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Is there any good way to counter MSU (multiple small units) without bringing MSU yourself? My friend brings a pretty casual space marine list with 6 units of 10 Tactical Marines, plus lots of other goodies. In basically every game, he combat squads everything and has ~20 individual units to deal with (and 12 scoring units). Despite being a casual list, it's been giving everyone some trouble.

I know multi-assaults can be good (but a lot of people here play shooting-based armies). I know we can place more objectives on our side, forcing him to advance (but only if we win the roll off). He also doesn't do quite as well with fewer objectives (Relic, Emperor's Will) or Kill Points...but the other half of the missions will have 3-6 objectives.

Are there any good strategies in that worst-case scenario? (He has more objectives on his side and 3-4 scoring units on each objective. You don't have any assault units.)

Templates. Loads and loads of AP3 templates. Doesn't even matter if they scatter, because from your description they're bound to hit another unit anyway

Out range him then prioritize killing his squads with long range weapons (missiles, lascannons, etc) after you clean them up and you got everything over a 24 inch range you can pummel him from a distance and make him have to come out of hiding if he wants to engage you. Plus kill points has got to be murder on him. Pie plates will be your friend.

I play as MSU and love it. The only problem is waac people who insist on playing Kill-Point games. This makes playing the game pretty pointless as with 10 plus units I are bound to lose, even if I table the guy.

If you table, you win. Kill points don't matter.

 scommy wrote:
I play as MSU and love it. The only problem is waac people who insist on playing Kill-Point games. This makes playing the game pretty pointless as with 10 plus units I are bound to lose, even if I table the guy.

Well, if you table him you auto win, so that's not a problem.

Most tournaments that I go to have at least one mission with Kill Points as the primary objective. The MSU player probably has an advantage over other armies in non-kill point games so this gives everyone else a shot at him.

Now doing MSU with Combat Squads means that he doesn't have to split during kill point games, but Space Marines need something to help them in the current meta...

More than combat squads for sure.

MSU is tricky because the game so generously rewards it. The best counter to MSU is MSU of your own.

If you don't want to do this, though, I'd recommend going the complete opposite way. I ran a list for a while that was essentially three units. Because of this, it was practically impossible for my opponent to get first blood, especially if he was running MSU.

And once you get first blood, all you need to do is force a draw on objectives (which is usually pretty easy), and then voila, you win on secondaries. This is especially true given that MSU usually offers up a more vulnerable slay the warlord point.

Of course, the only mission where you can't explicitly go for a draw is purge, but if you are bringing only a few units against MSU, you shouldn't be having problems winning that mission.

Martel732 wrote:
If you table, you win. Kill points don't matter.

Jeesus this annoys me(but many thank for the info). As a noob I am starting to get really pissed off with people pulling the wool over my eyes because I dont know all the rules.
Why dont people just play with a bit of honour? Is beating a new player by any means really something to be happy about?

Position is the game he is playing. I think I would approach MSU with position.

Imagine a Purina symbol of objectives. Kepp in mind you only need to contest 3 and control two for example to ENSURE a win against secondary objectives. So play that game. Plan all your moves for that and only strike, but as overwhelming force, where needed to do it but with a primary goal of keeping units alive and mobile enough to simply REACH those other objectives while the rest of the army plays a wall on two of the objectives.

MSU, unless tau, is also extremely vulnerable to assault, by the sheer fact even non-assault units can overwhelm them.

Honestly, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding what it is that is giving people problems. Sure, 12 tactical combat squads gives him excellent scoring coverage, but his damage output is going to be so low...

 BoomWolf wrote:
MSU, unless tau, is also extremely vulnerable to assault, by the sheer fact even non-assault units can overwhelm them.

Let's face it. Lots of even full units are vulnerable to assault. You think 10 tac marines stand up better than 5? They don't. The problem is not being shot to bits by Xeno lists. Assault works decently against marines because marines don't have the firepower to stop assault from happening. And tac marines are totally helpless in assault. Not a good combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scommy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you table, you win. Kill points don't matter.

Jeesus this annoys me(but many thank for the info). As a noob I am starting to get really pissed off with people pulling the wool over my eyes because I dont know all the rules.
Why dont people just play with a bit of honour? Is beating a new player by any means really something to be happy about?

Unfortunately, as a new player, you must read the base rule book VERY carefully. If there is ever a GAME turn, not PLAYER turn, that ends and one player has nothing on the table, that player loses.

 BoomWolf wrote:
MSU, unless tau, is also extremely vulnerable to assault, by the sheer fact even non-assault units can overwhelm them.

But MSU can make use of speedbumps. And a single failed close combat won't cause nearly as much damage. Plus, in order to attack more than one squad, you now have to make a disordered charge.

If anything, they're LESS vulnerable, not more.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Honestly, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding what it is that is giving people problems. Sure, 12 tactical combat squads gives him excellent scoring coverage, but his damage output is going to be so low...

No. His output doesn't slow down as fast when he does this because units will overkill the Mariens but it does nothing. Whentheres only 5 that CAN die, then all the overkill is wasted energy. The combat squadding conserves the overall strength of the list longer.

I understand that; I'm saying if he went with a couple less tac squads he could afford some killier units instead. How many points is he playing at? Even at 2k points I could only ever see myself using 40, maybe 50 Tacticals.

2k i am assuming. 30 Tacticals and a unit of scouts is quite typical and a very good mix but i dont know what he's facing. 60 Tactical Marines all with a Flakk Missile tucked in there is never a bad day though. It truly is WORK to kill that many marines, and they aren't even a majority of your points.

 Jancoran wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Honestly, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding what it is that is giving people problems. Sure, 12 tactical combat squads gives him excellent scoring coverage, but his damage output is going to be so low...

No. His output doesn't slow down as fast when he does this because units will overkill the Mariens but it does nothing. Whentheres only 5 that CAN die, then all the overkill is wasted energy. The combat squadding conserves the overall strength of the list longer.

Yeah, I don't think that forcing overkill on your opponent is going to make up for the carrier costs problems MSU has.

That said, the carrier cost problems MSU have are more than made up for by other things.