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Having posted a couple of times today, it has become clear that although the new brutes look really cool, that is as useful as they will ever get. So it seems they are not going to get included in a list after all. So I have been wracking my brains all day try to squeeze as much into 1500 points as possible for tournaments, and yet attempting to keep my core units that I already own! I own 2 x DV models, Kharn, 20 world eaters bezerkers (Converted with FW bits), a maulerfiend, and a winged DP. I also have a set of FW world eaters land raider doors and a FW Death guard conversion pack, as Nurgle and Khorn are my two favourite chaos gods. I have accepted that its not really realistic getting all 20 zerkers in the list, as they need a delivery system, and 2 land raiders at this points cost is far too high. The guys I always want to include is Kharn, a squad of zerkers for him, their land raider and the fiend. Other than that I'm pretty open to ideas. Here's my first, I'm playing with a 2 raider list at the minute two, but I haven't finalised that yet. Let me know any thoughts...

EDIT: I have kind of combined the lists into one I'm a little more happy with. I lose the redundancy of the fiends, but I have buffed all the champs for challenges, I use all my forgeworld bits, And I think I have a tough objective holder....I also dont have to pay the ally HQ tax! Let me know what you think.



1500 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1498

HQ: Kharn the Betrayer (1#, 160 pts, Warlord)
1 Kharn the Betrayer

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 214 pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers + Chainaxe x4
1 Berzerker Champion + Lightning Claw x1 + Power Fist x1

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 214 pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers + Chainaxe x4
1 Berzerker Champion + Lightning Claw x1 + Power Fist x1

Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 240 pts)
1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster + Warpflame Gargoyles

Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 240 pts)
1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster + Warpflame Gargoyles

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 305 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines + Mark of Nurgle + Icon of Vengeance + Plasma gun x2
1 Aspiring Champion + Mark of Nurgle + Lightning Claw x1 + Power Fist x1
1 Chaos Rhino + Dirge Caster

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend

Has no one got any advice or thoughts on these two lists?

I'm no expert on Chaos, but both lists seem strong.
Kharn isn't the strongest character overall (altough he's great in CC), but makes Zerkers troops which is nice.

Your other troops are good, but you could boost the CSM squad into ten models (list 2).
The second lost is overall a bit light on troops.

And honestly, I don't see why you love Maulers... I guess they're okay.

I guess I've just had a lot of success with them. When run in pairs they make light work of any vehicles or armour on the board, and they have an epic range being able to move 12". For the points they are I think they're a good buy. I do agree on the troops front in list two, but it does give me a second nasty character, and 4 heavy slots for 2 raiders and 2 fiends!

I personally love Berzerkers in fun lists.But if you want to be semi competitive, you probably need to make a few changes.

1. Berzerkers are fun, but they are expensive and fragile. I use plague marines. Cheap isn't really a word I would use to describe them. They are cost effective. The do everything at least well. They are great at survivability. They are toughness 5. 3+ armor. 5+ feel no pain. Get them to a control point, they will probably hold it unless an enemy completely unloads on them. They are good in close combat to. They are tough, and they have poisonous weapons, which will wound any non machine unit on fours regardless of toughness, and you reroll fail to wounds when your strength is greater than or equal to your opponents toughness. Because of they are tough SOB's they are a tarp it unit against monstrous creatures. I tar pitted a Daemon Prince for 3 full turns while the rest of my army tore up everything else. And icing on the cake. Blight grenades.

2. If you do choose to bring plague marines. Your go in to need to bring Typhus or MoN Chaos Lord. Typhus again is fun. But I don't feel he is cost effective. I think your better off bring a Lord with your choice of weapons, MoN (required for plague marines), and sigil of corruption. Not spending a ton of points and the amount mess you up he can do covers his cost easy. If you wanted to keep Kharn and some zerkers. Drop the CSMs. They are supposed to be versatile. But really don't do anything well. I personally don't like bringing two HQs. I don't find them cost effective even in 2000 point games. There is other stuff I'd rather bring which would be more of a pain for my opponents.

