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So lets say I've got a big wall of Guardsmen armed with lasguns, meltabombs (on sgts), and special weapons (probably meltas and plasmas) in two blobs of 40, each led by an Inquisitor. These guys will put out a bunch of anti-infantry firepower, and some pretty respectable close-range anti-tank. They'll also claim objectives and block off movement lanes. I need some supporting units. A CCS is required. It will probably be in a Chimera for protection and to better hand out orders. The two required PCSs are probably reserved off board for kill points missions, maybe the CCS also. Together, these are a bit over 900 points, which leaves me a bit less than 850 points (total 1750) to make this army not terrible.

The whole point of the army is that it is tough. It should be full of units that can take hit from some prime-time killers and keep rolling. In my mind, that means more piles of guys, or Leman Russ hulls, or both. I obviously need some long-range AT, but some long range mid-strength dakka is probably also good. I am resigned to giving up some firepower for durability, but I do still need to kill stuff.

Candidates for Fire Support:

More infantry squads with Lascannons: The other guy has to eat through a bunch of Guardsmen to get to the heavy weapons, but the unit's not exactly amazing. A couple lascannon squads are only 140 points though, and they would make rear-objective holders that are more durable and dangerous than 5 man PCS squads.

5-man stormtrooper squad with Meltaguns, maybe boost them up from 5-man to really let them contest a rear objective. The prevalence of Interceptor really sucks for these guys, though.

Aegis Defense Line: I'm the last Guard player who doesn't have one, so I'd need to buy it, but I ought to get around to it some time. The Quad gun would give nice firepower, and anti-air, and the barricades would help protect my stuff.

Leman Russ Vanquisher (hull Lascannon, sponson multi-meltas). It's sort of a mobile high S, low AP machine. Accuracy isn't great, but Prescience from Inquisitors can help.
Leman Russ Demolisher: Its a Demolisher, but I only have three HS choices.
Manticore: So much power for the points, but fragile. It could be reserved under certain scenarios to save it from giving up First Blood.
Leman Russ Exterminator with all Heavy Bolters: Lots of dakka at good range, and not too expensive. TL Exterminator Autocannons make for poor-man's anti-air.

I can really put together two of any type of Leman Russ, and I have a single Manticore. I have no Vendetta/Valkyries, unfortunately.

Any ideas?

I occasionally play a fun style list like this with infantry blobs. For russes I like as my primary the vanquisher with a hull lascannon and sponsons MM's or plasma cannons. Either route you have lots of high strength low ap, MM's are more dedicated anti-tank the plasma allows you to at least put wounds on hordes if you truly have no other armor to fire at.

I also like using the eradicator with heavy bolters all around to put wounds on horde and kill units in cover.

Executioner is another great tank with LC/ PC, really great fire support .

Punisher is nice with heavy bolters around but since you got lots of guardsmen I will recommend going the expensive route and popping on LC/MM's so it has a duel role and will be able to take on just about anything that comes your way.

Ugh, this list is so unfun to play against. Takes way too long for FRFSRF with the Div re rolls. I think we calculated it is the same as rolling 400 dice or something ridiculous.

Anyway, I vote Manticore. For extra nastiness, scratch build the Void Shield Relay. That will protect the Manti and the horde.

Cheers.

... it depends on what kind of support units you're looking for. There's a lot of talk, but not a lot of clarity on this subject.

The best I can tell is the "doesn't die", with a bias towards anti-tank, which means that you want vanquishers. You get 2 hits per turn with good weapons (and, as you mention, can be prescienced for 3 hits per turn). Once you invest in a few, you might consider pask. Him in a lascannon/plasma cannon vanquisher can put down stupid amounts of hurt.

Hmm. Looking like the Vanquiser w/ MM sponsons is what I'll try first. I'm not too worried about any type of infantry with the massed lasfire I've got, so I think the Punisher and Eradicator are out. Maybe two Vanqs and a Mantincore or two Vanqs and a Demolisher. I'll have to try this out.

Some stupid part of me wants to put two Vanquishers in a squadron, just to roll 8 dice that are all S8 AP2 or better.

