Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A quick easy and fluffy fix for orks and how they interact with challenges.

Animosity: (as a army wide rule for most everything in the codex)
A unit with this special rule may accept, but not declare, a challenge.

I also propose a sub-rule to accompany it.

"Let's Krump This Git":
If a unit with the Animosity special rule receives a challenge from a lone character (such a a solo IC or a MC character) the entire unit may accept the challenge together. If the player chooses to do so, continue the combat as though a challenge had not been declared.


This would solve almost 100% of the problems that arise in 6th edition due to the introduction of challenges, without negatively affecting how other armies play (except Chaos, but that's because of a bad rule included in that codex).

...So Orks effectively ignore challenges? (Worse, since you can limit Kaldor Draigo to killing a boy per turn while the other 29 set about his squad)

I see no need for this.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
...So Orks effectively ignore challenges? (Worse, since you can limit Kaldor Draigo to killing a boy per turn while the other 29 set about his squad)

I see no need for this.

Draigo would be limited to killing one boy a turn only if the grey knight player wanted him to be. As you can see in the OP, the boys themselves would not be able to issue challenges.

So what it does is ensuring the Nob can't be picked out until every single boy has been killed?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
So what it does is ensuring the Nob can't be picked out until every single boy has been killed?

Things like precision hits would be able to drop him, and of course the nob is not necessarily the last to be killed depending on placement. But yes, the whole purpose of the rule is to allow the nob to actually function in the manner he did prior to 6th's inclusion of Fantasy style challenges. It really has a massive effect on how Orks function as a codex and how viable certain units are melee.

In 5th edition you had to kill every single boy to get to the nob while he could happily whack the enemy who was forced to ignore him.

This is not good design.

The nob is already very capable of beating pretty much any other sergeant level character thanks to W2, and a power klaw only reinforces this.

Again, there is no need to add this change.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In 5th edition you had to kill every single boy to get to the nob while he could happily whack the enemy who was forced to ignore him.

This is not good design.

The nob is already very capable of beating pretty much any other sergeant level character thanks to W2, and a power klaw only reinforces this.

Again, there is no need to add this change.

My experience playing Orks in 6th Edition disagree with you.

Thanks to Challenges, here is the role of the Nob in every combat:

1) Gets challenged by an enemy who is guaranteed to kill the Nob, in most cases before the Nob will get to attack. Nob has to choose between sacrificing himself or declining the challenge so that the Boyz can still use his Bosspole.

2) Gets challenged by a low-level Sergeant that the Nob is guaranteed to kill. This most often happens against Warbosses. Warboss wins the fight, but instead of causing 2-3 wounds to the enemy squad, only causes 1. This draws out the combat, or possibly forces the Orks to make a morale save when normally they'd have several more wounds on their side.

Thanks to scenario 1, I stopped giving all my Nobz Powerklaws not long after 6th edition. They simply NEVER get to attack. The Powerklaw becomes a waste of points. This is in an army, that as a whole RELIES on the Powerklaw to do its serious damage. Other than Lootas, we have NO reliable high-strength shooting power. Most of the Orks' serious damage comes from the Powerklaw. It's how we kill tanks, it's how we kill Monstrous Creatures, it's how we kill other infantry with high armor saves. Thanks to challenges, it's now a waste of points, and the entire ARMY suffers because of it.

This is one of many reasons that the only remotely viable Ork armies are Lootas, Shoota Boys, and Bikers.

A Nob having 29 ablative wounds is not fair either.

Most of the time I see the Nob sitting back far enough that the first round of combat, is not engaged until he piles in. This gives him free hits with the rest of his squad before getting locked in a challenge. Furthermore, I don't understand the fluff behind this rule. Last I heard, you insulted a Nobs mother in front of the Ladz, he would krump anyone who stood between him and you.

The only time my nob gets to do anything is when I'm playing somebody who doesn't know how to play against orks. Usually after I get into combat there are not enough dice to weigh of dice as effectively as I'd like, and the klaw does the heavy lifting. As has been said already it's the strongest and most useful tool orks have. Usually the only way I can kill a tank is to charge it with the klaw.

Also, if I get charged by anything scary my nob is neutralized, and the rest of the squad does nothing.

I'm not sure if this rule would work or is fair, but I agree that something needs to change.

I don't think that orkses should get this unique mechanics. I believe that the stupid challenge system must be reworked itself. I propose: no penalties if you decline a challenge. If the character has his challenge declined - he gets +1 Attack. That's all. Maybe not plain +1 attack but Rampage / Hatred / Prefered Enemy / something like this. The system is illogical and broken itself.

Abbaddon is not supposed to consider it worthwile to waste time in 'challenges' against 5 barebones ig sergeants when he charges a 50-strong blob. He sees no difference there. Sergeant or regular guardsman - they're just bodies ready to get mutilated in a second. While a spacemarine captain and everyone around him can clearly see that it's no use fighting one on one versus a huge monstrous hive tyrant.

Yep, some characters are derpy enough to be forced to accept any challenges and issue them to anything - be it guardsman sergeant, spacemarine captain, hive tyrant, kitten or a nearby tree. But that should be an exception and not a general rule.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
A Nob having 29 ablative wounds is not fair either.

It worked fine in 4th and 5th edition. Nothing in 40k is "fair". You could equally say that it isn't "fair" that the entire Eldar army can both Run and Shoot in the shooting phase. It's not a question of whether or not it's fair, it's a question of an army rule that the Eldar get to use.

Every army has one or more mechanics that make them unique or unusual. Giving the Orks a challenge mechanic wouldn't be any different.

If they DON'T give Orks some kind of tool to make challenges worthwhile, then I hope the next codex significantly reduces our army's dependence on the Power Klaw to do our "heavy lifting" as AtariAssasin stated. Either that or make it a hell of a lot cheaper than it is now.

Personally I agree with kooaei. The Challenge system needs to be reworked. I like your idea of a declined challenge giving out a bonus attack to the enemy, or Prefered enemy. I've also thought in the past that the unit who is challenged should have to succeed at a Leadership check in order to successfully decline the challenge, but still be able to fight.

I personally like challenges, but I agree with one of of the problems: When a character with 5 attacks has to waste them on one guy. Since the character accepting or issuing a challenge is typically the toughest in the squad, I think it's fair to let any extra wounds that would be "wasted" in the challenge carry over to the enemy squad.
As for getting locked out of combat for fear of an enemy super character. I think that's fair. Independent characters are scary. They should get to show off. With one exception: monstrous creatures. They're drednaught sized, but can single out a character and everyone just stands around and watches? Dumb. How about all of their melee hits are precision instead. That way they can effectively attack characters without screwing over the whole combat.