3. Unfortunately, here comes the crappy part about chaos. The current Meta is shoot and flyers. For chaos, that means two heldrakes. Even in 1500 points.

4. Drop CSMs. They aren't good. If you want to bring another troop choice. Go with a big ball of cultists. They are cheap and numerous. They are good for holding backfield objectives. Assuming they don't run of course.

5. Like I said. They current Meta is shoot and fly. Mauler fiends are fun. But if you want to be competitive. Bring Obliterators. They are the best Dakka unit in the chaos codex in my opinion. Two wounds 2+ armor 5+ invulnerable. access to las cannons, plasma cannons, twin linked plasma guns, multi-meltas, and assault cannons (for grounding FMCs). A gun for any situation. Bring MoN so they only get instakilled by strength 10 or the D. Two power fists mean they can go head to head with most units if need be. But that isn't recommended. They will get tar pitted. There is debate as to whether to bring them turn one or deep strike. That's personal preference. I'm in the minority that likes them on the board turn one. Their role is to vital to me risk them not showing up or mishapping. Las cannons turn one to blow up threatening armor, or destroying transports so you can feed the troops to your hell turkeys. Also, I know I said this already but it can be stated enough. Bring MoN. Not doing so is asking to be instakilled.

Thanks dude, all pretty good points, and I see what you're saying with all of it. My issue is, it draws too far away from the theme and feel I want. Like I said, I want to keep kharn, zerkers, a raider and a fiend. And you're right, 2 hq is too much, that's why I have nurgle marines rather than plague marines. I've come up with another list. It's a lot more elite, but just might work? Hang on and I'll post it up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Check the first post, I have changed the list...

This is all my opinion. Tips to help your list get a little more competitive.

In my honest opinion. You are spending way too much on upgrades, and don't have a great deal of versatility. I would drop the power fists or lightning claws on all your champions. Go one way or the other. I'd go Lightning claws but that's just me. Power fists are nice but on units that really aren't that tough, I'd rather strike at initiative. Plus you have shred to reroll to wounds and force more saves against 2+. They aren't consistently going to make all of them.

Warp flame gargoyles. Soul blaze is nice. But my opinion on them is the same as my opinion on the black mace. If you are counting on the extra wounds, your in for a long day.

I understand you are going for theme. But one thing you do need to remember is that Nurgle marines aren't plague marines. They don't have poison, stock blight grenades, and most importantly Feel No Pain. I think one problem you will find with that list you have is a lack of versatility. If the dice don't go your way, your in trouble. Berzerkers are fun but they aren't meant to hold points. However, plague marines lose a lot of benefit when they aren't troops and can't hold points. Maybe bring Plagues as troops and Zerkers as elites. You might even want to consider dropping zerkers and using Khorne CSMs.

Finally you might need a back up plan in this list. The only thing that can really clean up mistakes quickly and turn the game in your favor in the Chaos codex are Heldrakes. Consider 1 maybe even 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortunately Chaos fluff doesn't really play in 6th Edition. Hopefully if some of the rumors are true, close combat will be better in 6.5

Anyway, here is a semi fluffy/ semi competitive list I threw together for you. Its not a great list, I did put it together pretty quickly. But at first glance it seems relatively sound. Hopefully it satisfies what you are looking for.

HQ

Chaos Lord (80pts)
Mark of Nurgle, Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon

Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Troops

Chaos Cultists (90pts)
Champion's, 20x Squad models

Khorne Berzerkers (Troops) (222pts)
Icon of Wrath, 7x Khorne Berzerker
Berzerker Champion
Bolt Pistol, CCW
Chaos Rhino
Combi-bolter, Dirge caster, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke launchers

Plague Marines (Troops) (243 pts)
6x Plague Marine, 2x Plasma Gun
Chaos Rhino
Combi-bolter, Dirge caster, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke launchers
Plague Champion
Bolt Pistol, CCW

