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You really think if it gets integrated into the main rule book, it'll "stop" the argument that Lords of War and Super Heavies are so game-breaking they aren't fun to play against in a casual manner?

Legitimately curious why you think that.

It is always a reasonable request of an opponent to ask you to not play something. Doesn't matter if it is straight from a codex. If you win by turn 2 because the guy you're playing against can't handle the army you fielded, did you have fun? Again, legitimately curious. Most the hyper competitive guys I know dislike games over that quickly because they spend more time setting up the game table than actually playing. Bringing armies of relative power levels tend to be the most enjoyable games according to most people I know. We had a guy bringing 3 riptides for awhile, until people simply said "Really? Again? Come on man, it's not even fun to play you." Now he just brings 1. Because we're all friends, and think it's more fun to be friendly and respectful toward each other than win at toy soldiers.

The Warhammer 40k I signed up for is the one in the base rulebook. Big giant massive single-handedly-destroys-entire-armies units were always relegated to Apoc, which was fun when you agreed upon it. If you don't find escalation totally game-changing, well okay I guess? I disagree with you there, respectfully.

We live in the real world. If you expect giant "I win!" units in casual gameplay, I'll just leave it at I'm glad I don't live around the same scene you do. There are so many other things to do and enjoy in life than indulge someone's ego at winning at competitive Yahtzee.

Feelz like you are demonizing the inevitable because of one eldar model.

For many people, it isn't about winning or losing, it's about enjoying the time playing.

@Rismonite: I already don't play the guy who brings Wave Serpent spam every week, because he's already thoroughly thrashed my meager Dark Angels so it's not fun. Mind you, I am expanding my space marines to a codex chapter, the Red Scorpions, and he refuses to play me when I'm utilizing those models because "Forgeworld is OP."

I don't get mad and try to force my opinions about what the game does and does not allow for casual play down his throat to get him to relent and play against Sevrin Loth, because I respect his right to not spend 2 to 3 hours doing something he isn't going to enjoy even if that reason is because he decided beforehand he wouldn't enjoy it. I actually love the guy to death and consider him a good friend. I just think his army is obnoxious and would rather spend my time hanging out with him discussing cool models we're working on than get obliterated at rolling dice.

Did out your Escalation book and read up on Super-heavy Walkers. They get Hammer of Wrath and Smash. Have you read smash? Forget the D weapon in close combat. You place d3 blast markers one at a time, and they could go out up to about 12" away- the first one has to be placed touching the base of the Super-Heavy, the next one within 3" of the first one, and the last one within 3" of the second template. The rule doesn't say you have to place it over the engaged unit. Think about that for a second!

The smash table- two tables, one for vehicles, one for non-vehicles. They are both pretty similar. 1- nothing. 2-5 take some extra hits. 6- remove all models even partially under the template from play. Vehicles automatically explode.

The argument about allowing or not allowing this stuff is immaterial; it's here now, and people will buy it and want to play with it. If you (not targeting a specific person here or anything) refuse to allow them, then you might be playing fewer games in the future. That would be sad.

Back to the topic at hand Knights are Superheavies so if I am right you need to remove ALL 6 HPs to kill it. They are not normal viechles that a single punch can make go away. So your carnies HOW attacks have to glance/punch 6 times to take it down before it swings and eats 1-2 carnies possible all 3 if it rolls are hot.

Right now I'm digging the fact that I can take one with my Tyranids. I have no clue how long that will last as I suspect that there will be more rules released than the 2 pages in the WD (or whatever they call the weekly,) but for right now it's a fun little bonus. If the model has a cockpit you can open up, I might just have to put a Genestealer in there for S&Gs.

I believe as was stated earlier they are Imperial only. So no bugs allowed sorry:(

Orkhead wrote:
Back to the topic at hand Knights are Superheavies so if I am right you need to remove ALL 6 HPs to kill it. They are not normal viechles that a single punch can make go away. So your carnies HOW attacks have to glance/punch 6 times to take it down before it swings and eats 1-2 carnies possible all 3 if it rolls are hot.

Carnies have 5 attacks after the HOW. So even if it kills 1-2 Carnis, it will still probably die unless you get unlucky. You lost 120-240pts worth of models to kill a 370pt model.

Of course you probably threw 60pts of gaunts at it as well to tie it up. Then you probably lost a unit or two to shooting before you got in to combat with it.

So really, the best you can hope for is that it doesn't kill more than it's points are worth and you have to throw a huge amount of effort at it to kill it. Hopefully they don't have 2 in an army, lol.

The safer way to deal with it is just throw gaunts at it each turn for it to stomp to death, you'll lose maybe 200pts of gaunts but otherwise be ok.

Orkhead wrote:
I believe as was stated earlier they are Imperial only. So no bugs allowed sorry:(

There are no restrictions placed on who can take them as allies, neither are there any armies explicitly listed as being able to take them. So right now either nobody can take them or everybody can. I fully expect more rules to be released (although I'm not sure in what format) that will change this up, but for now if you want to have your Hive Fleet Knightviathan, go for it.

