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So my freinds and i are having a deathstar tourney.
theres about 6 people, including myself.
Blood angels (most likly 10 hammernators with curbolo and an hq)
Orks with choas or necrons (guy could feild either, royal court of doom or nobs)
Eldar (He doesnt have the models for a seer council, beast pack, and has only 1 far seer and 3 warlocks so dont really see much a threat coming from there)
IG (some blob)
Space wolves (whatever the typical deathstar is for them)
and me.

1500 points, must have at least a 500 point unit, including added hqs that cant leave once game has started. Deathstar is scoring

My problem is i only have 5 eldar jetbike psychic guys. (in any combo of farseers and warlocks) With no vect, so out goes seer star
No dark eldar so no beastpack

But i do have a TON of psychicers on foot.... so here we go.

UNCONVENTIONAL DEATH STAR ELDAR 1500
hq
eldrad (hoping for fortune) 205
5 spirit seers 350
10 warlocks (all of above join for the deathstar)

5 rangers
5 rangers
3 jetbikes

5 dark reapers, starshot, fastshot eml exarch 210
5 dark reapers, starshot, fastshot eml exarch 210

There you have it. Before you look away in disgust let me explain it.
4 runes of fate for a pretty good chance of fortune
20(!!) runes of battle powers, netting me on average 3 of each power with 2 extra.

4 units of pinning to take advantage of runes of battle terrify power
4 scoring units
2 anti whatever units

Now why the deathstar is actually a deathstar (besides the 900+ points invested) is because....
a) its faster than you would think. That many runes of battle (r.o.b) powers mean i should have around 3 quickens, making my average run move around 13 inches.
b) Is nasty in combat. with that many rob powers, i should have a few jinx powers, a few strength de buffs (because whichblades already wound on 2s) a few initative and ws de buffs, and fortune, doom, preseince, and any combonation of them. This means that I hit on 3s, wound on 2s, the opponent has to take saving throws at -2 or 3 armor. And then if the opponent strikes back he will generally hit on 5s, wound on 3s or 2s (but not double out my spirit seers with s6 or up), and then i get a 4+ (generally re rollable) invo save. And sense i should win combat, even if i only kill one extra guy, with all of the - leaderships and iniatives going on, it will be EXTREMELY easy to catch them running and wipe there would be deathstar.

Yes its unconventional, but how do you think it would do, and what obvious changes need to be made?

It's not an Eldar deathstar if you don't have the baron from DE

LinkXx wrote:
It's not an Eldar deathstar if you don't have the baron from DE

Meh, i can see his benifits for seer star and beast pack, but there isnt much he gives to this one.

grenades, hit and run, stealth AND a 2++ with re-roll to boot is nice for ANY deathstar that can take him.

Yeah the baron seems an auto include here. You have no AT or AA. Your Deathstar is pretty slow has a very small threat range and can be torrented down really easily. Heck with all the buffs up a couple of units of broadsides would take that Deathstar off in a turn. Serpent Spam likewise.

The reason the Jetseer council works is the 2+ rerollable armour plus the 2++ provided by the Baron and the speed to track down vehicles. Then people support it with AT/AA in the form of Serpents.

- Deathstar Fueganwall -

HQ: Fuegan 220
HQ: 5 Spiritseers, Spear of Teuthlas 365
Troop: 7 Wraithguard, D-scythes 294

Troop: 2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken Cannon 122
FA: 2x 7 Warp Spiders 266
HS: Wraithknight, 240

This should mess up a few deathstars. Quicken/Renewer/Battle Focus on your WG makes this very good. Discounting how good RoB can be is a mistake, imho. It can be very effective in the right list.

You have exactly 3 troops and only 1 troop that can take objectives safely that aren't squarely in your deployment zone. That is simply to easy to shoot down, I am sensing the army that wins this will be the army that spends the LEAST on it's deathstar rather then the most. For example if that Chaos brings a Heldrake there is nothing you could do while he roasts one of those Dark Reaper units a turn, no saves and wound on 2's. Another example is that the necron disco inferno is very cheap and will likely only max out at 500pts, while it can very effectively teleport up to those reapers or rangers and shoot them down while avoiding the deathstar.

5 Spiritseers serves no purpose, why on earth would you need that many rolls on runes of Battle while leaving getting Fortune totally up to luck? It's not even like they are even good in combat! The kind of deathstar that i would suggest that could win this game are the cheap, 500pts units that are also very fast. Good examples are the beastpack or if you want to be a special snowflake then try a shining spear star with 8 shining spears plus exarch with Star Lance with a Shardseer and the Baron. Cheap, fearless, very killy for anything lower then a 2+ and extremely mobile with Hit'n'run and Jetbike movement. Your deathstar is to easy to menouver around and will likely not have a huge effect on a good player who knows how to use positional dominance.