Fast Attack

* Heldrake (170pts)
Baleflamer
* Heldrake (170pts)
Baleflamer

Heavy Support

* Chaos Predator (120pts)
Autocannon, Dozer blade, Lascannons
* Chaos Predator (120pts)
Autocannon, Dozer blade, Lascannons
* Maulerfiend (125pts)
Magma cutters


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before anyone complains to me about that list I made (this is the internet after all). I was trying to put a list together for him that meet what he was asking for. Sorry dude. Couldn't fit in the raider. You can shave off a Heldrake and Predator but I think you lose a lot with only one turkey. Heldrakes are scary and get unloaded on the second the opponent gets a chance. Running two keeps your strategy intact.

I like the idea, but the Zerkers HAVE to have a raider! I know it's. Points sink, but it's a must)! It's the only way to get them in to combat effectively!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do appreciate the help though, I'll attempt to manipulate the list...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right Serg Rush, Tell me what you think of this...

I lose a rhino and 2 marines, but gain plague instead of normal CSM and add in a pretty tough Lord

1500 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Kharn the Betrayer (1#, 160 pts)
1 Kharn the Betrayer

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 189 pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers + Chainaxe x4
1 Berzerker Champion + Lightning Claw x1

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 189 pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers + Chainaxe x4
1 Berzerker Champion + Lightning Claw x1

Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 235 pts)
1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster

Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 235 pts)
1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend

HQ: Chaos Lord (1#, 145 pts)
1 Chaos Lord + Mark of Nurgle + Lightning Claw x1 + Power Fist x1 + Sigil of Corruption

Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 222 pts)
7 Plague Marines + Plasma gun x2
1 Plague Champion


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Its either that or a single zerker unit in a raider, 2 units of foot plagues and a drake with the fiend and the HQ's...

So what do we think to this last list?

Good looking list! Looks very strong and is going to be very interesting to play against. IMO though I would drop the CL of N and the Plague Marines and add a second Maulerfiend and a Demon Prince of either Khorne with the axe of blind fury OR Nurgle with the black mace, making your list that much more devastating in cqc

I would love to add a second maulerfiend, the issue I have is the bezerkers raiders are HS slots, and that means they take 2 of them up straight away. Unfortunately the zerkers NEED raiders, otherwise they're an absolute point sink. As for the plague marines, I need an objective holder. And they're just about the toughest SOB's in the dex to do that, and the lord is the tax required to make them scoring. He is pretty tough though, and the idea is to stick him with the second zerker squad.

Can he go with the Bezerkers though being a Lord of Nurgle? My brother plays Chaos so I'm only half in the know, apologies if I'm mistaken.

I like the look of the new list you posted. If the lord cannot go with the Bezerkers then I see that as the only issue you need to resolve. Bringing 2 Raiders these days might catch a few people off guard as they might struggle to deal with both, at least until the Bezerkers get out and go wild.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I like the idea, but the Zerkers HAVE to have a raider! I know it's. Points sink, but it's a must)! It's the only way to get them in to combat effectively! Automatically Appended Next Post: I do appreciate the help though, I'll attempt to manipulate the list... Automatically Appended Next Post: Right Serg Rush, Tell me what you think of this... I lose a rhino and 2 marines, but gain plague instead of normal CSM and add in a pretty tough Lord 1500 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster Total Roster Cost: 1500 HQ: Kharn the Betrayer (1#, 160 pts) 1 Kharn the Betrayer Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 189 pts) 7 Khorne Berzerkers + Chainaxe x4 1 Berzerker Champion + Lightning Claw x1 Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 189 pts) 7 Khorne Berzerkers + Chainaxe x4 1 Berzerker Champion + Lightning Claw x1 Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 235 pts) 1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider (1#, 235 pts) 1 Chaos Land Raider + Dirge Caster Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts) 1 Maulerfiend HQ: Chaos Lord (1#, 145 pts) 1 Chaos Lord + Mark of Nurgle + Lightning Claw x1 + Power Fist x1 + Sigil of Corruption Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 222 pts) 7 Plague Marines + Plasma gun x2 1 Plague Champion Automatically Appended Next Post: Its either that or a single zerker unit in a raider, 2 units of foot plagues and a drake with the fiend and the HQ's...

