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yep, the gun emplacement specifically calls itself a model, more specific then the general rule you keep quoting.

it's your false dichotomy, house rule it any way you want. read the first rule again, then find the rule that declares anything to not be models anymore. or at the very least read all of pg 2 & 3 to see all the other things models are supposed to have yet vehicles don't. be consistent at least.

vehicles, buildings, and infantry are models, what you don't have is any denial to stop them from being models within the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and you have to shoot at enemy units, not just models,[snip]?

sirlynchmob wrote:
yep, the gun emplacement specifically calls itself a model, more specific then the general rule you keep quoting.

I'd like a page number for this very specific rule please.

"In addition to it's characteristic profile, each model will have a unit type..."
Again here is the rule you ignore. You're saying this rule is completly meaningless as every single miniature made by citadel is a model (including the tabletop). So we can ignore it completely, correct?

it's your false dichotomy, house rule it any way you want. read the first rule again, then find the rule that declares anything to not be models anymore. or at the very least read all of pg 2 & 3 to see all the other things models are supposed to have yet vehicles don't. be consistent at least.

I've consistantly shown a rule stating a model needs a unit type. Ignore it all you want. Ignoring rules is your house rule, not mine.
Models have a Characteristic Profile and Unit Type. You're now saying they must have more? What other things is a model suppose to have? Page number for these new requirements please.

vehicles, buildings, and infantry are models, what you don't have is any denial to stop them from being models within the rules.

Buildings are not models, they lack a Unit Type.

and you have to shoot at enemy units, not just models, have you read the rules?

Friendly models can be hit. Yes I've read them (I'll ignore that particular insult). If it's a model, then any scattering blast can hit it.

pg 105, rule 1 says yes, it's already a model. Is ignoring the unit part any worse than say, requiring a to hit roll for a psychic shooting attack, then still applying the results if you miss? or just not even rolling?

buildings are models and with strong hold assault "they function like any other unit in a players army"
so a building functions like a unit, and is a model.

do you have the rule that says "is no longer considered a model" yet?

If you want to go with "not a model" for the quad gun then you can not wound it. you can shoot at them, but when it comes to saves and wounds you can't do it. does the quad gun get a save? models get saves. do you remove it when it gets to zero wounds like it says you do with models? can you even allocate wounds in cc to the quad gun? those get allocated to even more specifically to enemy models. There is definitely no case to be made for gun emplacements to be friendly or enemy, like buildings are.

how does this not a model thing even work with the rest of the rules for shooting and assaulting?

and you're right, that was rude off me, my apologies, I'll edit it out.

Gun Emplacements have rules stating you can shoot and assault them. Same with buildings. Why is that rule needed if it's already a model?

And a rule stating each model must have a unit type, if everything is already a model?

Even if you don't believe a Unit Type is needed, you have said a Profile is.
You've also stated a tree is a model. So where is the tree's profile to be found?

Because you shoot at enemy units, you assault enemy units. Not models.

That's why you get permission to shoot the quad gun. it's not an enemy unit and that's why you can't tank shock it either. after that you follow the normal shooting rules right?

sirlynchmob wrote:
Because you shoot at enemy units, you assault enemy units. Not models.

If it's a model as you claim then it must also be a unit.
As models must be organised into units (see "Forming a Unit"). Every model is part of a unit. No exceptions.
It was purchased as part of your army, so by your definition I can treat it as an enemy unit. Correct?

That's why you get permission to shoot the quad gun. it's not an enemy unit and that's why you can't tank shock it either. after that you follow the normal shooting rules right?

If it's a model (and therefore a unit) then there is no restriction on being able to shoot and tank shock it. You bought it, it's part of your force, it's a model and unit. It's a perfectly legitamate enemy unit according to your definition. What rule now says I can't tank shock it?
It can also now grant first blood and no enemy can shot with it, as there is a restriction on moving within 1" of enemy models (note models, not units in this case).

