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I'm looking to attend the Alamo GT in May, so I have a lot of time to practice and tweak my list, but here is the concept I'm thinking of. Let me know what pros and cons you see and most especially any hard counters you can think of.

HQ:
Chaos Sorcerer – ML3, Sigil of Corruption, Spell Familiar, Chaos Bike, Burning Brand of Skalathrax
Chaos Lord – Mark of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury, Juggernaut

TROOPS:
10 x CSM – 7 x Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon, 1 x Flamer and Bolt Pistol, 1 x Flamer CC Weapon and Bolt Pistol, 1 x Meltabombs, Chaos Rhino, Dirge Caster
10 x CSM – Meltagun x 2, Meltabombs, Chaos Rhino, Dirge Caster
7 x CSM – Plasmagun, Chaos Rhino
5 x CSM – Plasmagun, Chaos Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake – Hades Autocannon
5 x Chaos Spawn
7 x Chaos Bikers, Mark of Nurgle, 2 x Meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield, Combi-Bolter
Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield, Combi-Bolter

TOTAL 1850 on the dot!

This has two serious fast and tough threats that will be in the enemy’s face ASAP. Hopefully the vindicators can bust some transports open to provide targets or eliminate some of the toughest threats early. STR10 AP2 gives the ability to instant death T5 and lower which is always huge.

Sorcerer on the bike takes either Telepathy or Biomancy depending on what I’m facing. Endurance on T6 bikers is sick. The Lord runs with spawn and can fold entire flanks all by himself.

The Heldrake has the Hades to provide some anti-air. It will help vs FMCs and most other fliers. I’ve really been getting good use out of it, and while the baleflamer is awesome, the rest of the list can shred infantry pretty easily.

Troops are weaker than I would like, but I went with CSM, because cultists feel like a waste. They get wasted and run away, so all they do is hide. At least this way my troops can contribute to the fight. I really like the dual flamer squad with CC weapons. It has done some serious work for me in the past. Eldar and tau hate flamers, and if they are going to be at that range, they can use the extra CC weapon.

As of now, it doesn't appear that dataslates will be allowed, so no Be'Lakor. I do have access to chaos daemons, but when I make lists adding them in, I feel like I should just run daemons as primary. I love playing daemons, but my focus right now is CSM.

This list also doesn't require me to buy anything else, so that's a plus. If I get a sudden influx of extra cash (LMAO at that chance) I would love to pick up Imperial Armor Apocalyps and convert up a couple of plasma relic predators and giant spawn. That's neither here nor there though.

It's no use of getting ccw on a squad in a rhino. Better off with bolters. I'd also get combi-weapons on sarges.
And Nurgle Spawns are awesome. I understand why you like AOBF but right now it's more preferable to be durable than hard hitting. Just cause it's edition dakka. So i'd go nurgle spawns with a nurgle biker lord [lc/pf] - they're really effective.

Assault Rhinos need XA and Dozer.

What is XA?

 Opera wrote:
What is XA?

Extra Armo(u)r presumably.

Obviously, anyone not playing Eldau, Taudar, or screamerstar is facing an uphill battle. What are some hard counters or other potential lists that might be nightmares to face?

 koooaei wrote:
It's no use of getting ccw on a squad in a rhino. Better off with bolters. I'd also get combi-weapons on sarges.
And Nurgle Spawns are awesome. I understand why you like AOBF but right now it's more preferable to be durable than hard hitting. Just cause it's edition dakka. So i'd go nurgle spawns with a nurgle biker lord [lc/pf] - they're really effective.

Good call on combi-weapons. I always forget about them.

I'll playtest bolters and the current setup and see which one works best for me. It's a minor and easy change, so I'll let the tabletop decide.

Nurgle Spawn are awesome, but I haven't been a fan of the Nurgle biker lord. When I've run him, he's been durable but nowhere near as threatening. He does unlock plague marines as troops, so that's something. It's a fundamental list change that would require re-writing the entire list.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Assault Rhinos need XA and Dozer.

That's a lot of extra points in to a fairly fragile platform. The dirge casters are really there to support the lord and sorcerer spawn and biker units. I usually flat out turn one and pop smoke to get in position and plan on the rhinos dying. If they do live then the dirge caster is a bonus, and if they don't they still have gotten my troops in to mid-field. If I can free the points up, dozer blades would be good to add, but I'll likely pass on extra armor.

You should main daemons, then ally in csm just to get the turkey like every cookie cutter list. You are going to a tourney so use any means necessary. Doing so will allow you to at least take like 4 fmc dp since csm hq can be a black mace prince.

Consolidate the 7man with the 5man csm into single 10man squad with 2 pg n use only 1 rhino.

I would much rather prefer oblits over vindi unless you care about av saturation.

