Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Exalted fun lover, tis a game after all.

Ailaros point on MC killer is well founded, against nids this is encouraged as a lot of their armour solutions are tied up in MC that typically have low initiative, and even the high initiative one can be countered by terrain use.

set a brute in terrain, what it is doesn't matter as models charging models through terrain loose extra attack and count initiative as 1. nids grenade access sucks so camping a brute this way and making use of a lascannon makes him costly for a nid players to shift. he will gib zoanthoapes who are the only flaw of this tactic using the cannon. you have to add a flamer to this or he will horde you with lesser bugs to stop you shooting.

this worked fine against the older codex but it got a bit spoiled by the introduction of the exocrine, still 140pts and very annoying = profit.

nid players moaned about their new dex but it feels like the chaos one, it promotes use of your head rather than super WAAC unit

Helbrutes hold such promise. Armor 12 isn't weak. It isn't a lot of points. It acts kinda like an armored obliterator in a way but it lacks the deployment optionto deep strike unfortunately.

I don't know for sure on this one because I've seen no one but me play with one and I abandoned it quickly for the fact that i COULD get an obliterator instead.

Still, as a backfield defense unit, possibly reserved for LATER in the game, there could be some serious value. The Helbrute is actually quite good if you can avoid it getting shot up, and as a reserve it is allowed to kill freely after your other forces have formally engaged the foe to the fore.
Drop armies are in no way fond of seeing a Helbrute because it forces them to fire at IT rather than a truly important target (those that score). As a reserve it can come in after a unit has engaged the offending drop unit, bide its time and help them break free. Here again though, because it IS a vehicle, its limited in contesting and claiming objectives.

It's a tweener unit that needs a specific tactic and mission assigned to it. You dont just put it in the list because its "good". you put it in for a very specific purpose. Good news is, it's not in a slot that tends to get over used for Chaos. So the slot it occupies is probably its strength if you're going for armor saturation. In the presence of a LOT of other armor, it can help protect those other pieces.

Obliterators run different rolls to brutes, marines are often described as a jack of all trades excelling at nothing but being good at everything. Brutes play the same way, you are not the best tank killer but you can do it, you are not great at killing massed infantry but you can do it (although saying this dual flamer brute is horrifyingly effective), and your not the best monster hunter but you can do it.

A brute has a chance at succeding at what ever role you decide to use him in. This makes it flexible in TAC lists as he can enhance areas of your army, lascannon PF and flamer is a good TAC loadout. Camp back with lascannon against tanks, torch light infantry with your flamer and fist elites. Pick the roll needed depending on your opponent.

I suppose what that means as well is that hellbrutes get better the fewer points you have.

At 750 points, a tri-las predator that's sort of only good against vehicles and MCs starts to become a much riskier investment than a hellbrute, which can sort of do everything.

The problem with Chaos Dreads...er Hellbrutes, is that they're not particularly good at any one thing and are exceedingly vulnerable to being killed by HP damage. They're not much scarier in CC than a powerfist champ other than they're harder to hurt relative to most targets, they're not particularly cost effective as a shooting platform, it's very difficult to synergize both their shooting and CC abilities, and they're low enough AV that HP loss to common mid-strength weapons is a major issue while they're big enough that many players also will put major AT guns like lascannons into them that will get rid of them quite quickly. They're also rather slow.

They're better than they were, but instead of being actively potentially harmful, they just don't carry their weight.

I can get over most of the issues up above. The one thing that makes them unplayable to me is that they cannot contest or score. Just giving walkers the ability to contest would make them much more likely to be taken by me. At least maulerfieds and grinders will score every once in a while due to the mission type but an elite choice dreadnaught never has that opportunity.

The problem for me is the vehicle damage chart. A single pen can stun it for a turn, make it immobile, or reduce it to a single weapon right before rolling on the Helbrute's rage chart. They start off cheap, which I think is the way to leave them, since any more quickly drives them down in cost effectiveness.

I love the model and want to love the actual unit in game. If I had more time to dedicate to another army, I'd love to take three helbrutes with three mauler fiends, it's under 700 points for 6 AV12 vehicles that just can't be ignored. Follow them up with bikes and spawn while holding some cultist in the back and you could have a very fast sweeping army. The problem is that what sounds good doesn't always work out well on the table. Vehicles have a lot of draw backs that are exclusive to vehicles. Blind for example is extremely rare on weapons, yet so many weapons can force a vehicle to snap fire just by getting a pen.

they don't even need to pen that the worst part, just hit.

Actually, they need to suffer a glancing or penetrating hit, not just any hit. In any case, the current berzerker rage thing is at worst, a wash, and sometimes a slight benefit, and is CERTAINLY better than the old rule.

