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 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You do realize that there are large numbers of players who think the HH novel series is gak and don't read them, right?

Doesn't make it any less canon.

I don't own a SM codex, but SM are still T4.

+1. Gak or not, they are endorsed and licensed by GW and are considered canon.

Well to be fair black library isn't really known for consistency. You have a single squad of SMs killing htosands of DE single handedly in one book, and them dieing like chumps in another.

There is no canon.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There is no canon.

Someone get ADB in here quick.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There is no canon.

Didn't GW even say that the canon was whatever you want it to be or something along those lines?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I like to think that a C'tan ate one of the lost primarchs...

What. The C'tan are dead, all the rest were devoured by the final four, who were then shattered into pieces by the Necrons during the War in Heaven. Current C'tan shards, while powerful, can be put down by Space Marines.

Isn't that in the current year? The C'tan were still alive in whatever millenia the Pre-Heresy days were occurring, and since we don't even have a concrete timeline for anything after the primarchs were scattered, I think it's a fun possibility.

Have you even looked in the Necron Codex, as in ever? The C'tan were shattered sixty million years ago, plus. The Horus Heresy took place in 30,000 AD, looooooooooooooooooong after the War in Heaven.

There is officially no canon, but in practice, most Warhammer 40k writers/employees (be they BL, FFG, FW, or GW) at least try to stick to SOME bit of consistency.

So in practice it's mostly a canon with a "We reserve the right to retcon or ignore anything if we feel like it" disclaimer and a "If you don't like it, you're free to do whatever the hell you want for your own games and fanfics. We don't mind." disclaimer.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I like to think that a C'tan ate one of the lost primarchs...

What. The C'tan are dead, all the rest were devoured by the final four, who were then shattered into pieces by the Necrons during the War in Heaven. Current C'tan shards, while powerful, can be put down by Space Marines.

Isn't that in the current year? The C'tan were still alive in whatever millenia the Pre-Heresy days were occurring, and since we don't even have a concrete timeline for anything after the primarchs were scattered, I think it's a fun possibility.

Have you even looked in the Necron Codex, as in ever? The C'tan were shattered sixty million years ago, plus. The Horus Heresy took place in 30,000 AD, looooooooooooooooooong after the War in Heaven.

Nah, they're still alive. Ask the Emperor if you don't believe me.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I like to think that a C'tan ate one of the lost primarchs...

What. The C'tan are dead, all the rest were devoured by the final four, who were then shattered into pieces by the Necrons during the War in Heaven. Current C'tan shards, while powerful, can be put down by Space Marines.

Isn't that in the current year? The C'tan were still alive in whatever millenia the Pre-Heresy days were occurring, and since we don't even have a concrete timeline for anything after the primarchs were scattered, I think it's a fun possibility.

Have you even looked in the Necron Codex, as in ever? The C'tan were shattered sixty million years ago, plus. The Horus Heresy took place in 30,000 AD, looooooooooooooooooong after the War in Heaven.

Nah, they're still alive. Ask the Emperor if you don't believe me.

So I take it you're trolling? Because the rulebook itself disagrees with you.

Personally, given the tidbits of info scattered through-out the Heresy series, my theory is that one of the unknowns and his legion fell to uncontrollable mutation, and thus had to be put down by the wolves. I believe the second primarch and legion were more successful, but possibly due to the primarchs childhood, sympathized with xenos and refused to purge them out thought that mankind could share the galaxy. This would be shameful enough to be worthy of a purge and those that disagreed with the primarch were rolled into the ultramarine legion.

 Wyzilla wrote:
So I take it you're trolling? Because the rulebook itself disagrees with you.

I think he refers to the "hint" in Mechanicum that the Emperor, around the late first/early second millennium, engaged and subdued a C'tan (shard? If I may ask...), imprisoning it.

Having read all the HH books up to an including 'Shadows of Treachery', i think its heavily implied that 1 of the lost was 'purged' for want of a better word. Sanguinus's fear that his legions flaw would be discovered and the hints of SMs fighting SMs before prospero, being 2 of the main bits of 'evidence'.
The fate of the other is less clear, personally i think that 1 legion and primarch was sent beyond the bounds of the imperium for some reason, and its existence erased to protect it or so no one could follow.
The only hint i've found to support that, is when the role of each of the legions is discussed. One is described as being 'border protectors' (or something like that). Could easily be describing one of the 18 though, as i don't think all of their intended roles have been revealed.

That said, i don't think they will ever reveal the 'truth'. As someone said above, there is no way they could so they hype justice (though if GW thought there was enough money in it, that wouldn't stop them)

I have always thought that the 2 missing were there for people to create there own background. My knowledge on this only starts in '94 though.

The theory is that the Void Dragon, a C'tan with a thing for machines, is buried under the Noctis Labyrinth of Mars. This was pretty much confirmed in Mechanicum, which detailed the Changing of the Guard at said facility.

Whether or not the Void Dragon actually is a C'tan is the only remaining area of doubt. The theory that it is comes from older fluff - the Shroud Raid on Mars, and several pieces of Harlequin lore about the 'Four remaining C'tan'.

Of course, the Necron codex retconned the entire Old One / Necron war so that the C'tan were broken by the Necrons instead of the Eldar, so...

Based on whats been written in the HH books so far, I've always assumed that one of the lost primarchs was biology/apothicary focused, and his legion like the thousand sons suffered from very high rates of mutation that could not be controlled. That would lead to a purge, and a removal from history since the Emperor would have considered it a massive failure.

