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More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Why can't other Termies be T5? Or get boosted to a 4+ Invuln? Or Rage/Counter Attack? Or boosted with higher init from marks? I imagine that's why.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

You have relentless on terminators, so your bolter is assault in effect.

Chaos termites can get combi-weapons on the cheap. Also, a twin-linked bolter is far better than a storm bolter at 12" range.

The TL bolter thing is designed to force Chaos terminators to get closer to their enemy. This marks chaos terminators out as an assault unit, while tac terminators are more of a ranged unit.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

You have relentless on terminators, so your bolter is assault in effect.

Chaos termites can get combi-weapons on the cheap. Also, a twin-linked bolter is far better than a storm bolter at 12" range.

The TL bolter thing is designed to force Chaos terminators to get closer to their enemy. This marks chaos terminators out as an assault unit, while tac terminators are more of a ranged unit.

I just checked my codex, no relentless... But the other stuff you said DOES make a lot more sense, thanks!

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

You have relentless on terminators, so your bolter is assault in effect.

Chaos termites can get combi-weapons on the cheap. Also, a twin-linked bolter is far better than a storm bolter at 12" range.

The TL bolter thing is designed to force Chaos terminators to get closer to their enemy. This marks chaos terminators out as an assault unit, while tac terminators are more of a ranged unit.

I just checked my codex, no relentless... But the other stuff you said DOES make a lot more sense, thanks!

Don't check the terminator section, check terminator armour's personal entry. I am certain they have the relentless special rule.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

You have relentless on terminators, so your bolter is assault in effect.

Chaos termites can get combi-weapons on the cheap. Also, a twin-linked bolter is far better than a storm bolter at 12" range.

The TL bolter thing is designed to force Chaos terminators to get closer to their enemy. This marks chaos terminators out as an assault unit, while tac terminators are more of a ranged unit.

I just checked my codex, no relentless... But the other stuff you said DOES make a lot more sense, thanks!

Don't check the terminator section, check terminator armour's personal entry. I am certain they have the relentless special rule.

Yep, you are right. So no problem then! I have to remember this next game

As an aside, 5 CSM terminators kills 1.48 power armoured marines at 12" range, while tactical terminators from vanilla marines only kill 1.11

Gotta love math hammer

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

Fluff is a moot point. Chaos Space Marines do have plenty of forges, although not as many as the Imperium, and they have post-heresy Renegades, and they loot weapons from the enemy.

It's a victim of GW focusing the wrong parts of the codex to overcomplexify and the wrong parts to oversimplify.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

And yet we have Red Corsairs and other newly 'renegade' warbands who would indeed have that stuff, despite them trying to make it "Codex: Warbands"

Also there is the Dark Mechanicus, different forge worlds, the looting, the fact that the warp literally can produce things at times, daemonically created weaponry, weapons bargained from daemons. Not to mention entire societies that can create daemonic things like the Q'sal.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

And yet we have Red Corsairs and other newly 'renegade' warbands who would indeed have that stuff, despite them trying to make it "Codex: Warbands"

Also there is the Dark Mechanicus, different forge worlds, the looting, the fact that the warp literally can produce things at times, daemonically created weaponry, weapons bargained from daemons. Not to mention entire societies that can create daemonic things like the Q'sal.

What's the Q'sal?

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

And yet we have Red Corsairs and other newly 'renegade' warbands who would indeed have that stuff, despite them trying to make it "Codex: Warbands"

Also there is the Dark Mechanicus, different forge worlds, the looting, the fact that the warp literally can produce things at times, daemonically created weaponry, weapons bargained from daemons. Not to mention entire societies that can create daemonic things like the Q'sal.

What's the Q'sal?

A Sorcerer-planet Dedicated to Tzeentch, a society based around Psykers, fate, and backstabbing.

Kinda like a more psyker focused Dark Eldar, when it comes down to it.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

Fluff is a moot point. Chaos Space Marines do have plenty of forges, although not as many as the Imperium, and they have post-heresy Renegades, and they loot weapons from the enemy.

It's a victim of GW focusing the wrong parts of the codex to overcomplexify and the wrong parts to oversimplify.

