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Knights look like just what we need to be introduced to the game to shake up the meta...strong enough to take down some elitest xeno forces...but not really effective at killing bugs.

Your take on it?

I think it'll be interesting to fight against them with nids. There's very little in the nid list that can take it on, so I think you'll just want to feed it gaunts so it can't do any serious damage. Make sure it doesn't get near any multi-wound monsters.

The double shot battle cannon could do some damage depending on what you take.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think it'll be interesting to fight against them with nids. There's very little in the nid list that can take it on, so I think you'll just want to feed it gaunts so it can't do any serious damage. Make sure it doesn't get near any multi-wound monsters.

The double shot battle cannon could do some damage depending on what you take.

None of it's weapons are all too dangerous to bugs...and none of our weapons are all too dangerous to it. Besides Zoanthropes



So it's more about...how does it change the meta as a whole...kind of like when we saw flyer relief immediately following the release of Tau.

That massive chainsaw? going to saw our huge monstrous creatures into two chunks, but against the little gritters, it's going to do nothing pretty much? The ordinance gun could cause some problems though against our little ones though.

 tomball0706 wrote:
That massive chainsaw? going to saw our huge monstrous creatures into two chunks, but against the little gritters, it's going to do nothing pretty much? The ordinance gun could cause some problems though against our little ones though.

Well, it's a slow hulking thing...so, just avoid it? Ordinance...unless It's got tigger behind it for ignores cover...not afraid of it.

Also, I know that my meta, and everywhere I have been lately has houseruled Strength D into S10 AP1 (saves allowed)

I actually think it's pretty scary for the Nids. It's not slow at all (12" movement). It easily kills any MC it touches.

Using hordes as a tarpit seems like a good option, but don't forget the stomp attacks. With a little luck (i.e. 3 stomp attacks), it can easily kill 10-15 gants per turn.

Granted, it's expensive enough that we can still come out ahead. 60 Hormagaunts should definitely hold it for the entire game and cost significantly less.

Watch it have 48" inch move before running. 25 point piece of wargear.

Siphen wrote:
Granted, it's expensive enough that we can still come out ahead. 60 Hormagaunts should definitely hold it for the entire game and cost significantly less.

Theres the ticket!

It kills us all the same, but much less points at a time compared to most other armies...

 ductvader wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:
That massive chainsaw? going to saw our huge monstrous creatures into two chunks, but against the little gritters, it's going to do nothing pretty much? The ordinance gun could cause some problems though against our little ones though.

Well, it's a slow hulking thing...so, just avoid it? Ordinance...unless It's got tigger behind it for ignores cover...not afraid of it.

Also, I know that my meta, and everywhere I have been lately has houseruled Strength D into S10 AP1 (saves allowed)

So you're not afraid of it, because you've agreed with other players to neuter it? I mean, it makes sense but at least when I say "I don't like the idea of D strength weapons in regular games" you'll know where I'm coming from. Especially since D strength hurts Tyranids more than most other armies, due to our number of multi-wound models being much higher than other armies.

(I am going by the old D weapon rules, so if they changed in the most recent version of Apoc and no longer ID everything then let me know.)

 streamdragon wrote:
(I am going by the old D weapon rules, so if they changed in the most recent version of Apoc and no longer ID everything then let me know.)

It's very similar in effect...there a table...with one being nothing...the second set of rolls 2-something being a fair number of automatic wounds to each model hit...and the highest damage level being double the amount of wounds to each model hit.

It kills most things it hits...by a lot.

Regardless, Strength D Melee Weapons, I would freely play. Strength D shooting means my tactics mean nothing.

Weirdly enough, they're terribly vulnerable to a Carnifex charge. Even a single Carnifex charging it brings d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks, and the 4+ shield save doesn't help against melee. If you're running with scythes + crushing claws (unlikely, but hey), then a single Carni can smash it to bits.