And yeah, you can't stun-lock deadnoughts either anymore, at least, not in anywhere near the same way you used to. Throw in the rolley-go-crazy table, and hellbrutes have gained from the switch to HP more than most.

actually I was on about blind weapons, against vehicles without initiative they fail the test 5 out of 6 times and snap fire. sensory overload invalidates predators. nice way to allow a brute to advance.

I've had fun running 3 maulerfiends, 3 helbrutes (just MM/fist) and then some infantry support with shooting.

Everyone laughs, and they take first blood from you, but then.... then the melta weapons run out. Then the S7 weapons run out. Then you control the board.

It was fun!

I want to do a 2k, double force org game where I take 3 maulerfiends, 3 forgefiends, and 6 helbrutes.

I've run a hellbrute in a few games. Vs crons and tyranids. In both games hellbrute was a waste of points and did nothing. However, i've run a stock version of it - multimelta + PF. Probably, there are setups that are better like Laz+ML, Plazma-cannon+Something. I'd not hope to get any luck with 2 flamers cause unlike the loyalists, you don't have droppods and being an av12 regular walker is not really promising.

Vs crons
Depending on the army, flyer spam a helbrute is useless.
However on a massed infantry lists a ml and plasma cannon is a nice loadout, gauss ruins vehicles so avoid rapid fire range like the plague.

Nids
The TAC brute, lascannon, pf, HF, takes on mc and lesser bugs, new dex buffed bids so be careful and don't rely on little brute to slay big things on his lonesome.

I've never been particularly impressed by Chaos Dreads, and remain unimpressed by Helbrutes.

They can work, even well with proper handling and the favor of the dice, but the amount of effort and fortune needed to make them function well is simply usually not worth it. They also have the misfortune of being medium armored walkers in an edition where everyone and their dog can open medium armor like a tin can and don't even have any Daemon rules despite being specifically outed as Daemon Engines (*sigh*), and they don't have the number of attacks to get anywhere attacking blobs and will get their faces beaten in by most monstrous creatures unless you build them to Ailaros' specifications.

Termicide remains the most popular option for Chaos armies because dumping a bunch of 2+ save combi-weapon holders (with some termi special weapons if you want, and power weapons by default) all up in someone's grill remains an efficient way to throw someone off his game and take out something he values. The Helbrute on the other hand, remains consigned to mediocrity.

The uncertainty of whether your Helbrute will decide to wear it's adamantium pants on it's view port for one turn and having to plan around that is also a rather unfortunate downside. But it's certainly better than before where it could, at any time decide to dump a pair of plasma cannon shots and four autocannon rounds into your formation because reasons.

But always remember to look on the bright side, at least it's gotten a less raw deal than the Defiler.

It remains a decent platform for the Plasma cannon and is a good bully unit in melee, in that while it will get it's face rolled by any serious melee units it can push around and hurt those that aren't good at fighting back and don't have the mass to keep it stuck punching termagants for the rest of the game. If you want a gunline army, you could do worse than the Helbrute to get in more guns in the elite slot.

I agree that he's not abyssmally bad like possessed or warp talons. He's more like 1000 sons. Not bad in some situations, pretty fun to use cause seen rarely but a waste overall.

Ok how about this for discussion:

You have 100 points. What else do you spend it on?

A 5 man marine squad of some type?

A sorcerer?

A bare bones predator?

20 cultists?

My best friend plays DE so I play my CSM vs DE more than any other army and the 'brute actually does pretty good against them. The AV 12 isn't an issue because pretty well everything is av 12 against DE lances. Its immune to the hail of poison shots so they if they're killing it, its with their dedicated anti-vehicle units, which means they aren't blowing up my heavy support. Its slowness doesn't stand out either because everything is slow compared to DE. In addition, most anything that doesn't have haywire grenades is helpless against it in cc.

Even with most its weaknesses assuaged its still not the greatest unit but it does better than against many armies. It can pretty reliably punch a DE vehicle in twain on a charge. It won't catch them often, but this does allow you to dissuade any vehicle coming within 6+2D6 inches. Meanwhile its gun is still threatening. The RAC really shines against DE.

Helbrutes should have more attacks as they're basically maniacs on steroids. And marks too.

Marks no. More attacks: yes.

No reason you couldn't engineer a mark system as a house rule. Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh would be easy enough.

You'd just need to do nurgle in such a way where it wouldn't be BS more powerful, like upgrading the hellbrute to AV13 for only 5 more points than a MoK.

 Ailaros wrote:
No reason you couldn't engineer a mark system as a house rule. Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh would be easy enough.

You'd just need to do nurgle in such a way where it wouldn't be BS more powerful, like upgrading the hellbrute to AV13 for only 5 more points than a MoK.

The "easiest" way to do marks is to use the same marks from the soulgrinder in the Chaos Demons codex. They are all pointed up for you and everything, and should be easier for most folks to stomach in a friendly game since at least they come out of a book of some kind rather than just being made up.

