Daemonettes.

That gives you the best of both worlds. As the Daemonettes will wreck havoc with the Keeper of Secrets while still having a stable back field unit in the Plaguebearers.

Sounds like a sound strategy to me! I'm still in favour of swapping the keeper for hounds and taking 1 lash prince and 2 tzeentch princes (as HS), but that's pretty much a variant on this list, with it's own strengths and weaknesses. Good luck with it!

Fatey

Keeper of Secrets ML2 Greater Greater

10 Plaguebearers champ

10 Plaguebearers champ

10 Plaguebearers

DP of Tzeentch Greater Greater Wings Armor ML3

DP of Tzeentch Greater Grimoire Wings Armor ML3

DP of Slaanesh Lash of Slaanesh Portal Wings Armor ML3

This sports 3 troops, 4 flying threads with AA and a fast and deadly ground threat.

This is sort-of the "classic" FMC build. I've seen it in action a ton of times, and I have some issues with it. First and foremost is the Keeper of Secrets. While not overly expensive, the Keeper isn't all that great. It is a very fragile MC--particularly in an ignore cover heavy world. I've used Slaanesh Princes before, and have been a bit disappointed with them. Lash is decent, but prone to randomness and has a very short range. Furthermore, leadership 9 makes more of a difference than you think. Finally, Slaanesh Princes lack the ability to take Flickering Fire and also don't get the highly abusable re-roll 1's of Tzeentch Princes. Hit a Slaanesh Prince with Invisibility and it is pretty durable. Hit a Tzeentch Prince and it is nigh unkillable--unless the opponent can ignore cover, of course.

 JGrand wrote:
Finally, Slaanesh Princes lack the ability to take Flickering Fire and also don't get the highly abusable re-roll 1's of Tzeentch Princes. Hit a Slaanesh Prince with Invisibility and it is pretty durable. Hit a Tzeentch Prince and it is nigh unkillable--unless the opponent can ignore cover, of course.

Agreed. Being able to reroll ones has saved my Princes too many times to count. Compared to that, Flickering Fire is just gravy.

 JGrand wrote:

Fatey

Keeper of Secrets ML2 Greater Greater

10 Plaguebearers champ

10 Plaguebearers champ

10 Plaguebearers

DP of Tzeentch Greater Greater Wings Armor ML3

DP of Tzeentch Greater Grimoire Wings Armor ML3

DP of Slaanesh Lash of Slaanesh Portal Wings Armor ML3

This sports 3 troops, 4 flying threads with AA and a fast and deadly ground threat.

This is sort-of the "classic" FMC build. I've seen it in action a ton of times, and I have some issues with it. First and foremost is the Keeper of Secrets. While not overly expensive, the Keeper isn't all that great. It is a very fragile MC--particularly in an ignore cover heavy world. I've used Slaanesh Princes before, and have been a bit disappointed with them. Lash is decent, but prone to randomness and has a very short range. Furthermore, leadership 9 makes more of a difference than you think. Finally, Slaanesh Princes lack the ability to take Flickering Fire and also don't get the highly abusable re-roll 1's of Tzeentch Princes. Hit a Slaanesh Prince with Invisibility and it is pretty durable. Hit a Tzeentch Prince and it is nigh unkillable--unless the opponent can ignore cover, of course.

Hmm finding a propper list is turning out to be more difficult then I anticipated. There are alot of different ways to approach the army and neither is strictly wrong. This makes it difficult to get my barings. The only propper consensus is to run Fateweaver as the Warlord. What is in your opinion the best 1850 Daemon's list at this moment? Your credentials seem good so I'm interested to hear your view on the matter.

On the earlier topic of the LoC.

He doesn't do anything the rest of the list can't, which is his largest drawback. Sure he does it cheaper, but he's the same as the Tzeentch DPs at the end of the day (granted with +1T). To my knowledge, the only Str10 ranged weapons you're fearing are - Railguns, Demolisher Cannons, Wraithcannons.

Railheads are traditionally left at home for Ionheads or Boradsides, Demolisher Cannons are templates (and if you're ground, you're usually dead anyway or tarpitted for the game). Wraithcannons are a tangible threat but are mounted on an MC - precisely the target a Balesword Prince wants to fight. He has two shots to kill your DP and then he dies. No question.

A Balesword Nurgle Prince romps MCs. Riptides, Wraithknights, Wraithlords, all things Nidzilla, multi-wound ICs lacking EW, even multi-wound tarpits. He will end them.

A Lash Slaanesh Prince with Iron Arm puts the fear into enemy fliers. 2d6 S:User attacks. Worst case scenario, no Iron arm, it's still Flicker Fire with no psychic test. Best case, it's Str9.

