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Made in gb
Waaagh! Warbiker





Hi there, lately I've been wondering about 40k and it's obvious balance issues. I was thinking whether it would need to be fully rebouted or just a format of game play which tends towards fun, balance and competitive rules, for example magic the gathering has multiple formats (I've only just got into magic so not too sure how it works just that there are multiple types) or warmhordes which has steamroller, which are set missions deployment and rules which are updated annually.

For example one rule set could be lock down ie no forge world no digital , no escalation, no allies just codexs, you could have no holed barge ie anything goes which isn't a house rule.

In addition to missions tailored to your type of game play you could have faq and rule fixes such as gimore of true names only increases the deamon save (only one model can gain the 2++ reroll then but is terrible if you tie him up in combat fatewaever) marker lights can reduce cover per marker stuff like that.
I think this is the right section as its not the rule themselves but whether we need thrm is the question

Plus it's fairly credible that a GW marketing campaign for their biggest release would fit on one side of A4 - Flashman  
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

Due to the nature of Codex writing and the rules themselves, a competitive, fair, and balanced tournament system could never be written for 40K unless it was a complete re-write of the rules. You may start with the base rule set, but you would have so many rules exceptions, addendum's, FAQ's, and errata that it would end up being a completely different game.

That's not to say the Steamroller Rules are perfect either. People seem to forget that they are a rules document that offers specific scenarios and restricts players choices in the name of tournament balance and fair play. Steamroller also favors a particular style of play as well as list building that is totally different from casual play.

The strength of the Warmachine and Hordes rule set is proven once again by the fact that there is a definite line between casual play and tournament play, and that with a solid, base rule set, you can write a very good competitive rules addendum for the system.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

In order to make 40K a streamlined, balanced ruleset that still allowed for variety and "flavor" between armies, you would have to recreate the ruleset from the ground up, to include moving off the venerable d6 to a d10 or d20.

This, of course, is never going to happen.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

I would say, no supplements, core rulebook only, to be fair to those of us who use ally heavy armies. Oh! and rules as intended. It will not be completely balanced, but better than most systems using the rules as they are. We have to be realistic, warmachine/horde rules are more flexible (In a good way!) warhammer cant have a perfect set up, but quick turns and an anti-spam rule i.e. no more than two squads of any non-troop unit could be better than most.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/27 23:56:53


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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

... which is immediately unfair to those who want to ally some of those armies that are only found in supplements.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





And then I'd say "everyone is allies of convenience with everything" to be fair to those of us who can't or don't want to take advantage of allied shenanigans.

And then I'd ask "why 1850? that benefits armies X Y and Z, but my Orks prefer lower points or double force" and then demand 2000 double force as the standard.

And so on and so forth. Total agreement with Psienesis here, in that the game needs to be made from the ground up to be a good competitive game. Until that happens I'll play other games competitively and 40k just for fun

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/28 00:00:43


 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

 Psienesis wrote:
... which is immediately unfair to those who want to ally some of those armies that are only found in supplements.


I agree, it is not perfect, but it should please the most people. I'm not ever sure about the anti spam rule

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/28 00:13:09


"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."

"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

I don't think that would be the case, since what is currently considered to be the most-broken of combinations is done with two standard-Codex armies.

All such a rule would really do is really gimp a number of builds that are somewhat competitive against the Taudar, being that common sentiment holds them to be the most-broken of broken codices.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

I am well aware, but would you rather have taudar, or taudar and super heavies, farsight riptide spam, and 6++ demons?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/28 00:18:56


"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."

"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

If Taudar have Super-heavies, then I can bring my own Super-Heavies to at least shoot back at them with, rather than having to drive/walk up the table and get shot to pieces in doing so and arrive to fighting range with them with 4 models and 1 Rhino left.

Daemons with 6++ don't really bother me. They're Daemons, they shouldn't worry about a lot of things that are a plague to living creatures, like bullets to the face.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

But what about players who don't have their own super heavies then? Your argument appears to be,"If there is one game breaker, just add more!" I simply said cut the losses at the one we can't really ban.

"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."

"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Because the TauDar don't need Super-Heavies to be the Taudar builds.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

And do any of the other non-super heavy broken builds? ',:-)

"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."

"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

By the definition you just provided, of course not... but that's like asking if something that doesn't have green have green in it.

Removing super-heavies, though, limits the ways in which people can handle the top-builds of the current edition, unless you want to change it to TauDar 40,000... And Some Other Armies, Too, We Guess.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

So, according to you, Super heavies are the only way to beat an unbalanced army? Is 40k really that broken? ',:-)

"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."

"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Yes, desperately. I have played a variety of competitive games and none of them come close to the degree of imbalanced brokenness of 40k, and even those games have had banlists and restricted formats to limit the imbalance. Even a few changes like no D weapons, no 2+ reroll saves and Battles Brothers are treated as Allies of Convenience goes a long way towards making 40k resemble an actual competitive game.

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I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






Virginia, US

I forgot about the allies of convenience battle brothers thing, defiantly add that, allies of convenience is a much more balanced option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to the OP, sorry for arguing all over your thread...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/28 02:59:06


"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."

"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

What 40K needs for a competition set of rules is a good FAQ to explain ambiguities and mistakes in the rules, plus a set of exclusions.

The codexes are never going to be finely balanced, however most of the major imbalance problems can be eliminated by ruling out Allies and Escalation (and possibly Fliers).

This can be done easily by any T.O. for their event.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As other posters stated, you probably won't be able to obtain perfect balance but certain stopgap measures would definitely help the situation.

