Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey everyone!

I recently jumped into a nearby gaming club for rogue trader and 40k, after being steamrolled by eldar (and having the time of my life ) whilst playing my orks, i asked the organizer of the club if we could do an Apocalypse match the next weekend, unfortunately, because my imperial guard and orks (and basically every other bloody army i play, because i love converting) use a fair amount of proxies - gatling guns instead of plasma guns and scratchbuilt trukks to name a few, i'm not allowed to play because it would be "too confusing" during the game.
I was extremely annoyed by this because i specifically wanted to play guard during Apoc. The thing is though, i met all the rulebook's requirements for proxies on my previous match the eldar - Telling my opponent what all my units were/had ( in fact i mentioned each proxied unit twice before the match) and my adversary was fine with it.

And so my good companions of DakkaDakka, what is your opinion of people using proxies during Apoc matches? Or for that matter, any proxies?

Too confusing when playing orks? Sir...Just tell on stat of game what is what... Orks are orks! We loot stuff it's what we do!
Conversions aint proxies, a proxie is using model a instead of model b. A conversion can be model b but converted to be model a. Allot more acceptable. Even my local GW allows me to use my looted tau stuff with trakks and wheels on the devilfish for a example

Actually, I think what you are describing are counts as.

A proxy would be if you took a can of coke and called it a knight.

A counts as would be if you took a model that has a plasma gun glued onto it and said it has a melta (after paying for it, of course).

A conversion is technically a counts as.

It still surprises me that people can be so severely butthurt about using proxies (at least, any proxy that could be considered a scratch-build, conversion, counts-as, etc) in apocalypse. I mean, okay, the rulebook states that 'Players can take any upgrades permitted by their army lists, but any such upgrades should be represented on the model', so I can see why someone would be opposed to them.

Then again, this is apocalypse! The whole idea of apocalypse is throw-your-entire-collection-on-the-table-and-have-fun! If you disallow someone to join because of proxies, or even forbid him from using certain units, you're simply ruining this idea IMO. In normal games of 40k I can at least respect someone's opinion for being against proxies , but this is nothing more than disallowing creativity and being elitist against people who can't afford GW's overly expensive models in large quantities.

Still, I'm not sure if you'll be able to convince your game organizer of this though. My suggestion is to wait a month or two and then host your own apocalypse game. Remember, you only need to have the organizer agree with proxies, and being the organizer yourself helps solve this problem
Just don't host another game like two weeks after his, that'll probably only lead to disputes and potentially even division of your gaming club...

 phatonic wrote:
Too confusing when playing orks? Sir...Just tell on stat of game what is what... Orks are orks! We loot stuff it's what we do!
Conversions aint proxies, a proxie is using model a instead of model b. A conversion can be model b but converted to be model a. Allot more acceptable. Even my local GW allows me to use my looted tau stuff with trakks and wheels on the devilfish for a example

No worries I'll have to ask them how they feel about counts as conversions then, Unfortunately, no one there ever seems to convert and something like 25 people go there overall, i feel really lonely in that respect. :/

There is a difference between proxies and counts-as. A proxy is a model of something else entirely being used for something its not intended for. Counts-as is the use of something specifically converted to represent something else. I am against the use of proxies. I am fine with the use of counts-as, so long as it is WYSIWYG (meaning that if you're using a gatling gun as a plasma gun on one model, you better be using the same gatling gun for every other model armed with a plasma gun).

In all honesty though, pretty much all my conversions are counts as, as mentioned earlier. Although they took that as proxy... *cri ser herd*

You have to show me pictures. Add "Maybe" to the list of choices on your poll. It's not a cut and dry, YES or NO.

"i'm not allowed to play because it would be "too confusing" during the game. "

Show me pictures, please. Also, remember that an apocalypse game with 3 people per side and 12k points of crap on the table is a daunting, logistical nightmare. You MIGHT get 3 turns in, you have people waiting for X person to make saves before they can shoot at Y unit next. You have people in and out of the room. You have maybe 6 hours of actual game time. You have 6 people talking over each other. Mass Hysteria!

