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So I am facing a Custom Stompa from IA and it has grot guided missiles that hit on a 2+. He wants to shoot them at my zooming flyer (Storm Raven). Does he hit on a 2+? Can he even fire at the Raven?

Relevant FAQ Rules.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes

This he says means the grot missile will hit b/c he says it is like an auto hit ability. Of course I disagree. He rolls a 2+ how can it be an auto hit? What snap shots auto hit flyers? What are they talking about here psyker powers?

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Is grot guided a special rule? It seems so so he can't hit on a 2+ right? Grot guided is a special ability hitting on a 2+.

Q: Can I choose to make a Snap Shot rather than a normal
shot? (p13)
A: No.

A grot Guided has no option to fire as a snap shot so can he even snap it at my Raven?

2+ isn't an autohit as a natural 1 always fails.

I agree that what is important is how it fires snap shots.

Q1. Yup, I see no flaw in your reasoning there. Rolling 1 is a fail.

Q2. Seems the special rule doesnt modify the BS, it just hits on a 2+, so you may be out of luck there.

Q3. Im assuming this ruling is to prevent players from intentionally missing with weapons, though there seems to be little reason for it. The grot missile would still be making a snap shot, it just hits on a 2+.

But, I dont have the rules from IA, so please ignore me until rules can back me up.

It is resolved as a snap shot, so hits at bs1

The FAQ for wanting to fire a snap shot instead of a normal shot is in regard of the Grey Knight Psycannon I think.

If you move you fire it at assault 4 but you could snapshot it as a heavy at 6. So if you wanted to be cheesy you could fire it at 6 at a flyer.

imo I think you may be out of luck on this one.

he is incorrect in his assessment, you are correct that it is still a shooting attack that can normally fail on a roll of a 1, this is fact.

you are incorrect in your assessment that the grot cannot be fired as a snap shot, there is no rule preventing it from being fired as a snap shot so the default is that it can.

the 2+ to hit I assume is the special rule of the grot missile, this shot therefore doesn't care what your BS is, conversely it is also not modifying the BS of the shot either so the FAQ entry is not applicable.

in short, yes he can 'snap shot' at your flyer, and yes it hits on a 2+ because it has a rule that stipulates that's the roll he needs to succeed.

note there is no rule that says that a snap shot can only ever hit on a roll of a 6, Tau and markerlights are my example of needing less than a 6 to hit even after the modification to BS.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
imo I think you may be out of luck on this one.

he is incorrect in his assessment, you are correct that it is still a shooting attack that can normally fail on a roll of a 1, this is fact.

you are incorrect in your assessment that the grot cannot be fired as a snap shot, there is no rule preventing it from being fired as a snap shot so the default is that it can.

the 2+ to hit I assume is the special rule of the grot missile, this shot therefore doesn't care what your BS is, conversely it is also not modifying the BS of the shot either so the FAQ entry is not applicable.

in short, yes he can 'snap shot' at your flyer, and yes it hits on a 2+ because it has a rule that stipulates that's the roll he needs to succeed.

note there is no rule that says that a snap shot can only ever hit on a roll of a 6, Tau and markerlights are my example of needing less than a 6 to hit even after the modification to BS.

The only things that can modify a Snap Shot are those with specific permission, which markerlights have. Grot guided does not.

Does it state the Grot is resolved at 2+ ?
Could be a possible situation with two conflicting 'resolved at' rules, how interesting.

It is a special rule that states a Grot guided hit on a 2+.

But who has that Imperial Armor to check. I certainly know only that one orc player who has it.

No rule can alter the BS of a snap shot without very very specific allowance (see marker lights).

So either it's Snap Shooting at Bs1, or it's Snap Shooting and it can't hit a flyer.

If it's hitting on a 2+ it's not a Snap Shot.

The word 'Resolved' is what I am curious about, as that is a Terminology that can assist us in determining which rule trumps which.

JinxDragon wrote:
The word 'Resolved' is what I am curious about, as that is a Terminology that can assist us in determining which rule trumps which.

Would not matter. Specific vs General. The rule to hit a Flyer is more specific than a Snap shot rule.

 grendel083 wrote:
No rule can alter the BS of a snap shot without very very specific allowance (see marker lights).

So either it's Snap Shooting at Bs1, or it's Snap Shooting and it can't hit a flyer.

If it's hitting on a 2+ it's not a Snap Shot.

Grot guided doesn't modify BS. The Grot Guided special rule never even mentions BS. It hit very simply states "...hits on a 2+. By arguable logic the Stompa is shooting at BS1 and hitting on a 2+, just as normally it is shooting at BS2 and hitting on a 2+. Even if i might not play it that way.

Since a Grot Bomb does not have a BS and it is also a blast weapon it can not snap shoot. BRb Pg 13.

BRB Pg 81-Hard to hit-"blast weapons can not be fired at zooming flyers. " so unless the flyer is in hover mode a Grot Bomb can not be fired at all.

ork_smash wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
No rule can alter the BS of a snap shot without very very specific allowance (see marker lights).

So either it's Snap Shooting at Bs1, or it's Snap Shooting and it can't hit a flyer.

If it's hitting on a 2+ it's not a Snap Shot.

Grot guided doesn't modify BS. The Grot Guided special rule never even mentions BS. It hit very simply states "...hits on a 2+. By arguable logic the Stompa is shooting at BS1 and hitting on a 2+, just as normally it is shooting at BS2 and hitting on a 2+. Even if i might not play it that way.

Then it's not a Snap Shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
The word 'Resolved' is what I am curious about, as that is a Terminology that can assist us in determining which rule trumps which.