I was mostly basing myself on the Night Lords trilogy. You have a warband for whom the Heresy happened only 100 years ago. The guys in the warband are the same guys who rose up against the emperor. They have limited supplies/techs/forge and have the scavenge for everything.

This is why they still have Twin-Linked bolters instead of storm bolters. Autocannons instead of assault cannons etc...

 Erik_Morkai wrote:


I was mostly basing myself on the Night Lords trilogy. You have a warband for whom the Heresy happened only 100 years ago. The guys in the warband are the same guys who rose up against the emperor. They have limited supplies/techs/forge and have the scavenge for everything.

This is why they still have Twin-Linked bolters instead of storm bolters. Autocannons instead of assault cannons etc...

See, my problem with this is simple. Why don't they still have the rest of the Crusade-era tech then? Why don't they have Cataphractii armour, suspensor webs, and rad grenades? Why don't they have Contemptors, Felblades, and true artillery? Why don't they have any of the old Legion assets that wouldn't decrepify in such a short time? Why do they only have the junk that's worse than latter day Imperial technology? One of the oldest fluff points is that technology has been lost since the Crusade era. If all the traitor equipment dates to that era, why don't they have it?

This is what happens when GW decides that loyalists gets five different books because they fight differently, and won't differentiate an ancient Traitor Legion from a renegade demi-company born of a M39 founding. They don't have it because GW doesn't want to bother aligning fluff with rules for the 'bad guys'. It's easier to be cinematic when the villains are faceless chumps.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

And yet we have Red Corsairs and other newly 'renegade' warbands who would indeed have that stuff, despite them trying to make it "Codex: Warbands"

Also there is the Dark Mechanicus, different forge worlds, the looting, the fact that the warp literally can produce things at times, daemonically created weaponry, weapons bargained from daemons. Not to mention entire societies that can create daemonic things like the Q'sal.

I don't think so. Even the newer renegades which make up the vast majority of Chaos warbanz (because there are no legions anymore) wouldn't have storm bolters. For the same reason they don't have land speeders - they just don't have the resources to maintain them. Storm bolters are extremely rare pieces of equipment - it takes a tech magos his entire life to assemble one! This is why Rhinos are such precious commodities that are very rarely seen on the battlefields of the 41st millenium - each one of them wields a mighty revered storm bolter!

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

What? Chaos has access to daemon forge worlds to mass produce weapons, and Chapters of Space marines fall by the year, bringing with them all of their gear. If anything, storm botlers should be inmenseles common with the main ranks, with only the most powerful and lauded of CSMs having access to relics from the Horus Heresy. The only Legions that should lack access to new weapons are those that do not loot or lack and industry to produce weapons, even their own variants.

 GreyHamster wrote:


See, my problem with this is simple. Why don't they still have the rest of the Crusade-era tech then? Why don't they have Cataphractii armour, suspensor webs, and rad grenades? Why don't they have Contemptors, Felblades, and true artillery? Why don't they have any of the old Legion assets that wouldn't decrepify in such a short time? Why do they only have the junk that's worse than latter day Imperial technology? One of the oldest fluff points is that technology has been lost since the Crusade era. If all the traitor equipment dates to that era, why don't they have it?

This is what happens when GW decides that loyalists gets five different books because they fight differently, and won't differentiate an ancient Traitor Legion from a renegade demi-company born of a M39 founding. They don't have it because GW doesn't want to bother aligning fluff with rules for the 'bad guys'. It's easier to be cinematic when the villains are faceless chumps.

All of my exalts

Take them all.

Because at some point Chaos becomes "All of the Imperial stuff plus more cool stuff" and then there's no point to play loyalists at all.

That's why they don't get to have both storm bolters and power weapons; or thunder hammer and storm shield.

 GreyHamster wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:


I was mostly basing myself on the Night Lords trilogy. You have a warband for whom the Heresy happened only 100 years ago. The guys in the warband are the same guys who rose up against the emperor. They have limited supplies/techs/forge and have the scavenge for everything.

This is why they still have Twin-Linked bolters instead of storm bolters. Autocannons instead of assault cannons etc...