If you throw in a players making tons of crazy ass scratch builds and the other 5 players having to ask what ____ is, then you've gone to far with your proxies and you're ruining everyone else's time.

TLDR: If it takes me 10 minutes every round for you to explain what your gak is, don't bring it to apocalypse games.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There is a difference between proxies and counts-as. A proxy is a model of something else entirely being used for something its not intended for. Counts-as is the use of something specifically converted to represent something else. I am against the use of proxies. I am fine with the use of counts-as, so long as it is WYSIWYG (meaning that if you're using a gatling gun as a plasma gun on one model, you better be using the same gatling gun for every other model armed with a plasma gun).

What if that Gatling gun is glued onto the model, and your opponent just wants to try out a plasma for that one model? Not everyone knows of pinning, or has access to magnets.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There is a difference between proxies and counts-as. A proxy is a model of something else entirely being used for something its not intended for. Counts-as is the use of something specifically converted to represent something else. I am against the use of proxies. I am fine with the use of counts-as, so long as it is WYSIWYG (meaning that if you're using a gatling gun as a plasma gun on one model, you better be using the same gatling gun for every other model armed with a plasma gun).

Oh and yes, my count-as is consistent, thanks for reminding me of that one!

Alright well, here are my plasma gunner vets, and my executioner from the side. Hope this helped.

It depends, if it is a simple counts as (all these plasma guns are meltas) I'm fine with it, easy to keep track of. If its complicated (this plasma is a melta, this ones a flamer...) I'd probably say no.

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
Alright well, here are my plasma gunner vets, and my executioner from the side. Hope this helped.

Ah, that's what you meant by gatling gun. I thought it was something else

Yeah, as long as all of those are plasma, in that case, it should be fine.

Picture 1: Do all of your plasma guns look like that? Is the Gatling Gun used for any other special weapon? Do your flamers or melta guns have another proxy?

Picture 2: What is it?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There is a difference between proxies and counts-as. A proxy is a model of something else entirely being used for something its not intended for. Counts-as is the use of something specifically converted to represent something else. I am against the use of proxies. I am fine with the use of counts-as, so long as it is WYSIWYG (meaning that if you're using a gatling gun as a plasma gun on one model, you better be using the same gatling gun for every other model armed with a plasma gun).

What if that Gatling gun is glued onto the model, and your opponent just wants to try out a plasma for that one model? Not everyone knows of pinning, or has access to magnets.

Thats called a proxy. It's acceptable in friendly games for the purposes of playtesting a list, etc. But not in tournaments, and not in large games like Apocalypse where there are so many models on the table and you need to be able to tell what each unit is armed with on a cursory glance.

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There is a difference between proxies and counts-as. A proxy is a model of something else entirely being used for something its not intended for. Counts-as is the use of something specifically converted to represent something else. I am against the use of proxies. I am fine with the use of counts-as, so long as it is WYSIWYG (meaning that if you're using a gatling gun as a plasma gun on one model, you better be using the same gatling gun for every other model armed with a plasma gun).

Oh and yes, my count-as is consistent, thanks for reminding me of that one!

Then you shouldnt have an issue IMO.

 kronk wrote:
Picture 1: Do all of your plasma guns look like that? Is the Gatling Gun used for any other special weapon? Do your flamers or melta guns have another proxy?

Picture 2: What is it?

Apparently, picture 2 is meant to be an Executioner. So a big ass plasma cannon.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Picture 1: Do all of your plasma guns look like that? Is the Gatling Gun used for any other special weapon? Do your flamers or melta guns have another proxy?

Picture 2: What is it?

Apparently, picture 2 is meant to be an Executioner. So a big ass plasma cannon.

Ah. It's adding 3" - 4" to the gun's range and it looks nothing like the intended weapon, so I can see why people might care. It does look silly, but I'd allow it.

