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WYSIWYG. In your opinions, what is the most difficult army to learn? This can take into account several factors such as complexity, difficulty acquiring synergy, randomness, interaction between numerous rules, etc.

Daemons.

Every other army, you can build an army, learn the specific rules that apply to the units you chose, and you can basically forget the rest of the codex if you want.

Daemons, you have to memorise the entire damn book because you have no control over which part of it you're going to be using in any given game.

I'm going with complexity and number of rules in the book, and my vote is Daemons. They have a lot of very specific rules and a lot of charts. I feel that a list with them will involve a lot of keeping track as well. Keeping track of spells, markers and special circumstances that involve another rule to come in to place.

Sisters.

Just getting your hands on the codex alone is a hassle

Who picked Necrons?

I've never played them but I constantly hear that Dark Eldar are definitely not an army for beginners. They have the potential to be very powerful but can also be wiped out by a few bad rolls.

Daemons require more memorization of the codex but I think they are a more forgiving army when it comes to strategy.

Not based on effectiveness but rules I voted Necrons...
Why?
Well:
Generic special rules: Did you remember your rp rolls? Of course you did. Now do you remember how everliving is different? How about living metal - don't forget about that!

Hq:
So many special characters with so many massively different rules, from trayzans hosts and oblitorator, obyrons deepstriking shinanigans, anrakyrs MitM to unit boosts such as orikans TSaR, Imoteks HS (lets not forget LotS) and Szeras MA.
Want to run an overlord on a barge? Best learn how chariots work! Mindshackle scarabs - plenty of posts in dakka forums about how to use these. Multitude of different equipment options. And dont forget the destroyer lords PE!
Royal court? Best learn haywire rules for stormteks, wounding on ld for despairteks which gets even more confusing with the addition of deathmarks. Look at that treasury of different wargear options that all have massively different effects too. To top it off they can staybas a unit or be assigned to other units, but only one to another unit... unless you have more overlords then its more...

Troops:
Warriors and immortals, either with gauss or tesla remember good things happen on a six... but different good things! These become more complex with the addition of royal court members.

Dedicated transports:
Nightscythe - these are very popular so best brush up on your flyer rules. Also don't forget your arcing on that destructor - even pros often do. Also need to know that it does not work like any other flyer for the purposes of embarking and disembarking or even what happens to units inside when it goes boom.
Ghost ark and CC barge - now learn the repair barge rule, but even more important - was that HP you lost earlier a glance or a pen, because it matters due to your quantum shielding! Lets not forget sweep attacks on the CC barge either. Oh and both skimmers so need to be up to spek with those rules too.

Elites:
C'tan - which spec powers you taking? What do they all do? Will you remember them? Now learn MC rules!
Deathmarks - a pile of spec rules, oh and learn sniper rules please.
Lychguards - dispersion shields take a bit to get your head around.

FA:
Wraiths - invuln saves, rending, fearless, reduction of initiative... learn these rules.
Scarabs - swarms, fearless, entropic strike... learn these too but don't ever forget that pen rolls happen after es rolls. Now think of a way to keep track of opponents vehicles AVs.
Tomb blades and destroyers require you to learn rules for jetbikes and jump infantry.

HS:
Lets get quantum shielding, skimmer and living metal out of the way as theybhave already been mentioned.
Doomsday ark - different shot output dependent on movement, very different to any other weapon.
Annihilation barge - again dont forget tesla or the arcing!
Monolith - eternity gate, read 3 times. Weapons also can shoot at 5 different targets
Doom scythe - a weapon which works like no other in the game.
Spyders - spawning rules, learn mc rules...

Necrons - NOT an army to introduce somebody to the game with!

I find that any army relying on 'tricks' that need to be done at certain times are a bit tricky to pick up. Things like IG needing orders at the start of the shoot phase, Eldar doing powers at the start of the turn or Demons with rolling for what table to roll on at any given moment all require a bit of forethought and practice.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Who picked Necrons?

Someone with a great (or horrible) sense of humor lol.

I voted Dark Eldar. They are horribly fragile, and one misstep can spell doom for your entire army.

I see some people also voted daemons. While they definitely aren't a great first army, they aren't that hard to use. We have several real strong builds, and the trickiest part to Monster Mash is rolling well on the psychic charts. Screamerstar players can merely faceroll their way to victory. Don't get me wrong, I love daemons, their my primary army, and have been since they first rolled out with their own codex years ago.

greg0985 wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Who picked Necrons?

Someone with a great (or horrible) sense of humor lol.

I voted Dark Eldar. They are horribly fragile, and one misstep can spell doom for your entire army.

I see some people also voted daemons. While they definitely aren't a great first army, they aren't that hard to use. We have several real strong builds, and the trickiest part to Monster Mash is rolling well on the psychic charts. Screamerstar players can merely faceroll their way to victory. Don't get me wrong, I love daemons, their my primary army, and have been since they first rolled out with their own codex years ago.

Yeah, but you have so many crazy random things to keep track of it's more of a logistical challenge than a tactical one. :p

DEldar are tricky tactically, though, I agree.

BrotherVord wrote:Sisters.

Just getting your hands on the codex alone is a hassle

No, seriously, it's easy. Go to the Black Library website and buy it. You don't even need to leave the house, it's that easy. Sisters are easy to play and win with.

Poly Ranger wrote:Not based on effectiveness but rules I voted Necrons...
Why?
Well:
Generic special rules: Did you remember your rp rolls? Of course you did. Now do you remember how everliving is different? How about living metal - don't forget about that!