I feel this RoB-stacking does not work as you might imagine.

@suite,

It does.

It is far from cut and dry on whether Runes of Battle stack (they have no permission to but people assume that permission to cast is permission to stack, whilst others believe you need express permission to cast and that when GW said different powers stack they meant that) The Horror being the only power that there's a strong argument for stacking. However lets assume in his group they've house ruled that they stack. Still no way I can see this list working in a competitive setting, but in this little comp against what appears to be a bunch of very uncompetitive lists it might do enough.

The raw issue with the list remains. No AT/AA and no way to deal with 2+ saves. So good luck.

dont put the baron in put the Deathspectre phoenix lord in...
he provides h&r, and a bunch of other good rules

Definitely invest into Irylith. He'd bring so much into your deathstar, it's noy even funny.

If he can roll enough +3" running then maneuvering shouldn't be an issue, as for 2+ As hope for jinx (with that many rolls on RoB should get a few), Also if he take psychic shriek on a few of the SS then he has a huge chance of downing any unit in the shooting faze after he runs (it works well with terrify/horrify).

 Arbiter wrote:
If he can roll enough +3" running then maneuvering shouldn't be an issue, as for 2+ As hope for jinx (with that many rolls on RoB should get a few), Also if he take psychic shriek on a few of the SS then he has a huge chance of downing any unit in the shooting faze after he runs (it works well with terrify/horrify).

Well as stated +3 run doesn't stack and nor do jinx/protect. But ignoring that he needs to cast 5 Protects to get 2+ save which just isn't happening. Yes if he gets 2-3 of the run spell he can move a decent distance if he successfully casts them all (unlikely) and he gives up any chance to attack with the unit for that and he can't cast psychic shriek on a turn he runs it is a witchfire. His threat range is no greater than any other walking infantry squad with a 12" max range gun...

I just don't see how he can get value out if the unit.

If you haven't noticed (which I know you have) the people hes fighting really are not using very competitive lists, with that aside, whether RoB stack or not is up to who ever is running the mini tournament as it can go either way (because GW is that great at making rules).

Well RaI the stacking argument has no grounds and RaW no Rune other than the Horror stacks and at best The Horror is a could go either way power by RaW (no explicit permission to stack no clear denial).

Yeah I get he's planning to run this in uncompetitive play but if any of his opponents brings a competent list he's in trouble. For all we know his opponents could be getting solid advice that they actually follow and turn up with something decent.

What I don't understand is where this argument that it isn't stacking is coming from.

If the power says it gives +3 to run move, then each casting does so. In this case, the opposition must find where something is NOT allowed, as it is allowed in the power description.

You know what, nvm, let's all assume it stacks, since they'll obviously play like it does.

Firstly the rulebook repeatedly tells us that different powers stack this means either the sane power doesn't stack or GW are intentionally trying to mislead us.

But from a purely RaW perspective the power states this :"Whilst the power is in effect, models in the target unit..."

So you cast it once, twice, a thousand times the power is in effect and you get 3 additional inches on your run. The Horror is the only Rune of Battle that doesn't contain the whilst in effect wording hence there is debate on that power and that power alone with regard to RaW. But the RaI is abundantly clear so the argument is merely one of Semantics.

Not competitive? In this kind of meta those could be very effective and competitive lists that he has mentioned. A Massive Guard blob lead by a Rune Priest/Tigarius/Azreal/Ezikil and an Inquisitor with all the grenade trimmings would put up quite a fight vs this one. Even with fortune, 45 (not counting sergeants) FrfSrF'ing presciece'd lasguns will put a massive dent in this deathstar. A 4++ re-rollable is nothing to write home about when you have 90 shots coming at you out of rapid fire range (coming to around 8/9 wounds after re-rolls) and 145 shots in rapid fire range including sergeants (coming to around 13/14 wounds after re-rolls) and god help your soul if the Inquisitor has that piece of wargear that makes his unit Bs 10 vs a unit with a psyker in, then you should simply remove the unit. The hammanators 3++ which can't be jynx'ed should keep enough of them alive to hit back, squashing an Eldar with every failed save while tanking on Corbs 2+++. All that said it is a fool who disregards one of the Orks only viable lists in Nob Biker Star or underestimates the Necron Disco Inferno, both are far more mobile then this deathstar and will pick apart the support units.