If you want to go with a Vanquisher, either give it Pask or use an Armoured Battlegroup detachment for the Company Command tank with a co-axial gun. Otherwise, I think you'll find yourself often disappointed by your Vanquisher's lack of accuracy.

 tybg wrote:
If you want to go with a Vanquisher, either give it Pask or use an Armoured Battlegroup detachment for the Company Command tank with a co-axial gun. Otherwise, I think you'll find yourself often disappointed by your Vanquisher's lack of accuracy.

I agree with this. A regular Vanquisher isn't as good at anti-tank as you'd think. Vendettas are even better at anti-tank, and give you a flying transport to boot.

Also, you make a point that you won't have to worry about massed infantry because of "all the las fire you've got". I ensure you massed lasfire won't do much of anything to real units. You're going to want some large blasts in your list to kill hard targets. IG Artillery for anti-infantry, Vendettas for anti-tank. That's where you'll find your best options. IG troops gunfire is just there to support your heavy hitters.

Well, you mentioned lascanon HWS. I know, I know, the internet says "NOT VEDETTAS?!?!? GARBAGE!!!!!" but though practical experience I've found that lasconon HWS, especially when supported by orders, can be quite killy. To increase their longevity, put them in a Chimera, all 3 in a single HWS can fire out of it.

I've played such type of a list. I've taken Tigurius, scouts and tfc. Though, i used 1*50 guardsmen and 1*50 conscripts with comissar. They're awesome at close quarters both with shooting and mellee. But as u've noticed, they need ranged heavy support and can-openers. The best things i've found are a couple of vendettas, melta-drop stormtroopers [4 troopers with 2 meltas, sarge with plazma pistol - not mandatory though, but i've fould it useful] and Marbo. Those work great but you'll need to protect your ccs with astropath till turn 2 cause all that firepower comes out from reserves. Leman russes work not bad also but not as good as things listed above.

Tigurius is vital for a platoon to get 4++ or fnp+relentless. Or both.

maceria wrote:
Well, you mentioned lascanon HWS. I know, I know, the internet says "NOT VEDETTAS?!?!? GARBAGE!!!!!" but though practical experience I've found that lasconon HWS, especially when supported by orders, can be quite killy. To increase their longevity, put them in a Chimera, all 3 in a single HWS can fire out of it.

The issues being:
-HWS have low leadership with which to receive orders
-HWS would have to hijack another squad's transport
-HWS can't receive orders inside said transport

Like you yourself mentioned,, Vendettas are a superior Lascannon platform, but obviously if you need some more lascannons after taking Vendettas (or if your flyer- I mean Fast attack slots are full) HWS are a cheap way to do it.

I do, however, prefer a blob of 40 Infantry with Plasma AND Lascannons. Stick an inquisitor in there and they can take Prescience (far more reliable than orders) and dish out 4-12 High Strength AP2 shots depending on range, with plenty of extra wounds to protect those expensive weapons.

-TheCaptain

There are quite a few good options for adding killing power here.

I'll second/third the LC/PC Vanquisher, they're probably my favourite Russ variant from a pure killing power standpoint.

With artillery, I'd say it's a toss up between a Manticore (3-12 blasts, higher S) versus a pair of Griffons (2 Large Blasts guaranteed per turn, still wounds most infantry on 2s, worse against vehicles but more reliable at anti-infantry). Either are solid choices.

Vendettas obviously add a lot, and you can increase this killing power by throwing in a vet squad loaded up in plasma/melta to drop later.

HWTs in platoon infantry squads is a fairly good option, although it can impede the mobility of the blob. Better than running them separately, though, as you get more ablative wounds and better LD, as well as more benefit from orders.

 Paradigm wrote:

Vendettas obviously add a lot, and you can increase this killing power by throwing in a vet squad loaded up in plasma/melta to drop later.

I'd say if you're running 2 blobs, put the PCS inside the vendettas instead of taking vets. Since you are taking the CCS anyway the PCS aren't needed for orders and you're (OP) currently talking about hiding them in reserve. Why not go with 4 flamers or 4 meltas and stick them in the vendettas instead. They are scoring and can be dropped out of LOS on the last turn to score if need be (or if things are getting tight you can have them jump out of the vendetta and try to blow something up).