Which is just *odd* but, you know, rock out, you crazy classic Zillabug you!

 ductvader wrote:
Also, I know that my meta, and everywhere I have been lately has houseruled Strength D into S10 AP1 (saves allowed)

Well if you do that, you take away a lot of it's bite against monstrous creatures and should probably give it a points drop to compensate. It goes from being able to kill a Hive Tyrant in a turn to taking 3 turns. It also goes from being able to go toe to toe with Carnies to being a light snack for them.

The 2 ordinance blasts depend on what you have taken. If you took any raveners or warriors, it could hurt. If you can stay in cover the whole time you might minimise the damage, but I've always found my Battle Cannons to be somewhat effective against Tyranids.

But yeah, I guess thinking about it, it won't actually be that interesting. You feed it gaunts, it stomps them, you feed it more gaunts, it stomps them, game ends and you probably haven't inflicted any damage on it and it's wiped out maybe 150-200pts worth of gaunts and whatever it did with it's battle cannon before you charged it (maybe another 50pts worth of models).

That said, it is fast and it's not huge like a lot of other superheavy walkers (same base as a Trygon). So your opponent may be able to avoid the gaunts and hit something juicier. Maybe leave it in the backfield for a while shooting and once the gaunts are tied up elsewhere, charge forward in to any monstrous creatures that are wandering about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
Weirdly enough, they're terribly vulnerable to a Carnifex charge. Even a single Carnifex charging it brings d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks, and the 4+ shield save doesn't help against melee. If you're running with scythes + crushing claws (unlikely, but hey), then a single Carni can smash it to bits.

Which is just *odd* but, you know, rock out, you crazy classic Zillabug you!

From memory a single Carni, on average, will inflict 2 to 3 points of damage on the charge. Then the Knight, on average, will kill the Carni in a single turn of combat (3 attacks, 2 hits on average, so 2D3+2 wounds on average = dead Carni).

If you want to kill it without throwing away lots of points, you'd want to soften it up first and charge it with 2 or 3 Carnies. Also it's a hell of a lot faster than a Carni, so you'll have to tie it up with something like Gargoyles the previous turn to have any chance of charging it, so you've probably thrown away 60pts worth of Gargoyles too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:
Regardless, Strength D Melee Weapons, I would freely play. Strength D shooting means my tactics mean nothing.

S: D melee weapons definitely aren't as scary, but if you take away its S: D, you turn it from something you can't easily kill in to something that is trivial for a couple of Carnis to tear apart.

S: D for the Knight is as much a defensive thing as anything. It has the 4+ inv to protect against shooting and it has the S: D CCW to stop you from just charging in expensive high strength units to pull it apart in combat. Without the S: D, it's not worth near as many points as it costs as it's significantly easier to kill.

3 Carnifexs with adrenal glands comes out to close to the cost a knight.

If you can get them into charge range you are looking at ~6 high strength HoW hits before either the models are really going to strike, its possible from the HoW hits alone to hurt or even kill the knight. The HoW hits auto hit so 6 hits, for funsies lets say you roll a 1,2,3,4,5,6 on the 6 dice. thats 1 glance and 3 pens vs rear armor 12. Which could possible outright kill it right there.

3 attacks from it at WS4 will get 1-2 hits, which has a decent chance of gibbing 1-2 carnifexes, most likely 1. even without any house rules a 1 does nothing, and the other majority effect does d3+1 wounds, which has a 66.6% chance of not outright killing a carnifex... Which means a hit from a D weapon has less than a 50% chance to actually outright kill a 4 wound carnifex.

so lets say we get a little bit, and I mean just slightly better than average for us, lucky and it gibs 1 carnifex...

you then make your attacks which is 5 attacks each if charging with double scy talons, so 10 attacks at str10. Most likely 5 hits. Most likely 3-4 pens. The knight is now dead on average, and didnt get its initiative 1 stomp attacks.

Of course it will be shooting the crap out of you on the way in so...

Yeah, on average, 3 carnies on the charge will kill it at the expense of 1 carni. I think I calculated 7.8 hull points lost on the charge and 1 dead carni.