The aforementioned allies are allies of convenience rule is a good start. Puts everyone on the same footing (poor Tyranids) allies wise while simultaneously eliminated exploitative combos.

The other thing I would suggest is eliminating the rerollable saving throw shenanigans with three rules: failed inv saves can never be rerolled (if an opponents beats both your armor and cover he shouldn't have to still deal with another save that can be rerolled), inv saves always fail on a 1 and a 2, and when saves are rerolled, that reroll always fails on a 1-3.

Caution should also be exercised regarding superheavies and D strength weapons, but the above to rules I feel would be fair to everyone while reigning the worse abuses in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/28 04:45:20


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




West Browmich/Walsall West Midlands

Phanixis wrote:
As other posters stated, you probably won't be able to obtain perfect balance but certain stopgap measures would definitely help the situation.

The aforementioned allies are allies of convenience rule is a good start. Puts everyone on the same footing (poor Tyranids) allies wise while simultaneously eliminated exploitative combos.

The other thing I would suggest is eliminating the rerollable saving throw shenanigans with three rules: failed inv saves can never be rerolled (if an opponents beats both your armor and cover he shouldn't have to still deal with another save that can be rerolled), inv saves always fail on a 1 and a 2, and when saves are rerolled, that reroll always fails on a 1-3.

Caution should also be exercised regarding superheavies and D strength weapons, but the above to rules I feel would be fair to everyone while reigning the worse abuses in.


exactly.

However it depends upon the TO etc. Writing a rules pack is where the real work starts, allies need to be taken down a few notches to cover the inherent 'abuse' that will undoubtedly take place. If we are assuming a "base" 40k tourney (no stronghold or escalation) then the alles chart needs a nerfbat swinging at it, Taudar i suspect would either have to be banned totally , gets less VPs or less points to work with. That issue alone will take ages to deal with to any degree of satisfaction in whatever from.

Personally it depends on how far you want to go, if you felt really evil then you could ban allies altogether and go down the route of its either the main codex or suppliment codex and thats it., no ally shenanigins.

The anti spam rule?, sorry but thats a lazy way out.

Take the Eldar for example, yes you could put a limit on wave serpents to about 4 or so, thats plenty arguably (depending on points). But it does not hide that fact that if you read the codex and want to take a decent list then you are forced to take more than 2.

By that point you are straying into micromanaging each codex which is bound to fail on way or the other.

Those few examples show that it could be done given what we have got to work with but you would have to spend a lot of time writing out the restrictions.

Not to mention the tournamnet missions can also influence army choices, my group didn't attend one becasue the mission rules were silly. Basically for any decent chance you needed to batter your first opponent otherwise you would face an uphill struggle...

Just a few of my thoughts

A humble member of the Warlords Of Walsall.

Warmahordes:

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Khador: HERE'S BUTCHER!!!

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Kilkrazy wrote:
What 40K needs for a competition set of rules is a good FAQ to explain ambiguities and mistakes in the rules, plus a set of exclusions.


I don't think you're ever going to have a good FAQ like that because the rules just don't support it. You can special-case rule everything but because the rules were never designed to be consistent or make sense you're going to be left with an awkward mess that probably generates as many issues as it fixes. Making a proper tournament 40k game would mean scrapping the entire existing game and starting over from scratch, with a deliberate emphasis on rule clarity and having consistent and well-understood design goals.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
I am well aware, but would you rather have taudar, or taudar and super heavies, farsight riptide spam, and 6++ demons?


Why is that even a question? Fix D-weapons and fix taudar/2++++++++/etc. Most superheavies aren't all that powerful and it would be possible to have a balanced game without banning them. That should be the goal of any competitive format, in a game where customizing your army is so important everything should be legal unless there is extremely convincing evidence that it needs to be banned. And we aren't even close to that point with non-titan superheavies. Same thing with Farsight/FW/etc, overall these things are just fine and the few major problems can be dealt with by carefully targeted changes instead of blanket bans on entire categories of rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/28 10:16:19


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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Peregrine wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
What 40K needs for a competition set of rules is a good FAQ to explain ambiguities and mistakes in the rules, plus a set of exclusions.


I don't think you're ever going to have a good FAQ like that because the rules just don't support it.
...
...


The INAT FAQ for 5th edition was good and achieved wide acceptance. The fact it has been done once proves it is possible.

Whether the people who did it want to put in all the effort all over again for a new edition that may only last one more year, is another matter.

40K is never going to be a tight set of competition wargame rules like WRG Ancients or FoG, and there isn't any point trying to make it into one. There is too much variation in all the codexes. GW are not going to rewrite the entire system from the ground up.

The reasonable option is to apply some patches to the worst parts of the rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/28 10:24:38


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Medrengard

Wouldn't mind a single rulebook for the entire game and all races, and some rules put in place to prevent the dickery currently being used in today's games :p

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Kilkrazy wrote:
40K is never going to be a tight set of competition wargame rules like WRG Ancients or FoG, and there isn't any point trying to make it into one. There is too much variation in all the codexes. GW are not going to rewrite the entire system from the ground up.


The real question is: Why not?

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
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Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Roswell, GA

I think if they added a unit allowance like Warmhordes a lot of problems could be solved.
   
Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
And do any of the other non-super heavy broken builds? ',:-)


This is a loaded question, that's not okay in argument. Don't pull that gak dude.

 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, it would be great to have such a format. Steamroller increases also the quality of Warmahordes.

However, tying together the new releases of escalation, stronghold, and sub-escalation (i.e, Knights) with the ''standard'' game it was before into a tournament format would be not easy to achieve. I think that GW will not make efforts in this direction.

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