See, my problem with this is simple. Why don't they still have the rest of the Crusade-era tech then? Why don't they have Cataphractii armour, suspensor webs, and rad grenades? Why don't they have Contemptors, Felblades, and true artillery? Why don't they have any of the old Legion assets that wouldn't decrepify in such a short time? Why do they only have the junk that's worse than latter day Imperial technology? One of the oldest fluff points is that technology has been lost since the Crusade era. If all the traitor equipment dates to that era, why don't they have it?

This is what happens when GW decides that loyalists gets five different books because they fight differently, and won't differentiate an ancient Traitor Legion from a renegade demi-company born of a M39 founding. They don't have it because GW doesn't want to bother aligning fluff with rules for the 'bad guys'. It's easier to be cinematic when the villains are faceless chumps.

And the problem could be solved by allowing us to ally with Space Marines, not battle brothers but desperate allies to represent the newly turned Space Marines that are still weary of the more marked Chaos Marines. Add in the rule that Space Marines taken as allies cannot use chapter tactics or special characters chosen from Codex Space Marine to keep it balanced, gives some but not all the toys.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Storm Bolters did not exist during the Heresy. So other than a the odd Storm Bolter looted from the battlefield now and then, Chaos should not have access to this.

You have to understand that most of the Chaos stuff is stuff they had back then. With little access to Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to develop new stuff.

It's more a fluff issue than a power issue.

You do recall that fully half of the Adeptus Mechanicus set Mars on fire and then flew out to the Eye of Terror, because where they were going they wouldn't need Science, right?

The forces of Chaos have Forge Worlds and all kinds of Dark Mechanicus holdings in the Eye. It is to these sorts that warbands trade slaves and tech taken from the Imperium, or other sources, in trade for their services.

Why Chaos Terms don't have stormbolters.... or, really, any of the current tech the Imperium has, save, perhaps, for anything that was shipped to the Loyalists within the last galactic year, makes no kinds of sense.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As an aside, 5 CSM terminators kills 1.48 power armoured marines at 12" range, while tactical terminators from vanilla marines only kill 1.11

Right, and at 24", it's .74 to 1.1.

Combined, therefore, combi-bolters are better than storm bolters. Of course, it's all a bit moot as terminators can deepstrike, so you're practically guaranteed to be either within 18" for your first shot, or are going to be running rather than shooting (or shooting a heavy weapon at something the storm bolters won't hurt).

Given that storm bolters are only better in an unlikely scenario, the question isn't why does CSM have combi-bolters, but why did the imperium downgrade to storm bolters after the heresy?

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Because of fluff. Stormbolters didn't even exist pre-heresy, or if they did they were relatively new and in short supply. ALL termies before Horus had a hissy fit used combi-bolters. I can't remember exactly where I heard this, but I thought it was a well established piece of lore. Assault cannons are also a post-heresy invention; I don't think chaos terminators can take those either?

As for the whole "well chaos has forgeworlds tooooo OMG GW WHY WTF" arguement, chaos dudes get stuff like, oh, you know, daemonic possession? Sentient swords? Daemon engines? I'm talking strictly from a fluff standpoint here of course. And remember, the traitor legions were heavily damaged and routed after an all-out assault on Terra, so much of their tech (artillery, pre-heresy "stuff") was probably abandoned or damaged beyond repair. In their current state, thousands of years later, some of their gear (primarily armor, power armor is difficult to manufacture/maintain) is scavenged from fallen Imperial soldiers. The darkmech is likely focused on the aftermentioned daemon things or making true AI or some crap like that and can't be bothered with something as trivial as a stormbolter.

Right.

Let's not forget one crucial fact - CSM steal vast quantities of materiel from loyalist forces over time. If they really wanted storm bolters, they could acquire storm bolters by one means or another.

This sort of implies that the reason they don't have storm bolters is because they don't WANT storm bolters.

 Ailaros wrote:
Right.

Let's not forget one crucial fact - CSM steal vast quantities of materiel from loyalist forces over time. If they really wanted storm bolters, they could acquire storm bolters by one means or another.

This sort of implies that the reason they don't have storm bolters is because they don't WANT storm bolters.

Pretty much. All you need is a Dark Mechanicum adept to dissasemble a Storm Bolter to build blueprints off it, then mass produce it for everyone he's contracted to on the Chaos Forge World. It isn't like CSM's lack massive industry, the Iron Warriors will have a word with anyone who thinks otherwise. The only conclusion is that fluff-wise, Storm Bolters are also just worse than Combi-Bolters, and the only reason why the IOM uses them is that they're cheaper.