Depends on how much you want to skimp on points though.

Also remember that HWT can stand still and you can konga line your blob forwards if necessary (although you have to be careful about mobile enemies making the HWT the closest targets for nukage.

wtnind wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Vendettas obviously add a lot, and you can increase this killing power by throwing in a vet squad loaded up in plasma/melta to drop later.

I'd say if you're running 2 blobs, put the PCS inside the vendettas instead of taking vets. Since you are taking the CCS anyway the PCS aren't needed for orders and you're (OP) currently talking about hiding them in reserve. Why not go with 4 flamers or 4 meltas and stick them in the vendettas instead. They are scoring and can be dropped out of LOS on the last turn to score if need be (or if things are getting tight you can have them jump out of the vendetta and try to blow something up).

This is definitely the preferrable way to make your PCS actually useful. IMO, PCS's should always fly, because any other role you put them in is just going to have them perform at a "meh" level.

Paradigm wrote:

With artillery, I'd say it's a toss up between a Manticore (3-12 blasts, higher S) versus a pair of Griffons (2 Large Blasts guaranteed per turn, still wounds most infantry on 2s, worse against vehicles but more reliable at anti-infantry). Either are solid choices.

As a counterpoint to the Griffon, though it's accurate, it's wounding-capabilities are relegated pretty much to massed infantry with armor below MEQ out in the open. A very niche target that you aren't likely to see, what with the abundance of cover. Colossi, however, cost about the same as two griffons, include the wounding on 2's against t4 and below, as well as Ignoring cover (which is huge in todays meta) and ignoring all common infantry Armor-saves. You sacrifice a little accuracy to gain a huge boost in damage with the Colossus.

I've been putting off buying and converting a Vendetta for years, mostly due to time and money constraints. But, man, I am just so sick of stupid PCSs sitting around that I am so close to carving out some time to make it happen. I hate to do it so close to the release of a new Guard codex, though, just in case it gets really screwed.

I think one of the blobs will definitely be a 4 plas/4 lascannon group. I do really love Guard artillery, but for this particular list, I'm worried about it dying too quickly. The whole point is to try to make an army that won't be significantly degraded by a first turn alpha strike. Is this even a worthwhile goal? I've never tried it, and I'm really just curious more than anything.

If you're looking for a way to make foot PCS work, then 4x flamers is an amazing deterrent and counter-attack unit. Shove them behind your platoon to throw around orders, and whatever breaks through the lines will have to eat 4 templates, enough to put the hurt on almost anything. As a cheap but dangerous unit, they are exceptional. They probably won't put people off charging, but they'll damn sure make sure they pay for it.

In terms of first-turn survival, here are a couple of tips:

Firstly, you might be better off reserving anything that you don't need on the first turn. If you have a unit that is regularly taken out on turn 1, try holding it back. You'll lose some firepower and movement, but it is basically indestructible until you bring it on. Throw in an Astropath to ensure your reserves come in.

Secondly, an ADL can do wonders if you don't already have one. Against anything that doesn't ignore cover, it ups your survivability by up to 50%.

My current non-Vendetta plan is to reserve a squad exactly as you suggest. My other crazy idea is to throw in a Mortar team in there (instead of two flamers) and hunker down. The thing is, I've tried hiding them before, but they still just get blasted.

What I wouldn't give for PCSs to be part of blobs.

Biophysical wrote:
So lets say I've got a big wall of Guardsmen armed with lasguns, meltabombs (on sgts), and special weapons (probably meltas and plasmas) in two blobs of 40, each led by an Inquisitor. These guys will put out a bunch of anti-infantry firepower, and some pretty respectable close-range anti-tank. They'll also claim objectives and block off movement lanes. I need some supporting units. A CCS is required. It will probably be in a Chimera for protection and to better hand out orders. The two required PCSs are probably reserved off board for kill points missions, maybe the CCS also. Together, these are a bit over 900 points, which leaves me a bit less than 850 points (total 1750) to make this army not terrible.