Honestly. You are committing to tabling your opponent with this list. I think bringing two raiders in a 1500 point game is too point draining. I'd drop it would for another plague squad, or a 100 point cultist ball . That will allow you some flexibility at least. You need to put your plague marines ina rhino to get to the objective. shave off one plague marine. I always run a 6 man plus champion (because that's what came in the box) but that's all you need. One more doesn't really add more than an extra body. Attaching your lord can do that even better. Another issue. 1500 points is too low to bring upgrades. lose the chain axes. You want quantity of wounds over quality in this case. You need these points for your plague marines rhino. I would bring melt a bombs on all your characters since you don't really have any anti armor other than your raiders and you shouldn't bring more than one in a 1500 point. Last issue. You have no anti air. An aegis with a quad gun is Chaos's best option. Your going to need to find 100 points in your list for that. If you lose one raider, then you can buy the aegis with a quad gun. Then have your cultist ball operate it while still holding the objective you put in your base.


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Honestly. Losing the second zerker squad and adding a drake will help your list a great deal.

don't count out brutes just yet they are getting a dataslate and it looks like you can squadron them!

How has this list worked for you, and how have you used it?

It's actually worked quite well. So well, even I'm surprised. In pretty much any objective based game I get to place at least one, this is normally where the plague marines camp. Believe it or not, they're ridiculously tough to remove. In the last game they were assaulted by 10 blood angels assault marines, and they not only stood their ground, but won!

The zerkers in the 2 raiders seem to work as an epic shock tactic. Kharn and his 8 rarely struggle to obliterate anything they charge. The nurgle lord and his squad do almost the same, but suffer from a lack of hatred. He is pretty good at dragging characters out and kicking ass. I tend to rush the two raiders and the fiend together at once. The idea is to go for the jugular and then mop up.

I still think spending that much on two raiders isn't sound. But if it is working for you then there is no point in changing it.

Have you gotten both Raiders blown up yet? Like losing them to meltas or tau shooting? How does it work after that? Not being facetious I'm just genuinely interested because I'm trying to make a Land Raider BA list work and I'm always afraid of getting my 250+ point investments blown up.

Khaine's Wrath, and bocatt;
I played a 2x LRaider 2x Berzerker list vs Tau the other day, with a Termie Lord in a blob of cultists and a maulerfiend.
Tau brought one Hammerhead with Longstrike; one-shotted both Land Raiders, I didn't stand a chance after that. Saddest of pandas.

I do agree the chainaxes are superfluous; no good vs MEQ/TEQ, and if you're fighting 4+ Xenos they generally have the shooting to wipe you out once you're out of combat. Let them take their paltry armour saves. Hopefully enough will live to let you stay in combat for the rest of your turn, and emerge covered in gooey victory in THEIR assault phase AFTER they shoot. There is such a thing as "overkill", even in the Blood God's handbook.
Dropping the chainaxes gives you, what, 24pts to play with? That's another whole entire Berzerker. Or most of the way to that Rhino for your Plagues (drop 1 plauge as recommended above, helps you with Rhino and saves you buying a box).

That said, you shouldn't hesitate to bring this list; it's looking good and totally worth taking to the table. You're invested in it, you like the feel, and that's what matters.
Blood for the Blood God!

 bocatt wrote:
Have you gotten both Raiders blown up yet? Like losing them to meltas or tau shooting? How does it work after that? Not being facetious I'm just genuinely interested because I'm trying to make a Land Raider BA list work and I'm always afraid of getting my 250+ point investments blown up.

I've not had them both blown up yet, but I'm sure that will happen. The other day I did have one immobilised on turn one, the other immobilised on turn 3. It was incredibly hard after that as I was facing blood angels, and they have some serious jump infantry speed. Believe it or not, I've found in this instance 6th Ed actually helps! (I know, shocking right?!) but the 2d6 charge range gives them a much better chance. I will say that as they were just immobilised I did manage to pop both his vindicators before they could flatten my now foot troops!