-snip-

I couldn't disagree more. Necron units are solid all-round troops that can be fielded without worrying about any of the special stuff. RP is as simple as remembering to knock your models over instead of removing them, then roll to see if they come back. Most of their characters just take another aspect of the army and do it harder.

I'm saying this as a long-time Necron player, though, so I guess maybe it's just familiarity breeding contempt.

Actually I listed good reasons why necrons would be a very difficult army for a beginner to learn with and before I started I specifically stated that I was basing it solely on rules and nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know Necrons are one of the strongest dexes. I know they are forgiving with mistakes. I know their units have great synergy. I know it is difficult to even try and make a bad necron list. I based it ONLY on the mass of rules a NEW player would have to learn as necrons. I play necrons. I know how strong they are.
Everyone so far seems to have based their decision based on being a current player starting a new army. I ambasing it on how difficult it would be for a beginner.

Absolutely DE. They require by far the most complicated tactics. But once you figure them out, they are awesome.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Actually I listed good reasons why necrons would be a very difficult army for a beginner to learn with and before I started I specifically stated that I was basing it solely on rules and nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know Necrons are one of the strongest dexes. I know they are forgiving with mistakes. I know their units have great synergy. I know it is difficult to even try and make a bad necron list. I based it ONLY on the mass of rules a NEW player would have to learn as necrons. I play necrons. I know how strong they are.
Everyone so far seems to have based their decision based on being a current player starting a new army. I ambasing it on how difficult it would be for a beginner.

Yes, and I disagreed with you on the same basis. I am allowed to do that.

The only army easier to learn the game with is Space Marines, and then only because they ignore half the rulebook.

Every army has special rules that apply only to them. The Necrons only have one that can't be ignored by not taking the units that rely on it when you're learning. Compared to say, Guard - Orders, platoons and upgrades, oh my!

I'd say Chaos Daemons.


Oh you want to play a game? How about we roll on 5 different tables first? Didn't get what you were hoping for? Tough luck, better have a back up plan.

Seriously, the whole codex is so random that you need to have a large amount of skill to effectively use it. Even a screamerstar can be destroyed in one turn if the dice gods judge you to be unworthy.

BrotherVord wrote:
Sisters.

Just getting your hands on the codex alone is a hassle

No it's not. It's on iTunes and the Black Library site under the digital codexes section.

I vote Dark Eldar because of how assault works in this edition, the nerf to FnP making their Power from Pain rule less good and basically everything that made them less effective at stabbing people in the kidneys.

If you aren't just spamming as many Wave Serpents as possible, I'd say Eldar. I can't understand how that army is supposed to work. (I speak from an outsider's perspective, though.)

Dark Eldar are the hardest out of the armies I play.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If you aren't just spamming as many Wave Serpents as possible, I'd say Eldar. I can't understand how that army is supposed to work. (I speak from an outsider's perspective, though..

For real??

Almost all of the units in the codex can move in the shooting phase giving you lots of options as far as positioning, range, and net distance from your opponent when their turn starts. Warp Spiders and Jet Bikes can do the same except in all three phases. Not everyhting in the book is all that durable, but they've got enough flexibility that they don't seem to hard to play.

I've been playing quite regularly against Eldar since 3rd edition, though, so that may influence my feelings.

My vote would have to go with Daemons. I got into them recently after 9+ years of playing 40K and they can still be a nightmare to keep track of sometimes. A nightmare that I love nonetheless.

They can be quite powerful, but, to me, it feels like just to play one list well, I have to learn tactics for, say, 3 different lists depending on the Psychic powers I roll that game and how they interact not only with the army, but with themselves. That and remembering to position correctly to mitigate damage as well as be able for the units to buff one another/synergise can be difficult

I'd have to say it is a toss up between daemons and de. Daemons have 3 relatively easy lists. Khornedogs, flying circus, and screamers far. Even then, it involves risks abound or a 300 pt tax for fate Weaver whom is devestating but also vulnerable (only T5 as an example). The army suffers from extreme randomness from weapons, to how many shots they get, to what spells they get, to even their invuln. It is all a game of risk. DE are older and glass cannons. They lost some steam but their alpha still hurts. If not though, it is an uphill battle.

I'm going with CD. I've never ran them myself but they have alot of strange rules and seems to have to pick between swarms or monstrous units; I haven't seen and good middle-man between the two.

Lol necron reasoning

I voted IG just because I found them complicated..Even after playing with them for a few months, I still find their rule set complicated >.> BUT honestly Daemons are the WORST for memorizing dex. You just.... can't.

Chaos Daemons in terms of logistics, Dark Eldar in terms of tactics, but the most difficult army for GW to figure out has got to be Tyranids.

Most definetely Dark Eldar. The thought about units that move insanely fast, hit like truck, but are made out of glass and napkins with pretty spiky ribbons that just can't take any form of damage, their stats already make it sound beginner-hostile.
Most of the time, every mistake hurts - a lot.

It is sad to see how rare sight the Dark Eldar are in the gaming tables where I play, but I share the DE players' sentiments. They've got very cool models and badass gear in their use, but when most of the other races can just was the floors with the DE player's hair via basic wargear - such as SM Tacticals glancing the transports to death - I feel bad for them.

Dark eldar. I tried playing them as a first army. Lost every game. Said "SCREW THAT" and turned to tyranids.

The second most difficult army to learn.