Shrouded? yes please.

There's also the FW 'marks' for walkers right? I'm not up to date on FW.

 Spellbound wrote:
Ok how about this for discussion:

You have 100 points. What else do you spend it on?

A 5 man marine squad of some type?

A sorcerer?

A bare bones predator?

20 cultists?

They all have different roles. In many situations 2*10 cultists will be more useful just cause they're scoring. But they can't do much in combat.

I think you can pay 115 for predator with sponson lazcannons. And Hellbrute with ML+AC will cost identical 115 pts But i'd go for plazma cannon for +5 pts. Which is better? It all depends on a map you've made and the opponent u're facing. If the opponent can abuse blos than hellbrute is somewhat better cause he can move and shoot 2 weapons at full bs. If you can afford to remain stationary than predator is clearly better and more durable being immune to s6 with his front armor which is common in current meta. So, here's where a helbrute can somewhat compete with predator in a number of situations.

Sorc is really great. To be honest, i value a sorc more than a chaos lord just cause he's versatile and can start contributing to the fight from the start and not just when and if he gets to mellee. Even in mellee he's a force to be reckoned with. But they have totally different roles with helbrute and hard to compare. Besides, i like my sorcs to be ml3 with spell familliars, sigil and on bike. That's how you make them shine. It's 170 pts before marks thoung.

Chaos dreadnoughts used to have 3 attacks base. I miss those days.

well I dont see why they don't now. Its a mystery to me. I suppose they are seen as a "sgt" with a real big superiority complex and no other means to express it but to mount up in a biosuit with BFG's

Still... The Helbrute model is ripper and I do like ti a lot. And if they ever gave it a littlemore oomph I'd like to field it. Maybe I'll get bored and make an army that uses them.

 Ailaros wrote:
No reason you couldn't engineer a mark system as a house rule. Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh would be easy enough.

You'd just need to do nurgle in such a way where it wouldn't be BS more powerful, like upgrading the hellbrute to AV13 for only 5 more points than a MoK.

What about the decimator marks?

15 pts Dedication of Khorne: The Decimator gains the Rampage special rule.
25 pts Dedication of Nurgle: The Decimator gains the It Will Not Die special rule.
15 pts Dedication of Slaanesh: The Decimator counts as being equipped with both assault and defensive grenades.
25 pts Dedication of Tzeentch: The Decimator may re-roll all To Hit rolls of 1 with its shooting attacks, and its heavy flamers (if it has any) gain the Soul Blaze special rule.

My biggest failure with helbrutes was when a squad of deathwing terminators landed next to a trio of them.

I charged all three into this 5-man squad of terminators. I didn't kill a single one, and they wrecked all three helbrutes in return.

Sad, sad day. He didn't even have storm shields. What do you do when the dice just decide it's not your day....

 Spellbound wrote:
My biggest failure with helbrutes was when a squad of deathwing terminators landed next to a trio of them.

Helbrutes have a hard enough time vs a fist full of krak grenades let alone power fists / thunder hammers. Really I wouldn't charge anything except vehicles,buildings or guardsmen with one (if you want to tarpit them and they don't have melta bombs).

I also wouldn't buy any of those Decimator marks at that price since the Hellbrute's only favour going for it is it's cheapness, 9/10 games none of those marks will do anything anyway. Decimator comes back from the dead and has AV 13 front (I think?) so all in all a way better deal (but still instant loose to MC)

 Spellbound wrote:
My biggest failure with helbrutes was when a squad of deathwing terminators landed next to a trio of them.

I charged all three into this 5-man squad of terminators. I didn't kill a single one, and they wrecked all three helbrutes in return.

Sad, sad day. He didn't even have storm shields. What do you do when the dice just decide it's not your day....

I know that pain, man. I think we all do. What do you do is laugh, then come up with a story why your Helbrutes were miserable at attacking. Ends up making it funny rather than frustrating.

Anyway I still contest the issue with Helbrutes is simply a total lack of way to get them in combat. Can you stick one in a Dreadclaw? Would be worth getting a Dreadclaw just for that, I think. I keep having visions of a double fist, double heavy flamer Helbrute in enemy backfields. Would be a lot of fun, I imagine, as any of his crazed results wouldn't really hinder him anymore.

To be fair, taking out dreadnoughts is one of THE things that THSS terminators are made for. You might as well complain about how badly your guardsmen held up against khorne berzerkers.

Unless you're talking about non-SS termies, in which case, you were probably just really unlucky. With the flail there's a chance that they were only hitting you on 5's. Even without, 3 S8 hits against AV12 is survivable.

But once again, I don't think that anyone is holding up dreadnoughts in CC as a way to handle terminators, whether their dreads are CSM or no.