Tzeentch DPs, Thirsters, LoCs, Fatey, and Belakor all cannot fulfill these rolls. Belakor, of course, can fight enemy MCs and win - but not with the same speed. All above can vector or FF fliers, but cannot put them down as reliably as the Slaanesh Prince. Their benefits are unique. All a LoC gets you is a cheaper and slightly tougher DP.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
On the earlier topic of the LoC.

He doesn't do anything the rest of the list can't, which is his largest drawback. Sure he does it cheaper, but he's the same as the Tzeentch DPs at the end of the day (granted with +1T). To my knowledge, the only Str10 ranged weapons you're fearing are - Railguns, Demolisher Cannons, Wraithcannons.

Railheads are traditionally left at home for Ionheads or Boradsides, Demolisher Cannons are templates (and if you're ground, you're usually dead anyway or tarpitted for the game). Wraithcannons are a tangible threat but are mounted on an MC - precisely the target a Balesword Prince wants to fight. He has two shots to kill your DP and then he dies. No question.

A Balesword Nurgle Prince romps MCs. Riptides, Wraithknights, Wraithlords, all things Nidzilla, multi-wound ICs lacking EW, even multi-wound tarpits. He will end them.

A Lash Slaanesh Prince with Iron Arm puts the fear into enemy fliers. 2d6 S:User attacks. Worst case scenario, no Iron arm, it's still Flicker Fire with no psychic test. Best case, it's Str9.

Tzeentch DPs, Thirsters, LoCs, Fatey, and Belakor all cannot fulfill these rolls. Belakor, of course, can fight enemy MCs and win - but not with the same speed. All above can vector or FF fliers, but cannot put them down as reliably as the Slaanesh Prince. Their benefits are unique. All a LoC gets you is a cheaper and slightly tougher DP.

Your assessment makes alot of sense. A Nurgle DP is probably more useful than a Slaanesh one. Being able to slay Wraithknights and Riptides is a big deal.

After re-thinking about what components a list should entail I came up with the following list:

The list should have a force multipler (Fateweaver)

- Multiple threats (target saturation)
- Both on the ground and in the air

- Be able to handle MC's

- Be able to handle flyers

- Enough troops

- A way to handle not going first


This led me to the following list:

Fateweaver

DP ML3 Wings Armor and either Nurgle / Balesword or Slaanesh / Lash of Despair

15 Daemonettes

16 Pink Horrors

13 Flesh Hounds

DP of Tzeentch ML3 Wings Armor Grimoire

DP of Tzeentch ML3 Wings Armor Portal

Bastion

This list covers almost every single point. If I were to go with a Nurgle DP I would be better against MC's and when going Slaanesh I would be better against flyers.

Alternatively JGrand's list suggestion for allies is also still in the mix though I am leaning towards keeping it pure Daemons

Fatey
ML 3 Tzeentch DP w Exalted
ML 3 Tzeentch DP w Exalted

20 Horrors
15 Daemonettes

Black Mace DP of Tzeentch
11 Cultists
Drake
Bastion

1850

Hmm finding a propper list is turning out to be more difficult then I anticipated. There are alot of different ways to approach the army and neither is strictly wrong. This makes it difficult to get my barings. The only propper consensus is to run Fateweaver as the Warlord. What is in your opinion the best 1850 Daemon's list at this moment? Your credentials seem good so I'm interested to hear your view on the matter.

It is really hard, as list building is so personal. I'd recommend that you start with the Daemons/CSM list you have and try it out. Playtesting helps you tweak the fine details. This is my current list, after much playtesting:

Fatey
Herald of Tzeentch on Disk, ML3, Exalted Gift (Portal)
DP of Tzeentch, ML 3, Exalted (Grimiore)

17 Horrors
10 Plaguebearers (may swap for Daemonettes)

7 Screamers

Be'lakor
10 Cultists
Heldrake

Bastion

1848

I understand that you cannot always use Be'lakor, which is a bummer because he isn't OP at all. What I do like is that I know that I can support my big three with a Grimiore, built in Shrouded, and guaranteed Invisibility. Ignore cover stuff is annoying, but less and less Tau have markers en masse. Serpents are annoying, but you just have to play the game by flying on and off, vector striking, puppet mastering, and hitting flickering fire on back armor.

I like having the Screamers as a ground presence. They aren't cheap, but they are versatile. I don't use them as a "Screamer-star", but I can choose to fly my FMCs off the board and hit them with the Grimiore if I need (note: this is something fun you can also do to the Drake). I like the Bastion for blocking LOS and as a place to hide from things like SMS. The Horrors are solid shooting out, and I can detach the Herald and drop him in there if need be.

There are a ton of ways to build Daemons, particularly FMC. The only "auto-takes" I see are Fatey, the Grimiore, and the Portal. The rest is really negotiable.