Your biker sorc wants to be a mini drake. I would take ablative wound raptors n switch bike for disc of tzeentch. U can jump over dangerous terrain. U can even give them meltaguns. Doing so will save points.

Well, I'm planning on playing CSM and not daemons, so advice to play daemons primary doesn't answer any of the questions here.

Raptors are am interesting idea, but no way am I marking a sorcerer with Tzeentch. Those powers are terrible. A sorcerer with a jump Pack is an option. I'm not sure if losing a point of toughness and the ability to turboboost is worth it especially when nurgle Raptors are nearly the same cost as an unmarked bike. You also lose twinlinked bolters while still keeping two Meltaguns in the squad.

I'll play around with combining the two smaller squads in to a single larger squad and see which works better.

If you played daemons before then I think you should ease into csm by using predominately your familiar daemons while learning csm by allying a small amount. This also lets you learn how to use both at the same time in the future by developing synergies now.

The whole point of the raptors where so that they were unmarked ablative wounds. So you can afford the disc of tzeentch. Also I think its a waste to have mastery lvl3 on a burning brand sorc. You only get 1 shooting so you cant shoot bbs and psychic shots. You can cheap out by just getting sorc, MoT, disc, bbs, no additional mastery.

Sure bikes can turbo boost but they have to go around the terrain where raptors can jump over it. They can even jump over enemies and your units.

I think Lord with MoN, power fist and lightning claw would be better on a bike if you give the bikers MoN aswell. It would be a very tough unit. Its also been done many times so that must mean it works.

Daemons have been my primary army since near the end of 5th edition, and I have used CSM as allies and occasionally as primary enough to have a decent idea of how they work. A Tzeentch black mace prince, cultists, a Heldrake and occasionally a maulerfiends are my usual allied detachment. With the release of Be'Lakor he has usually replaced the mace prince. However, now I'm looking to run CSM as primary or by themselves. Of course when I try to create daemons as allies I always ask myself why aren't they primary? I'm just looking to switch things up and give me motivation to paint up my CSM collection.

I do really like the idea of planting him in a unit of raptors. I love the models and jump infantry is solid. While I do like to give him the brand to give him some shooting punch, his primary role will be to buff the army through biomancy or telepathy. Hence, ML3 and no mark. Endurance on T6 bikers is sick and it would also be a huge boon to protect the juggerlord and spawn from the threat of instant death while they act as offensive juggernauts. Iron arm and warp speed also greatly help the sorcerer become a close combat beast. Who doesn't love invisibility or hallucination?

So with that in mind, would you still recommend raptors over bikers? And how many would you run? I'm inclined to lean toward 10-15 if I went that route.

I haven't explored Black Legion at all. Is there anything in there worth me checking out? The extra force or slots would be great since all the best unit s are in fast attack.

stewy37 wrote:

I usually flat out turn one and pop smoke to get in position and plan on the rhinos dying.

I'm not sure but i think you can't use smoke and flatout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've run raptors in quite some games and can tell that they're worse than bikes in almost any situation. They cost roughly the same but are more fragile, not as fast, don't have jink, don't have relentless with tl bolters, don't have hammer of wrath attacks but can get deepstrike which is no use for mellee usually. Don't expect them to use jumppacks for HoW and fleet. Over the course of many games i've figured out a few ways of using them however.

- Meltadrop. Minsquad with 2 meltas and combi-melta on sarge. Do exactly the same thing as termicide but are less durable and less threatening in mellee, however are better at dealing with standalone vehicles that are far from the army, for example on the other flank of the castle. Just cause u're faster - you can get some use to them after kabooming a vehicle.
Not bad, on par with terminators but usually a bit worse.
- Moving behind transports and blos. Basically the same thing as bikers but are better if the vehicle gets stunned/immobilized/wrecked. And are better if the map has multi-store buildings so that they can jump on the roof and hide from los there. Pretty situational and in most situations worse than bikers. However, if you like custom maps with alot of ruins, trenches and multi-store buildings - they may see some use just cause bikers can't get above groudnd floor.
Not bad, worse than bikers but sometimes better on a variety of building-heavy maps.

That's not their fault that they're worse than identical options we have atm. It's "ballanced" 6 ed rules that made jump troops not worth taking when there are bikers. However, models are great and if u're not afraid to take not the most effective choices possible, they're fine.

 koooaei wrote:

stewy37 wrote:

I usually flat out turn one and pop smoke to get in position and plan on the rhinos dying.

I'm not sure but i think you can't use smoke and flatout.

Good catch. Not sure why I said that.

I've been talking with a buddy of mine and bouncing ideas off of him, and after coming to the conclusion that I'm going to lose the shooting war almost all the time with CSM, I should embrace my love for assault and use all of my favorite units to absolutely overload my opponent with more than he can deal with early on. Using daemon allies, here is what I will be playtesting this weekend. (Bonus: I already own all these models and only have to paint them). We'll see how it goes, but it looks like a blast to play!