Hits on a 2+, doesn't say resolve.

Look at the similar ruling for markerlight-guided seeker missiles, which also automatically hit on a 2+. The answer there was that the "snap shots only" and "snap shots may not be modified above BS 1" rules take priority, and seeker missiles against flyers hit on 6s.

He didn't say it was a blast weapon. imperial Armor 8 is it a blast weapon?

 Mythra wrote:
He didn't say it was a blast weapon. imperial Armor 8 is it a blast weapon?

No, they aren't blast.

 Peregrine wrote:
Look at the similar ruling for markerlight-guided seeker missiles, which also automatically hit on a 2+. The answer there was that the "snap shots only" and "snap shots may not be modified above BS 1" rules take priority, and seeker missiles against flyers hit on 6s.

Seeker Missiles are (and were) fired at BS5, not "hit on a 2+".

which gun was it specifically? the supa-rokkit is grot guided but it is a heavy 1. so it can be fired as a snap shot, and shoot at a flier.

the whole of the rule for grot guided is "hits on a 2+" nothing to do with modifying BS. It just hits on a 2+.

so your model can fire it as a snap shot BS1, then with grot guided hit on a 2+.

Edited:

OK so I changed my mind. If it hits on a 2+ it doesn't use a BS at all so can't be fired as a snapshot.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

I think it is clear then he has to fire it as a snap if he wants to fire. It is a special rule doing the 2+.

If it doesn't use BS, and it doesn't because it hits on a 2+ rather than referencing BS, then it can't be fired as a Snap Shot and thus can't be fired at a Flyer (without Skyfire).

Yes, you fire it as a snap-shot.

Yes, you hit on a 2+, because snap shot means you shoot at BS1, not that you hit on 6s, and grot-guided do not care about your BS at all.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, you fire it as a snap-shot.

Yes, you hit on a 2+, because snap shot means you shoot at BS1, not that you hit on 6s, and grot-guided do not care about your BS at all.

No. As you pointed out it doesn't care about your BS at all. That means you can't fire it as a Snap Shot.

Now where did you get THAT idea?

The fact the BS is irrelevant does not matter the fact it is THERE, and it IS a part of the shooting attack, its just rendered irrelevant by the chain reaction.

Step 1-you target.
Step 2-you require to snap shoot due to your target.
Step 3-your BS is 1 instead of 2, meaning you hit on 6 rather then on 5.
Step 4-you hit on 2 anyway, regardless of your actual BS limits.

The point is, snap shooting modifies your BS, who in turn modifies your to-hit, but then the grot rule kicks in and directly modifies the to-hit yet again, making the change to BS, while there in the background, completely irrelevant.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now where did you get THAT idea?

The fact the BS is irrelevant does not matter the fact it is THERE, and it IS a part of the shooting attack, its just rendered irrelevant by the chain reaction.

Step 1-you target.
Step 2-you require to snap shoot due to your target.
Step 3-your BS is 1 instead of 2, meaning you hit on 6 rather then on 5.
Step 4-you hit on 2 anyway, regardless of your actual BS limits.

The point is, snap shooting modifies your BS, who in turn modifies your to-hit, but then the grot rule kicks in and directly modifies the to-hit yet again, making the change to BS, while there in the background, completely irrelevant.

pg 13, snap shots, read the important to note.

sirlynchmob wrote: pg 13, snap shots, read the important to note.

 MightyWeasel wrote:

But, I dont have the rules from IA, so please ignore me until rules can back me up.

Awww nuts, thought I was actually gonna be right on that one.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now where did you get THAT idea?

The fact the BS is irrelevant does not matter the fact it is THERE, and it IS a part of the shooting attack, its just rendered irrelevant by the chain reaction.

Step 1-you target.
Step 2-you require to snap shoot due to your target.
Step 3-your BS is 1 instead of 2, meaning you hit on 6 rather then on 5.
Step 4-you hit on 2 anyway, regardless of your actual BS limits.

The point is, snap shooting modifies your BS, who in turn modifies your to-hit, but then the grot rule kicks in and directly modifies the to-hit yet again, making the change to BS, while there in the background, completely irrelevant.

pg 13, snap shots, read the important to note.

I read it, and it is, in this case, irrelevant.
Its not that the weapon do not use BS, its is that the BS, whatever it is, gets later overwritten.

Should it work, RAI? no.
Does it work, RAW? yes.

Its the same as "wounds on X" weapons. its not that they dont test strength vs toughness, is that the result is overwritten.

(this is all under the assumption that the grot guilded rule makes things "hit on 2+", and not modify BS to 5.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
I read it, and it is, in this case, irrelevant.

No, it's very very relevant.

BRB Snap Shots wrote:It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill – such as the Necron Monolith’s portal of exile – cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

You're not using a Ballistic Skill. It's not a Snap Shot. Very straight forward, black and white.

No matter how you try to word it, hitting on a 2+ is NOT using the Ballistic Skill. Not a Snap Shot.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I read it, and it is, in this case, irrelevant.

No, it's very very relevant.

BRB Snap Shots wrote:It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill – such as the Necron Monolith’s portal of exile – cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

You're not using a Ballistic Skill. It's not a Snap Shot. Very straight forward, black and white.

No matter how you try to word it, hitting on a 2+ is NOT using the Ballistic Skill. Not a Snap Shot.

As Grendel quoted, rules are quite a clear no.

It's a shooting attack that doesn't use BS to work out what roll you hit on, and such attacks can not be snap shots. Only snap shots can hit zoomers or swoopers, so this attack can not hit them.