Still need OP's answer to #1, though.

 kronk wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Picture 1: Do all of your plasma guns look like that? Is the Gatling Gun used for any other special weapon? Do your flamers or melta guns have another proxy?

Picture 2: What is it?

Apparently, picture 2 is meant to be an Executioner. So a big ass plasma cannon.

Ah. It's adding 3" - 4" to the gun's range and it looks nothing like the intended weapon, so I can see why people might care. It does look silly, but I'd allow it.

Still need OP's answer to #1, though.

Yes, all my plasma guns look like that :p I was also thought we measure from the vehicle's hull for range, right?

No. Weapons on vehicles measure from the weapon itself. You just extended the range of a 36" gun to ~40".

If all of your plasma gunners have those gatlings, and no gatling is used for anything else, then I'm fine with it.

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Picture 1: Do all of your plasma guns look like that? Is the Gatling Gun used for any other special weapon? Do your flamers or melta guns have another proxy?

Picture 2: What is it?

Apparently, picture 2 is meant to be an Executioner. So a big ass plasma cannon.

Ah. It's adding 3" - 4" to the gun's range and it looks nothing like the intended weapon, so I can see why people might care. It does look silly, but I'd allow it.

Still need OP's answer to #1, though.

Yes, all my plasma guns look like that :p I was also thought we measure from the vehicle's hull for range, right?

When shooting at a vehicle. When shooting from a vehicle you measure from it's weapon.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Picture 1: Do all of your plasma guns look like that? Is the Gatling Gun used for any other special weapon? Do your flamers or melta guns have another proxy?

Picture 2: What is it?

Apparently, picture 2 is meant to be an Executioner. So a big ass plasma cannon.

Ah. It's adding 3" - 4" to the gun's range and it looks nothing like the intended weapon, so I can see why people might care. It does look silly, but I'd allow it.

Still need OP's answer to #1, though.

Yes, all my plasma guns look like that :p I was also thought we measure from the vehicle's hull for range, right?

When shooting at a vehicle. When shooting from a vehicle you measure from it's weapon.

._. I did not know that

Dearest apologies, i suppose i'll measure from where the original weapon was rather than the big ass barrel, or something like that D:

I don't normally like proxies, but if they are well made conversions that fit the 40k aesthetic, I'd love to play against them. I convert a lot of stuff myself as well.
I agree with Kronk. I think your tank looks really cool, but that weapon is way too long. Those gunners don't really look like they have plasma weapons, so that might be confusing to some people, but as long as you would be consistent about it (all gatling guns are plasma) I wouldn't have any problems with it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't normally like proxies, but if they are well made conversions that fit the 40k aesthetic, I'd love to play against them. I convert a lot of stuff myself as well.
I agree with Kronk. I think your tank looks really cool, but that weapon is way too long. Those gunners don't really look like they have plasma weapons, so that might be confusing to some people, but as long as you would be consistent about it (all gatling guns are plasma) I wouldn't have any problems with it.

Bah, just paint the gatlings with glowing barrels. That should do it.

After all, high-tech = glowing

We all get hung-up on terminology so please be careful of your terms.

Your fancy looking Imperial Guard are carrying something that looks like gatling guns or assault cannons.
Now we know they cannot carry those.
You say "They count as plasma guns."
This is perfectly valid, it is not a "proxy".
As stated, a brick used instead of a tank would be a proxy.

As pointed out earlier, as long as your "count as" weapon is not regularly used throughout your army for what it actually is (in this case AS an assault cannon) then you are good.

Trying very hard to do WYSIWYG is terribly important in Apocalypse because so much is going on adding to the confusion is more inconsiderate than a violation of the rules.

I bet if these models werent plastic grey people wouldnt react the same way. So sit down and paint your models and while you are at it add plasmaglows to clarify further what your counts as weapons are.

First off, nice models!

Second, sadly it is really up to the event organiser as to what can be included, not to us enlightened dakkadakkarites :(.