 SRSFACE wrote:
You really think if it gets integrated into the main rule book, it'll "stop" the argument that Lords of War and Super Heavies are so game-breaking they aren't fun to play against in a casual manner?

Legitimately curious why you think that.

I'm not sure who you're replying to, if it was me, then no, I don't think you should stop making the argument. IMO GW should out and out make a tiered system for 40k. A set of rules for skirmish. A set of rules for typical infantry + couple of vehicles. A set of rules for infantry + couple of vehicles + mid sized superheavies like the Wraithknight and Imperial Knight. A set of rules for Apocalypse.

It is always a reasonable request of an opponent to ask you to not play something. Doesn't matter if it is straight from a codex

It becomes less reasonable and more annoying if the rules you don't like are main rulebook rules and if the things you are asking them not to play are an entire codex. Granted, you can still ask, but if most people start accepting escalation (which could easily become the core rules and not an expansion and could easily be required to play an army, eg. Imperial Knights codex), then the request is less reasonable and more "TFG" outside of just your friends.

 SRSFACE wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
considering escalation is normal 40k..its not optional anymore then say the eldar codex.. but whatever.

Blatantly false. Considering a huge amount of tournaments now are banning escalation rules because no one even wants to play the guy with a Revanant Titan, it doesn't matter what your interpretation of the book says.

If it looks like an expansion, smells like an expansion, and plays like an expansion, it's probably an expansion. Show up with a Lord of War at a FLGS and you'll be sitting alone while everyone else plays on. Tournaments are tournaments and are always subject to the rules of the TO, so it does't matter what "regular 40k allows."

I apologize, I realize you have personal feelings on the matter but it is not false. The fortifications, weapons, and Lords of War selections in these books are not listed as optional or supplemental rules. Only the updated buildings rules in stronghold assault are listed as optional, much like dog fighting is listed as optional in death from the skies, however just like death from the skies dark eldar can take their flyers and so can orks, because they are not listed as optional, just as the fortifications and lords of war in these books are not listed as optional.

A recent tournament made it so you cannot reroll a 2+ save with a 2+, but needed a 4+ that is not a normal 40k rule, but was the agreement to modify the core rules at the tournament. Many people do feel escalation brings unwanted things into 40k and opt not to use them, but you are agreeing to remove something that is currently part of the core rules [non optional] and of course we as the players have that right if we agree to it with each other

Escalation and Stronghold assault are no less optional than the fliers from death from the skies, or anything from the dark angels codex.

of course no one is ever forcing anyone to play with the actual rules of the game, so you can at anytime under the spirit of the game to agree not to use certain rules which are part of the current core of 40k, such as fliers, escalation, heavy support selections, the tau codex, etc.

If Knights count as scoring, as hinted at by the GW facebook page, it will be difficult for Nids to dislodge them from an objective.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused, are these Lords of War or something we can expect to see even in non-escalation games?

They work thusly.

3-6 knights is a primary detachment and can be taken in normal 40k, you need to reference escalation or apoc for a couple rules though

Any army can ally 1-3 Knights as its allied detachment, RAW, it has no ally matrix and thus can even be yaken by nid.

that we've not yet seen the codexes ally matrix in the PREVIEWS, does not mean it lacks an allies matrix

Ok so you charge it with 5 Carnifex... take off 6 individual hit points... it now explodes causing everyone within 2.5" to take a sD ap2 hit (admittedly with scatter). Those Carnifex won't like that one bit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Just something brought up over in tactics)

Cheap scoring super-Heavies with the ability to murder any of my MCs in combat with ease?
No, I'm not excited, I'm rocking in fear.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok so you charge it with 5 Carnifex... take off 6 individual hit points... it now explodes causing everyone within 2.5" to take a sD ap2 hit (admittedly with scatter). Those Carnifex won't like that one bit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Just something brought up over in tactics)

Well I wouldn't charge it with 5, I'd charge it with 3, and I'd probably try and take off a HP with shooting first. But yeah, you could lose the rest of the carnies to the explosion. Unfortunately, the models base is a bit smaller than the catastrophic D damage radius, a lot of walkers are big enough that even if you're in base contact, you still won't take a S: D hit when it blows, I think it's going to be hard to avoid on the Knight though.

On one level as someone who played adeptus titanicus when it came out I look forward to seeing a well painted knight on the table against me.

I fully suspect I will have no answer to it and it will make a mockery of my mc and other units... And therefore I wouldn't enjoy seeing it again !

I also can't imagine taking a list specifically to take it down to tournament unless 'everyone' is using them as it would be too restrictive.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok so you charge it with 5 Carnifex... take off 6 individual hit points... it now explodes causing everyone within 2.5" to take a sD ap2 hit (admittedly with scatter). Those Carnifex won't like that one bit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Just something brought up over in tactics)

Well I wouldn't charge it with 5, I'd charge it with 3, and I'd probably try and take off a HP with shooting first. But yeah, you could lose the rest of the carnies to the explosion. Unfortunately, the models base is a bit smaller than the catastrophic D damage radius, a lot of walkers are big enough that even if you're in base contact, you still won't take a S: D hit when it blows, I think it's going to be hard to avoid on the Knight though.

Mistype... meant 3...