CSM PRIMARY
HQ:
Chaos Sorcerer – ML3, Sigil of Corruption, Spell Familiar, Chaos Bike, Burning Brand of Skalathrax

Chaos Lord – Mark of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury, Juggernaut

TROOPS:
10 x CSM – Meltagun x 2, Meltabombs, Chaos Rhino, Dirge Caster

10 x CSM – Plasmagun x 2, Meltabombs, Chaos Rhino, Dirge Caster

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake – Hades Autocannon

5 x Chaos Spawn

7 x Chaos Bikers, Mark of Nurgle, 2 x Meltagun, Meltabombs

HEAVY SUPPORT
Maulerfiend – Magma Cutters

Maulerfiend – Lasher Tendrils

CHAOS DAEMONS ALLY
HQ:
Herald of Khorne – Juggernaut, Lesser Reward, Greater Reward, Exalted Locus of Wrath

TROOPS
13 x Daemonettes

FAST ATTACK
15 x Flesh Hounds of Khorne

How about this?
HQ-Huron = 160 160
T1-CSM x 10 CCW + MG x 2 + PF + Combi Flam + MB = 200 360
DT-Rhino + Dirge+Dozer+XA = 55 415
T2- CSM x 10 CCW + MG x 2 + PF+ Combi Flam + MB = 200 615
DT-Rhino + Dirge+Dozer+XA = 55 670
T3- CSM x 10 CCW + Flamer x 2 + PF + Combi Melta + MB = 190 860
T4-Cultists x 30 +Flamer x 3 = 145 1005
T5-Cultists x 10 + AutoRifle x 10=60 1065
T6- Cultists x 10 AutoRifle x 10=60 1125
F1-Turkey w/Baleflamer =170 1395
F2-Spawn x 5+MoN= 180 1475
H1-LR +Dirge+Dozer+XA=250 1725
H2-Maluer Fiend=125 1850

stewy37 wrote:


CSM PRIMARY
HQ:
Chaos Sorcerer – ML3, Sigil of Corruption, Spell Familiar, Chaos Bike, Burning Brand of Skalathrax

Chaos Lord – Mark of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury, Juggernaut

TROOPS:
10 x CSM – Meltagun x 2, Meltabombs, Chaos Rhino, Dirge Caster

10 x CSM – Plasmagun x 2, Meltabombs, Chaos Rhino, Dirge Caster

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake – Hades Autocannon

5 x Chaos Spawn

7 x Chaos Bikers, Mark of Nurgle, 2 x Meltagun, Meltabombs

HEAVY SUPPORT
Maulerfiend – Magma Cutters

Maulerfiend – Lasher Tendrils

CHAOS DAEMONS ALLY
HQ:
Herald of Khorne – Juggernaut, Lesser Reward, Greater Reward, Exalted Locus of Wrath

TROOPS
13 x Daemonettes

FAST ATTACK
15 x Flesh Hounds of Khorne

Good list actually! Though, i feel that 13 daemonettes are debatably few in numbers to be really threatening. U still need backfield pointholders actually. Maybe pink horrors? Or cheapo cultists.
Also i'd drop meltabombs on csm and take combi-weapons. Personally i prefer 2 plazma+combi-plazma or 2 plazma+combi-melta composition. After a nuber of games you might notice that you ain't using regular meltas on csm as often as u'd like. While plazma is usually helpful and working great. For vehicle wrecking you allready have Lord and maulerfiends. And geting in melta range = getting in mellee range. I keep combi-melta on champs just for a possibility to id t4 models and some rare possibility to open a landraider that's driving nearby.

I agree that 13 daemonettes is less than what I would like. I definitely prefer units of 15-20.

Points are at a premium so finding the points to add a few daemonettes as well as a couple of combi-weapons is tough.

Maybe I drop one spawn and the meltabombs, change the melta squad to plasma, and give the champs combi-meltas. Then if there are any points left add daemonettes.

I would love to fit in a couple more troop units, but again, I'm not sure where to get the points. I believe that with list I'm going to just have to use my threats to overload my opponent and destroy all his troops fast. Get in his face and make him have to focus on the big threats while ignoring my troops or die. I think it fits my style a little better. I like my troops to actually do something besides sit on an objective out of LOS and hope to not die. Minimum cultist squads die to a not so stiff breeze and large ones take casualties, fail morale, and run off the board.

I absolutely hate horrors. Unless it's a max unit with a herald giving their shots +1 str and divination I've never had them do anything but give the enemy FNP or get denied and waste all their shooting. In fact, in the year since the codex came out, I don't think I've ever had horrors successfully kill a unit unless accompanied by a herald.