After all there's no such thing as a "neutral model" unless you can provide a page?

quad gun: gun emplacement: battlefield debris

has rules that specifically allow it to be shot and assaulted.

has no unit type

please note that it NOT considered a model within the updated rules of Strong hold assault and is constantly referred to as a gun emplacement.

note that the designation as battlefield debris means that the emplacement is treated as terrain, as such it is not a 'model' by the definitions of the game.

note that vehicles are defined as models with characteristics and that the designation of 'vehicle' is the unit type. (p3 BRB)

p2 of the BRB gives us the framework to work with and specifies that 9 characteristics are used to attribute the characteristics of defined models, p2 then tells us how we handle modifiers and outlines what these characteristics represent.

p3 tells us that every model has an associated profile, it then gives us a comparison between an ork and a space marine.

it then tells us that in addition to a characteristic profile, the model will have a unit type. gives p44 as a reference and points out vehicles are a law unto themselves.

what we learn from this is that gun emplacement (in this example a quad gun) is a piece of terrain, that has special rules that allow it to be shot at and assaulted and has been given a characteristic profile in order for those rules to work with the special rules associated with it.

it is not a model, and thus does not satisfy the criteria for first blood.

references:

p19 strong hold assault
p44 BRB lists unit types
p70-87 BRB lists vehicles and associated rules
p2-3 BRB characteristics

nutty, did that come with snapping fingers and an arm flourish at the end? ...because they just got told.

 deviantduck wrote:
nutty, did that come with snapping fingers and an arm flourish at the end? ...because they just got told.

haha, no, Grendel is a personal friend and I think he let this get under his skin a little.

just laid out the facts in question, its pretty clear by the books and figure I'd best reference and keep it as simple as possible.

*Slow Clapping.*
Still well done, I really liked the page quotes.

There's only so many times you can quote a rule

 grendel083 wrote:
There's only so many times you can quote a rule

No kidding.

If it's not a model though, you need to explain why you think blasts can hit it? especially when it's not shot at it and it gets scattered onto. or how do any wounds get allocated to it? Fun with RAW and CC wounds. You assign wounds to the closest 'model', just 'model' not 'enemy model'. So if you assault it the closest models would be your own unit as you're not in B2B with any other models. Of course that's not the way anyone plays it, but it's still not a model in CC.

Yet you're willing to ignore all usages of the words 'unit' and 'model' in the shooting & assault phases, yet when it comes to tank shocking now you want to enforce it. doesn't that sound hypocritical to you?

saying it's not a model, then ignoring all references to model is the same thing as acknowledging RAW it is a model. the end result is the same.

so again, permission was granted and is never revoked, it is a model. which works quite well with the shooting & assault rules. have you found the denial yet? once you find the denial or can explain your logic of how a model is also not a model, then we can move on to the other issues that may arrise.

What's the unit type of a Quad gun?
It is a requirement of being a model, a rule FAR more specific that the weak rule you keep throwing around. A very specific rule you continue to ignore.

And IF a gun emplacement is a model (it isn't) then what stops it giving away first blood? What stops someone tankshocking it? If it's a model it must be in a unit also. Page numbers please.

sirlynchmob wrote:
If it's not a model though, you need to explain why you think blasts can hit it? especially when it's not shot at it and it gets scattered onto. or how do any wounds get allocated to it? Fun with RAW and CC wounds. You assign wounds to the closest 'model', just 'model' not 'enemy model'. So if you assault it the closest models would be your own unit as you're not in B2B with any other models. Of course that's not the way anyone plays it, but it's still not a model in CC.

Because the Rules for the gun Emplacement say ". The gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat." (105)

It acts like a model for this purpose since you can shoot at it and attack it in CC.

It of course is not a model. If it were it would give first blood...

There are two things -and two things only- that define a model for the games purposes.

1. It has some form of characteristics. Vehicles use Vehicle Characteristics, slightly different to normal ones, but characteristics all the same.