Keeping in mind that I do really like your models, I do think the rules you are using to represent them are a little confusing.


If I were you I'd want to have all my plasma weapons look similar. The tank's weapon looks like it would be awesomely destructive, I could imagine that causing a devestating explosion. The gatling guns look completely different so unless they were painted in similar styles (distinct to any non-plasma weapon in your army) I really wouldn't guess that both weapons are represented by the plasma weapons rules.

Now I may be biased as my fantasy empire army includes out riders, but those plasma guns look like multiple shot hand guns to me . I think you'd do well to follow CthuluIsSpy's glowing advice at least, or if you are willing to put in more work, add some warp zappy bits to the 'plasma guns' so they match the executioner, some power cabling looping from the barrel to the stock and then running to their back packs might help tie the plasma guns/executioner together much better? If these options don't fly perhaps ask the organiser if he feels there are options in the codex that would better represent these models (such as bolters or whatever).

In summary though, I do feel the organiser is being a little unfair, even if perhaps your conversion are not entirely clear. Apoc is about using or your best toys for a laugh and your toys certainly are cool and would be a good laugh to use, so I feel your frustrations is vindicated.

nareik wrote:
First off, nice models!

Second, sadly it is really up to the event organiser as to what can be included, not to us enlightened dakkadakkarites :(.

Keeping in mind that I do really like your models, I do think the rules you are using to represent them are a little confusing.


If I were you I'd want to have all my plasma weapons look similar. The tank's weapon looks like it would be awesomely destructive, I could imagine that causing a devestating explosion. The gatling guns look completely different so unless they were painted in similar styles (distinct to any non-plasma weapon in your army) I really wouldn't guess that both weapons are represented by the plasma weapons rules.

Now I may be biased as my fantasy empire army includes out riders, but those plasma guns look like multiple shot hand guns to me . I think you'd do well to follow CthuluIsSpy's glowing advice at least, or if you are willing to put in more work, add some warp zappy bits to the 'plasma guns' so they match the executioner, some power cabling looping from the barrel to the stock and then running to their back packs might help tie the plasma guns/executioner together much better? If these options don't fly perhaps ask the organiser if he feels there are options in the codex that would better represent these models (such as bolters or whatever).

In summary though, I do feel the organiser is being a little unfair, even if perhaps your conversion are not entirely clear. Apoc is about using or your best toys for a laugh and your toys certainly are cool and would be a good laugh to use, so I feel your frustrations is vindicated.

Thanks for the kind words! I'll probably do something along those lines with the glow, furthermore i really wanted to have some sort of heavy machinegun for my guard, to fit with the steampunk aesthetic, as so i picked to count as a plasma gun simply because of the amount of shots i would picture said weapon unleashing, i even wrote a copious amount of fluff for my army and the counts as units too!

I really wanted to have a russ with some sort of lightning gun and so i chose executioner for the sheer amount of destruction it can sow, and due to it's unreliability

Depends on the game.

Some of our games are more "Narrative" and have a scenario or story (for example, guard vs. orks, etc) ally restrictions, or even request painted armies only.

Other games are "Bring whatever!" Necrons ally with Marines? Sure! Nids ally with sisters! Sure! Testing a unit and want to use a shoe box? Sure!

Most games are in between.

Now, as some as the others have pointed out, there is a big difference between "proxy" and "counts as".

If a model is well done, I could care less regarding it in a "counts as", and we would be fine with it even in one of our more "narrative" games which have restrictions.

But we we have also had games which were more free form, and players were testing models for the specific point of trying to decide if they wanted to get one - one player had a cardboard box for a tesseract vault, (tried to get the size right) and another had one of his kids toys for a hierophant (again, at least he tried to get the size right).

Both of these were fine - neither player was trying to "get out" of making a decent looking unit for the table, they just wanted to see how well a unit would do before investing the time and effort of getting a table ready model.

I think most of these "polls' and debates stem from more specific scenarios in the past where someone was not happy with the actions or motivations of another player.

Just my 2 cents...