As to if RoB stack I say it doesn't matter much anyhow, unless you get enough Protects to get you a reasonable save to Fortune you will go down as easy as a Fortuned Khymerae to massed fire. You lack reliable AI, any AA or enough combat punch to mess up an enemy deathstar which has a psyker in who will disregard 1/3 or 1/2 of all of those Warlocks powers. I would bring something like this

Deathstar. 505pts

Shardseer on Jetbike and Runes of Warding. 165pts.

Baron. 105pts

8 Shining Spears + Exarch with Star Lance and Disarming Strike. 245pts

Supporting units.

3 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons in a Venom with doubles cannons and nightshields. 121pts

5 Kabalites with Blaster in a Venom with double cannons. 125pts

2x3 Jetbikes. 51x2 = 102pts

3 Warwalkers with duel Bright Lances 210pts

3 Warwalkers with Scatter Lasers/Star cannons. 210pts

Void Raven with Flickerfields with 2 Implosion Missiles. 215pts

Total 1498pts. Deathstar is fast enough to chose only the Targets it can kill (Anything lower then T 8 with a 3+ save or worse, although shuri shots do pull a number of 2+) while the shooty elements are threatening enough to take some attention and can handle most things (AI, AT, AA). Special mention goes to the Void Raven which will be incredibly deadly with it's implosion missiles, these groovy pieces of kit are small blasts that instead of *wounding you* they force you to take a test on your wound profile (I.E I wound models are killed on a 2+, 2 Wounds on a 3+, 3 Wounds on a 4+) or suffer an AP 2 wound with instant death. Yes, this OBLITERATES most kinds of Deathstars. Not saying you should take this list due to you might not have the models, but his is what I would imagine a balanced deathstar list would look like at this point level.

Alex

Let me just start fromn the top.
Did anyone read the whole post???
#1 i dont have any dark eldar models.
#2 I dont have enough bikes for any deathstar envolving bikes.
#3 Everyone (expect the ork/choas player) is new and wont be asking for advise on there list everywhere, and dont expect to have any trouble vs them. Althouhg your point on the helldrake was good.
#4 We play RoB stacks. I see the argument where it doesnt, but they let me anyways.
#5 That Fuegan Deathstar looks intersting
#6 If i roll protect/jinx, i dont use protect. I use jix, making them MUCH easier to kill. They actually are quite nasty in combat.
#7 they are quick and do have a large footprint, again because we play RoB stacks.
#8 Eldrad is just a bonus. If i get fortune, I am Greatly happy. If i dont, oh well.

Is there any advise now?

I did read your list, I would thank you to extend the same courtesy when I typed

Not saying you should take this list due to you might not have the models, but his is what I would imagine a balanced deathstar list would look like at this point level.

If you are intent on running this deathstar, then I will stop posting alternatives and focus on the tactics WITH this deathstar. Your first problem is weight of fire, your deathstar is 20 wounds with a 4++, with fortune equivalent to a 3++. The problem is the diminishing returns when models start to drop. Against armies such as Orks, IG and some Eldar or Necron lists they can force a LOT of saves a turn on this very expensive unit to which your counter is .......? Using terrain to your advantage doesn't count because you might not get any LOS blocking terrain that you didn't bring with you.

To counter this I would suggest dropping 2 spirit seers as well as the rangers and instead use 2 big guardian units with bright lances. These give you the option that if you don't think your death star needs the extra models (say against Necron disco Inferno) then you can drop off two warlocks into these units at the start of each game. The extra AV will be helpful and those rending shots will help pull up some weight in intantry vs infantry fights if you roll Protect to rock a 4+ save vs bolters or take conceal and camp in cover. I would then drop one of the Dark Reaper squads to get yourself Aegis defence line with a Icarus Lascannon to net yourself ALL the AA you could ever need while the extra points could go into a Nightweaver who's Pinning is very helpful to you as well as granting some powerful Anti infantry.

There, is that more helpful?

Well if you had read all my post I said I had no dark eldar, and you had some in that list. Yes that advise is better, and if you can come up with a better death star that I can use, go for it. Like the guardian blob also because if I get lucky with protect that's one nasty unit.

First off - shadow council has telepathy. Let me repeat that - Telepathy. So with ten rolls expect to get invisibility at least. Once you have that roll for something else. I tried to get this conversation started in tactics. Telepathy is very very good. You don;t have to roll all RoB.

The question only is where you want the council to go. What squad do you want to use with it. Now DE would have been nice ( incubi or grots) but that is not an option for the OP. On thedarkcity.net we developed a DelDar with the shadow council which is pretty mean ( dual deathstar w/ beastpack and shadow council incubi).

The only reason we do not see the shadow council is because the seer council is the go to deathstar. And I cannot argue its effectiveness. That does not mean the shadow council cannot compete. I've seen Fuegan wall in action. It is pretty damn mean.