I've played a farsight list, that was very hard. I had to rush them forward and prey! I was lucky that they both survived turn 1 with just crew shaken results. Turn 2 I was close enough for the dirge casters to work, and the zerkers chewed everything in their path. I was lucky though.

As for points spent on lightning claws and chain axes - here's my thought process. Chaos champs HAVE to issue challenges. So I want to give him the best possible chance to win them. A claw shreds 3+ armour and re rolls to wound. As for the axes, against hordes they'll be invaluable!


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Check out my LORD http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/584938.page#6635279

ideally you want a two turn combat (your turn and their turn) then you avoid getting shot immediately after you win. This is one of the berzerkers three main weaknesses that cripple them. That's where chain axes become an issue. against four up armor. Weakness 1.Your berzerkers with chain axes become too effective.weakness 2. they are fragile and will get killed in your opponents next shooting phaze. cutting the chain axes allows you a better chance of survival actually. if your opponent runs and you get shot. its less painful because you saved points. Weakness 3. price

They are pricey, but they're what I have to work with. I'm thinking about building a nurgle list too...you'll probably approve of that one more!

Just do what works for you. Its most important that you think its fun to play. I'm just giving you advice to make it more competitive.

Everybody wants to run kharn with berserkers, but a blob of cultists is way better. They are much cheaper, and are still good in cc with kharn's hatred.

 herpguy wrote:
Everybody wants to run kharn with berserkers, but a blob of cultists is way better. They are much cheaper, and are still good in cc with kharn's hatred.

Lol. Cultists are so under rated I love doing Khorne cultists. 100 attacks survive them all I dare you. I always bring a 20-25 man cultist ball. I use them mostly for securing back line objectives behind my aegis line, or securing the relic. But a the cultist ball of Khorney death is hilarious in purge.

Do you still think that 1 land raider is enough to remain competative?

Serg Rush wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Everybody wants to run kharn with berserkers, but a blob of cultists is way better. They are much cheaper, and are still good in cc with kharn's hatred.

Lol. Cultists are so under rated I love doing Khorne cultists. 100 attacks survive them all I dare you. I always bring a 20-25 man cultist ball. I use them mostly for securing back line objectives behind my aegis line, or securing the relic. But a the cultist ball of Khorney death is hilarious in purge.

How easy do you think it would be to kill 35 cultists footing it up the board? I could do it in a single turn without even using all my shooting. Killing a land raider and 10 space marines? Not nearly as easy unless you bring the specific gear to do that.

I'm not saying you can't run him with cultists, just that you better have a ton of distractions on the board to draw fire from them because they are glass men in a rodeo

I still think that for a predominantly Khorne lst you need two land raiders, so why wouldnt you put him in one?!

Its cheaper to run CSM w/ CCW,MoK and Icon that Berserkers. You are putting Kharn with them anyways so they will be fearless. all you lose in reality is WS5 down to WS4. Save some points.

 changerofways wrote:

Serg Rush wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Everybody wants to run kharn with berserkers, but a blob of cultists is way better. They are much cheaper, and are still good in cc with kharn's hatred.

Lol. Cultists are so under rated I love doing Khorne cultists. 100 attacks survive them all I dare you. I always bring a 20-25 man cultist ball. I use them mostly for securing back line objectives behind my aegis line, or securing the relic. But a the cultist ball of Khorney death is hilarious in purge.

How easy do you think it would be to kill 35 cultists footing it up the board? I could do it in a single turn without even using all my shooting. Killing a land raider and 10 space marines? Not nearly as easy unless you bring the specific gear to do that.

I'm not saying you can't run him with cultists, just that you better have a ton of distractions on the board to draw fire from them because they are glass men in a rodeo

I do have plenty of distractions. Cultists are never targeted until it is too late. and I only use them on suicide charge on purge the alien.