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So, the situation. If you have ASF, you strike first, regardless of initiative. If you have ASF and your opponent also has ASF, the two attack each other at the same time, with neither party gaining the ability to reroll hits from this rule. However, if you have both ASF and ASL, the two cancel, neither applies, and you use the models initiative. BRB pg. 66

In summary:

ASF>Initiative OR (ASF+ASL)>ASL

So the situation:

A block of Dark Elf spearmen is being attacked by a block of High Elf Spearmen, and a Frostheart Phoenix. Both units of spearmen have ASF. The Dark Elves also have hatred (High Elves). The Phoenix bestows ASL on the Dark Elf spearmen, as well as -1S.

As I would take it, the Dark Elves would be reduced to going off of initiative. They will get to re-roll to-hit, but from their hatred (not from ASF). The High Elf spearmen maintain their ASF, and are attacking units that are not benefiting from ASF. As such, they would attack first and get to re-roll to-hits, based on initiative comparison.

Check yes/no?

You figure out what you have before you compare the 2 units fighting.

So if one has ASF and ASL while the other just has ASF, the unit with just ASF will go first and get a reroll while the other unit will go at initiative.


So yes you are correct. The High Elves will go first with rerolls because of ASF vs not ASF(if the enemy models have lower or equal initiative)

The Dark Elves will go at initiative with rerolls from Hatred.

Exactly right. The natural ASF and the ASL imposed upon the dark elves cancel out, so it was as if they had neither rule in the first place. Hence they strike at initiative.

The HE have ASF and their opponents do not (see above), hence they strike first and, as their Initiative is higher or equal to that of their opponent's, they get a re-roll.

The rule is technically ambiguous. However the most common sense reading is that ASL+ASF renders both rules inoperable, and you're just treated like a normal trooper fighting at initiative. You can't be affected by an additional application of either rule either, since you can't double-up on special rules.

Its not ambiguous at all. Its quite clear cut actually.

If you have both you treat it as having neither(but you do still have them for purposes of double stacking)

It's ambiguities because it's not defined what "cancels out" means. Does this mean the effects are canceled out but the rules are still present, or that the rules are removed from the model completely.

For example, HE white lions have the ASF rule, and carry great weapons, so they have ASF + ASL. If White lions fight DE Spearman 2 outcomes could happen:

1) ASF + ASL = both effects cancelled but rules still present. So ASF is still technically on White Lions, which would negate the spear men's ASF.
2) ASF + ASL = rules are removed. Spearmen would get ASF as normal.

Both are valid, because this hasn't been FAQ'd.

It doesn't remove the rules completely because it doesn't say that it does.

You just treat it as having neither rule for determining initiative order.

+1 for Grey templar

mrfantastical wrote:
It's ambiguities because it's not defined what "cancels out" means. Does this mean the effects are canceled out but the rules are still present, or that the rules are removed from the model completely.

For example, HE white lions have the ASF rule, and carry great weapons, so they have ASF + ASL. If White lions fight DE Spearman 2 outcomes could happen:

1) ASF + ASL = both effects cancelled but rules still present. So ASF is still technically on White Lions, which would negate the spear men's ASF.
2) ASF + ASL = rules are removed. Spearmen would get ASF as normal.

Both are valid, because this hasn't been FAQ'd.

With point 1) are you saying they strike at the same time?

No, he is saying you do not get the rerolls to-hit for having equal or ggreater init and having ASF

mrfantastical wrote:
It's ambiguities because it's not defined what "cancels out" means. Does this mean the effects are canceled out but the rules are still present, or that the rules are removed from the model completely.

For example, HE white lions have the ASF rule, and carry great weapons, so they have ASF + ASL. If White lions fight DE Spearman 2 outcomes could happen:

1) ASF + ASL = both effects cancelled but rules still present. So ASF is still technically on White Lions, which would negate the spear men's ASF.
2) ASF + ASL = rules are removed. Spearmen would get ASF as normal.

Both are valid, because this hasn't been FAQ'd.

Both are valid interpretations, but one is much more in keeping with the clear intention of the rule: that a unit with both ASF and ASL strikes at initiative order, as if it had neither rule. That they ALSO strike simultaneously with actual ASF troops (or deny them rerolls) is a strange operation that the authors quite clearly didn't intend, so we ought to prefer the other interpretation.

Essentially, we should use RAI as a tiebreaker in any circumstances where it seems to clearly support one interpretation over the other.

Either way its the usual GW thing of not using clear wording on rules.

HIWPI would be same as point 2. As in the model is too slowed down by wielding the great weapon that their natural skill is dulled.