The better question is why isn't every CSM armed with a possessed weapon, or at least why aren't they more common thanks to the resources of the CSM's?

 Ailaros wrote:
Right.

Let's not forget one crucial fact - CSM steal vast quantities of materiel from loyalist forces over time. If they really wanted storm bolters, they could acquire storm bolters by one means or another.

This sort of implies that the reason they don't have storm bolters is because they don't WANT storm bolters.

I was just thinking the same thing actually, perhaps the combi bolter is in fact better for some reason? I can see traitor forces wanting to keep their old gear instead, seeing as pre heresy technology is vastly superior in most cases.

ted234521 wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Because of fluff. Stormbolters didn't even exist pre-heresy, or if they did they were relatively new and in short supply. ALL termies before Horus had a hissy fit used combi-bolters. I can't remember exactly where I heard this, but I thought it was a well established piece of lore. Assault cannons are also a post-heresy invention; I don't think chaos terminators can take those either?

As for the whole "well chaos has forgeworlds tooooo OMG GW WHY WTF" arguement, chaos dudes get stuff like, oh, you know, daemonic possession? Sentient swords? Daemon engines? I'm talking strictly from a fluff standpoint here of course. And remember, the traitor legions were heavily damaged and routed after an all-out assault on Terra, so much of their tech (artillery, pre-heresy "stuff") was probably abandoned or damaged beyond repair. In their current state, thousands of years later, some of their gear (primarily armor, power armor is difficult to manufacture/maintain) is scavenged from fallen Imperial soldiers. The darkmech is likely focused on the aftermentioned daemon things or making true AI or some crap like that and can't be bothered with something as trivial as a stormbolter.

Dark Mechanicus isn't just Daemon Focused, they make normal weapons and gear too.

Seriously, despite GW's insistence now, they do have things like 'supply depots' and 'logistics'.

ted234521 wrote:I was just thinking the same thing actually, perhaps the combi bolter is in fact better for some reason? I can see traitor forces wanting to keep their old gear instead, seeing as pre heresy technology is vastly superior in most cases.

Or, how about this? Perhaps the reason they had combi-bolters but phased them out for storm bolters is because during the heresy they lost the STC for combi-weapons. The IoM doesn't have them anymore (except in very rare cases) because they just don't know how to make them anymore.

Yes. The art of duct taping one gun to another is a secret lost to the ages. Except for the orks.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

ted234521 wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
More of a rant then a thread, but why can't chaos terminators get storm bolters? From what I can tell, the chaos version is just a twin linked bolter, with NO assault! I feel as thought that would be far mor appropriate for chaos terminators (more choppy) then the loyalists, what do you think?

Because of fluff. Stormbolters didn't even exist pre-heresy, or if they did they were relatively new and in short supply. ALL termies before Horus had a hissy fit used combi-bolters. I can't remember exactly where I heard this, but I thought it was a well established piece of lore. Assault cannons are also a post-heresy invention; I don't think chaos terminators can take those either?

As for the whole "well chaos has forgeworlds tooooo OMG GW WHY WTF" arguement, chaos dudes get stuff like, oh, you know, daemonic possession? Sentient swords? Daemon engines? I'm talking strictly from a fluff standpoint here of course. And remember, the traitor legions were heavily damaged and routed after an all-out assault on Terra, so much of their tech (artillery, pre-heresy "stuff") was probably abandoned or damaged beyond repair. In their current state, thousands of years later, some of their gear (primarily armor, power armor is difficult to manufacture/maintain) is scavenged from fallen Imperial soldiers. The darkmech is likely focused on the aftermentioned daemon things or making true AI or some crap like that and can't be bothered with something as trivial as a stormbolter.

Dark Mechanicus isn't just Daemon Focused, they make normal weapons and gear too.

Seriously, despite GW's insistence now, they do have things like 'supply depots' and 'logistics'.

sure they do, but the point isn't a bad one, I suspect the dark mechanius' focus has shifted from pure technological innovation to "mating the warp with technology"

I mean why spend countless centuries working on say... Vengence rounds, when you can just "warpify" your ammo and get inferno bolts?