The whole point of the army is that it is tough. It should be full of units that can take hit from some prime-time killers and keep rolling. In my mind, that means more piles of guys, or Leman Russ hulls, or both. I obviously need some long-range AT, but some long range mid-strength dakka is probably also good. I am resigned to giving up some firepower for durability, but I do still need to kill stuff.

Candidates for Fire Support:

More infantry squads with Lascannons: The other guy has to eat through a bunch of Guardsmen to get to the heavy weapons, but the unit's not exactly amazing. A couple lascannon squads are only 140 points though, and they would make rear-objective holders that are more durable and dangerous than 5 man PCS squads.

5-man stormtrooper squad with Meltaguns, maybe boost them up from 5-man to really let them contest a rear objective. The prevalence of Interceptor really sucks for these guys, though.

Aegis Defense Line: I'm the last Guard player who doesn't have one, so I'd need to buy it, but I ought to get around to it some time. The Quad gun would give nice firepower, and anti-air, and the barricades would help protect my stuff.

Leman Russ Vanquisher (hull Lascannon, sponson multi-meltas). It's sort of a mobile high S, low AP machine. Accuracy isn't great, but Prescience from Inquisitors can help.
Leman Russ Demolisher: Its a Demolisher, but I only have three HS choices.
Manticore: So much power for the points, but fragile. It could be reserved under certain scenarios to save it from giving up First Blood.
Leman Russ Exterminator with all Heavy Bolters: Lots of dakka at good range, and not too expensive. TL Exterminator Autocannons make for poor-man's anti-air.

I can really put together two of any type of Leman Russ, and I have a single Manticore. I have no Vendetta/Valkyries, unfortunately.

Any ideas?

so funny this came up. The list Im working on is two blobs, inquisitor coteaz and stuff.

The Manticore made my list, so did the Exterminator. Power axes and melta bombs on the sgt's, a commissar in one blob (since Coteaz takes care of that duty in the other). I placed power fists on my commissars.

for Platoon commands I did melta guns. For the command i did Creed in a Chimera. Marbo (of course, obviously and without question EVER) and then there's my pair of Vendetta who take care of bidness in the skies.

An altogether satisfying force. Got Lascannons in the IG squads so I can pop a can or two in the first rounds, stop the barrages.

Biophysical wrote:
I've been putting off buying and converting a Vendetta for years, mostly due to time and money constraints. But, man, I am just so sick of stupid PCSs sitting around that I am so close to carving out some time to make it happen. I hate to do it so close to the release of a new Guard codex, though, just in case it gets really screwed.

You won't regret it. I run a single blob, and my PCS runs a fireball build (4x Flamer). If, come turn 4, there is an enemy unit camping an objective, they drop off next to it and flame them off, then capture the objective turn 5. Alternatively, if there are no enemy units 4 flamers will be sufficient to wipe, or if there is an open objective backfield your foot-sloggers might not be able to get to, your Vendetta drops off this cheap, 50pt unit for an easy score. At the very least, these guys can consistently grab you a late-game linebreaker point.

I think one of the blobs will definitely be a 4 plas/4 lascannon group. I do really love Guard artillery, but for this particular list, I'm worried about it dying too quickly. The whole point is to try to make an army that won't be significantly degraded by a first turn alpha strike. Is this even a worthwhile goal? I've never tried it, and I'm really just curious more than anything.

I'd recommend how I run the 4Plas4Las blob, which is behind an Aegis with an attached Rune Priest. The RP gives the blob ATSKNF (meaning no more getting Sweeping Advanced) as well as a reliable source of twin linking against any target (better than Bring It Down, which restricts your target to vehicles). I recommend keeping your Command Squad nearby in a Camo-net Chimera behind the Aegis. 3+ Save on AV12 is very survivable, and with the CCS nearby, any time the Blob takes significant fire, they can just go to ground behind the Aegis for a 2+ cover save, and next turn have the CCS order "Get Back In The Fight" so the unit can behave as if they never went to ground in the first place.

Now, with your stationary shooting blob giving you valid reason to bring an Aegis, a camo-netted artillery vehicle will be very comfortable surviving enemy fire.

-Capt