The only problem with that, I personally would never take 3 CC equipped carnis like that, and even if I did, the thing moves 12", so it could probably avoid combat most the game, or at least until Vendettas kill off all the Carnies

Realistically, it's not going to be easy to bring it down with 3 carnies because you need the charge. You might be able to tie it up with Gargoyles and stomp it with the Carnies, but you have to survive a few rounds of shooting, make sure your screening units don't get tied up by the Knight's screening units and make sure it doesn't just walk away from the Carnies.

I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

blaktoof wrote:
...vs rear armor 12. Which could possible outright kill it right there.

It's a walker, don't you attack the front armour?

blaktoof wrote:3 Carnifexs with adrenal glands comes out to close to the cost a knight.

If you can get them into charge range you are looking at ~6 high strength HoW hits before either the models are really going to strike, its possible from the HoW hits alone to hurt or even kill the knight. The HoW hits auto hit so 6 hits, for funsies lets say you roll a 1,2,3,4,5,6 on the 6 dice. thats 1 glance and 3 pens vs rear armor 12. Which could possible outright kill it right there.

3 attacks from it at WS4 will get 1-2 hits, which has a decent chance of gibbing 1-2 carnifexes, most likely 1. even without any house rules a 1 does nothing, and the other majority effect does d3+1 wounds, which has a 66.6% chance of not outright killing a carnifex... Which means a hit from a D weapon has less than a 50% chance to actually outright kill a 4 wound carnifex.

so lets say we get a little bit, and I mean just slightly better than average for us, lucky and it gibs 1 carnifex...

you then make your attacks which is 5 attacks each if charging with double scy talons, so 10 attacks at str10. Most likely 5 hits. Most likely 3-4 pens. The knight is now dead on average, and didnt get its initiative 1 stomp attacks.

Of course it will be shooting the crap out of you on the way in so...

So you are aware melee attacks against Walkers are resolved against front Armour. Not a huge difference but significant.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

Thats what I've been trying to figure out, there hasnt been a solid answer with leaks yet

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

That's one of the big questions, there. 6.5/7th edition's release may, or may not, go ahead and put super-heavy and similar rulesets right into the main rules.

Which isn't a happy thing in my view, but other views vary.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

That depends on how you define "non-escalation game". GW's rules don't have any such concept, so it's up to you to define what your "no escalation" house rule consists of. I suspect the popular version is going to be "no superheavies or GCs" so knights would clearly be banned, but if you define it as "no lords of war" then the answer might depend on what FOC slot they're assigned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
6.5/7th edition's release may, or may not, go ahead and put super-heavy and similar rulesets right into the main rules.

They already are in the main rules, just like every new codex is.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

They work thusly.

3-6 knights is a primary detachment and can be taken in normal 40k, you need to reference escalation or apoc for a couple rules though

Any army can ally 1-3 Knights as its allied detachment, RAW, it has no ally matrix and thus can even be yaken by nid.

considering escalation is normal 40k..its not optional anymore then say the eldar codex.. but whatever.

I'm guessing they are going to be allies or a formation, since Lord of War slots are usually 1 model and you can take 1, or 3 or 5 of them apparently as a whatever slot.

Also thanks for pointing out that its not rear armor, as they are walkers, which still puts them at AV13 versus Strength 10, not much better but better.

I also agree that getting 3 carnies unmolested into combat with a knight is a task in of itself :0

My Fiancee ordered me one for anniversary (I know, she's a gem)... Will be bringing it to every Tau and Eldar game to give the Blood Angels a hope in hell.

blaktoof wrote:
considering escalation is normal 40k..its not optional anymore then say the eldar codex.. but whatever.

Blatantly false. Considering a huge amount of tournaments now are banning escalation rules because no one even wants to play the guy with a Revanant Titan, it doesn't matter what your interpretation of the book says.

If it looks like an expansion, smells like an expansion, and plays like an expansion, it's probably an expansion. Show up with a Lord of War at a FLGS and you'll be sitting alone while everyone else plays on. Tournaments are tournaments and are always subject to the rules of the TO, so it does't matter what "regular 40k allows."