2. It has a unit type. Vehicles, all of them, have a unit type, generally just Unit Type: Vehicle.

While the quad gun fulfils number 1, it doesn't fulfil number 2, making it literally impossible to be a game defined model. Any other interpretation is completely ignoring the rule stating, perfectly clearly, that ALL models have a Unit Type.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
If it's not a model though, you need to explain why you think blasts can hit it? especially when it's not shot at it and it gets scattered onto. or how do any wounds get allocated to it? Fun with RAW and CC wounds. You assign wounds to the closest 'model', just 'model' not 'enemy model'. So if you assault it the closest models would be your own unit as you're not in B2B with any other models. Of course that's not the way anyone plays it, but it's still not a model in CC.

Because the Rules for the gun Emplacement say ". The gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat." (105)

It acts like a model for this purpose since you can shoot at it and attack it in CC.

It of course is not a model. If it were it would give first blood...

the rules for building stated, you can shoot & assault them as if they were a vehicle.

Now where for the gun emplacement does it say, you can shoot & assault them as if they were a model? If it wasn't a model they'd have to declare it to be treated like on. They don't need to do that here, because they've already been declared a model.

I'm not the one creating this false dichotomy of it's a model, yet not a model. I'm still waiting for the rule to show where if you have a model (that will be called a model in the rules) that doesn't have a unit type, then it stops being a model.

Before we start worrying about first blood, did someone bring it, or was it just there and no one paid points for it. but lets settle the model issue first.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Now where for the gun emplacement does it say, you can shoot & assault them as if they were a model? If it wasn't a model they'd have to declare it to be treated like on. They don't need to do that here, because they've already been declared a model.

If it were a model then that rule wouldn't be there in the first place.
There are some rules like this, they take a common sense approach. The rule allows you to shoot at it. If that did not allow you to also allocate wounds, then the rule is pointless. Very stricktly speaking you can't allocate wounds. You're very much taking the "wraithguard can't shoot, they have no eyes" approach here. Apply a little common sense and the rule works fine.

I'm not the one creating this false dichotomy of it's a model, yet not a model. I'm still waiting for the rule to show where if you have a model (that will be called a model in the rules) that doesn't have a unit type, then it stops being a model.

"In addition to it's characteristic profile, each model will have a unit type..."
There's your rule. As requested.
No Unit Type? Not a model.

Before we start worrying about first blood, did someone bring it, or was it just there and no one paid points for it. but lets settle the model issue first.

There is no issue. If it's a model it IS First Blood. It can also be Tank Shocked.
Enemies cannot move within 1". This means no enemy can ever land on the battlements of your building. Or take over a Gun Emaplacement. You see how the "it's a model" theory falls appart?

 nutty_nutter wrote:
quad gun: gun emplacement: battlefield debris

has rules that specifically allow it to be shot and assaulted.

has no unit type

please note that it NOT considered a model within the updated rules of Strong hold assault and is constantly referred to as a gun emplacement.

note that the designation as battlefield debris means that the emplacement is treated as terrain, as such it is not a 'model' by the definitions of the game.

note that vehicles are defined as models with characteristics and that the designation of 'vehicle' is the unit type. (p3 BRB)

p2 of the BRB gives us the framework to work with and specifies that 9 characteristics are used to attribute the characteristics of defined models, p2 then tells us how we handle modifiers and outlines what these characteristics represent.

p3 tells us that every model has an associated profile, it then gives us a comparison between an ork and a space marine.

it then tells us that in addition to a characteristic profile, the model will have a unit type. gives p44 as a reference and points out vehicles are a law unto themselves.

what we learn from this is that gun emplacement (in this example a quad gun) is a piece of terrain, that has special rules that allow it to be shot at and assaulted and has been given a characteristic profile in order for those rules to work with the special rules associated with it.

it is not a model, and thus does not satisfy the criteria for first blood.

references:

p19 strong hold assault
p44 BRB lists unit types
p70-87 BRB lists vehicles and associated rules
p2-3 BRB characteristics

obviously this was missed by some the first time around....