This is also the reason Magnus and Sanguinius are fearful of the mutations in their ranks, as they know that too much mutation led to the purge of their brother.

Of course, GW hates to nail down fluff. Having the 2 lost legions as complete unknowns is too good to ever fill in with a decision.

The lost and the purged.

Purged due to Heresy or purged due to mutation.

Lost as in literally lost in deep space, in the warp, lost to Chaos, lost in an accident.

There's a lot of crossover between the two words, the SW are hinted at having been the prosecutors the last time though. Perhaps that's why they had so few in their legion after causing the destruction of another.

I had always assumed once they retconned the Legions to be Chapters of today that the 2 missing ones just had defects that made them basically die in the test tube, basically. Failed experiments for whatever reason. I know there's supposedly some line hinting about the Wolves having been called upon to purge a legion once before but really that doesn't make sense. What could be worse than Heresy? The only possibility would be if the entire legion, Primarch included, was destroyed during the Heresy and were erased because there's no survivors to contradict "They never existed", but that's still a bit hard to swallow given that the Imperium pretends that the other traitor legions never existed either and purged most of their records, but still acknowledge that there were 20 Legions. So no, I think the 2 missing just never had legions created - their geneseed just wasn't usable (either it was just bad, or it was too unstable and caused mutations, or who knows) so their legions were scrapped entirely. That's the only logical reasoning why there would be no records - there was nothing to record other than "Legion XX's geneseed proved to be unstable and unsuitable for the creation process, so was aborted".

Originally I remember they were to let you make your own legion since there weren't chapters at the time, so the "lost" legions were there only for the player; wasn't the original "Valedictors" Legion from Andy Chambers way back when done like this and later retconned to being a founding chapter when they allowed for additional customization?

To answer the original question though I think they won't reveal it because they don't really know. They've never actually come up with a reason, so there is nothing to reveal, and even if they did it wouldn't live up to the hype.

 Exalted Pariah wrote:
Personally, given the tidbits of info scattered through-out the Heresy series, my theory is that one of the unknowns and his legion fell to uncontrollable mutation, and thus had to be put down by the wolves. I believe the second primarch and legion were more successful, but possibly due to the primarchs childhood, sympathized with xenos and refused to purge them out thought that mankind could share the galaxy. This would be shameful enough to be worthy of a purge and those that disagreed with the primarch were rolled into the ultramarine legion.

I'm totally with you on that one.

Considering all the primarchs are basically allegories for the different aspects of the Emperor and drawn from myths and legends-- mostly Greek/Roman stuff but there's some obvious other examples like the entire White Scars being the Monguls-- one of the primarchs being an extreme avatar of compassion and not wanting to exterminate Xenos in the name of Humanity fits the fluff rather well. I mean, we used to have half-elf psykers that worked for the Imperium back in 2nd Ed so there is precedence in the fluff for a Human/Eldar bridge.

The mutations thing also makes sense why Corvus Corax was driven mad enough to fly off into the Eye of Terror to seek pennance for the mutations he caused in his gene seed with his experiments to try and hasten the rebirth of his depleted legion.

Still, though, we know one of the primarchs willingly left the imperium because of the destruction of Prospero. You guys really should read this whole web series, btw. It's delightful.

WayneTheGame wrote:
...I know there's supposedly some line hinting about the Wolves having been called upon to purge a legion once before but really that doesn't make sense. What could be worse than Heresy?

Well there was no heresy before Horus', and Horus' rebellion was not called a Heresy until long after the Emperor's Ascension. So whatever they did that warranted a death sentence might have simply been "Primarch II stole the emperor's [MacGuffin Name] for [purposes] because [reasons] and therefore must be destroyed".
The reasons that traitor legions are not expunged from Imperial Record is because... well, they aren't destroyed, and the Emperor probably had not say in how the Imperium deal with records of the traitor legions since he's now comatose.
For all we know, Primarch II could have had planned a coup, and failed horribly because no one else answered him; and the other might have simply mutated beyond redemption.

I personally loved the idea in https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5100709/1/Return_of_the_Lost_Primarch.

Poor guy is going to be in a lot of shock once he makes it home.

 lcmiracle wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
...I know there's supposedly some line hinting about the Wolves having been called upon to purge a legion once before but really that doesn't make sense. What could be worse than Heresy?

Well there was no heresy before Horus', and Horus' rebellion was not called a Heresy until long after the Emperor's Ascension. So whatever they did that warranted a death sentence might have simply been "Primarch II stole the emperor's [MacGuffin Name] for [purposes] because [reasons] and therefore must be destroyed".
The reasons that traitor legions are not expunged from Imperial Record is because... well, they aren't destroyed, and the Emperor probably had not say in how the Imperium deal with records of the traitor legions since he's now comatose.
For all we know, Primarch II could have had planned a coup, and failed horribly because no one else answered him; and the other might have simply mutated beyond redemption.

This seems to be an iffy bit of fluff too. In Soul Hunter, the Rogue trader vessel that is attacked by the Covenant of Blood, says that the records of the ship have been removed from records. They seem to have no idea that Space Marines have turned against the Emperor. I think the official line is that they do not exist, unless it's frontier worlds like Cadia where it's impossible to deny that they exist. Perhaps in the same line as Chaos Daemons are denied to most of the masses.