 Krellnus wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

They work thusly.

3-6 knights is a primary detachment and can be taken in normal 40k, you need to reference escalation or apoc for a couple rules though

Any army can ally 1-3 Knights as its allied detachment, RAW, it has no ally matrix and thus can even be yaken by nid.

The WD says it can only be allied or attached to Imperial Forces...

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blatantly false. Considering a huge amount of tournaments now are banning escalation rules because no one even wants to play the guy with a Revanant Titan, it doesn't matter what your interpretation of the book says.

That's nice. What a few third-party TOs do is irrelevant to anyone that isn't playing in their tournaments. Their house rules might be useful for their own events, but they aren't normal 40k.

If it looks like an expansion, smells like an expansion, and plays like an expansion, it's probably an expansion.

Except it doesn't look like an expansion, just like C:SM doesn't look like an expansion. The fact that you want it to be an expansion so you can ban it doesn't make it one. You're always free to refuse to play with anyone who uses those rules, just like you're free to refuse to play against C:SM, but that doesn't mean that your house rule is in any way part of the normal rules of the game.

Show up with a Lord of War at a FLGS and you'll be sitting alone while everyone else plays on.

Sounds like you just play with a bunch of TFGs that insist on having veto power over everyone's army.

Find me where in the rule book it says you have the right to field whatever you want. In fact, find something about "rights" of players at all.

People bandy about the term "it's a permission based game!" all the time when discussing rules, yet forget the most important permission of all is to spend time another human being.

Page 8, "The Spirit of the Game"
"Warhammer 40,000 may be somewhat different to any other game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more, Warhammer 40,000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your job isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that the rules have been written."

If you want to field something that'll cost me a month's rent or more to combat, go ahead and bring it. Just don't expect me to play you. Whine all you want about "But it's the rules and it's allowed!" because I'm a grown man who's down at the FLGS to enjoy my day and spend time with friends. I'm not going to enjoy playing you if you bring a Revenant Titan. I'm not going to enjoy playing you if you bring an Imperial Knight from the looks of what that model can do. So, I am not going to play you because I value my time.

Considering big name tournaments are having people refuse games with folks bringing super heavies, sorry. If it feels like an expansion, plays like an expansion and in all ways modifies the game in a way as drastic as an expansion does, it's an expansion.

If I'm "TFG" to you because I pre-arrange the types of games I'm going to play with friends so we agree on a game (and afternoon, really) that we'll both enjoy, okay. Please put me on ignore, because I respectfully disagree and I'd rather not waste either of our time acknowledging your existence.

By all means, if you think the Knights are cool, get one. Get two! Spend two months building a really cool model getting it painted and showing it off as a centerpiece to your talent as an artist. Just know most people aren't going to care what "regular 40k" is (hahaha, "regular 40k" as if there is such a thing). You know who the guys in your area are that'll agree to play you so go play with them.

The part you highlighted says "adds to" not "removes from".

Cynic in me thinks GW released escalation so they could clear more confusion with another book sale in 7th ed.

Speaking of which, can't wait until 7th so we don't have to keep seeing these arguements. Super heavies and LoW are likely here to stay. Sell the deathstar for rent and go buy the D, this is the game you play.

It's not unreasonable to say "Nah, I'm not playing with escalation stuff."
I don't understand why some people are allergic to talking to the other player to make sure they're roughly on the same page. It takes ten seconds.

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's not unreasonable to say "Nah, I'm not playing with escalation stuff."
I don't understand why some people are allergic to talking to the other player to make sure they're roughly on the same page. It takes ten seconds.

I think that's fine as long as escalation is separate, that's a reasonable request for most people. If escalation gets integrated in to the main rulebook or there is a codex that revolves around a S: D superheavy, it becomes a less reasonable request, kind of like saying "I don't play games that include vehicles" or "I'm not playing against Tyranids".