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I just finished the incredible story of the HH book The Thousand Sons, and I was really moved by the burning of Prospero.

I think it was just the full realisation of seeing the savage ferocity that the Wolves were using against his sons and his World. Personally I think his original intention was less about dying rather than turn to Chaos, and more about allowing the Wolves to win so that the Emperor would not lose another Loyal Legion in the coming fight against Horus. I actually think that his plan was stupid. Magnus should have left his Orbital defenses in places, to present a real fight. Then negotiated with Russ and agreed to go back to Terra. Once the Wolves were unleashed on Prospero, it was too late for words. Or better still, he should have mounted up the entire Legion after his failed attempt at warning the Emperor and made full speed for Terra.

As to your second question, I have far more respect for Ahrihman because he stuck to his principles throughout. He saw how the trial at Nikea was going to be a farce, that the Imperium was not as enlightened as it claimed, and did what he had to save his Legion. You cannot blame him for over ruling his Primarch, when Magnus' last command saw their home world razed and most of the Legion dead. Ahriman took the Pragmatic approach, he sacrificed many to save the few, knowing it was a choice between that and the death of the Legion. The fact that he still leads them 10k years into the future shows the measure of his success, seeing as Prospero should have been the graveyard for the Thousand Sons.

Magnus was an arrogant, self-centred, whiny moron.

I don't like him after reading A Thousand Sons. At all. He basically said, "Oops! My bad!" then went to cry in a corner and wait for the world to go away, "Oh, woe is me, I'm a bad person, I deserve to die... and so do all of my people... and everyone I've ever sworn to protect or claimed to love... because I deserve to watch them die as penance for what I've done..."

It's impossible to respect someone like that. What Magnus should have done is met Russ at the edge of the system and turned himself in.

No, actually. What Magnus really should have done is assumed that the Emperor had a fething clue when he said "Don't touch this stuff."

Of course, the Emperor should never have bowed to popular opinion and told Magnus to stop in the first place. If Nikea hadn't told Magnus to stop using his powers completely and give up his entire purpose for existing, he would have never attempted to carry the message psychically himself in the first place, since he only did that to prove that his powers were useful and safe.

Ahriman I can respect. Ahriman did every damn thing he could to protect the Prosperine, and he didn't even grow up there. Ahriman knew his job. Ahriman respected his commanders until they proved that they were not worth of respect. Ahriman tried to bring enlightenment and understanding to those who sought it out.

The only thing Ahriman is guilty of is failing to realise Wyrdmake was a two-faced turtle egg. Even the Rubric was at least an owned and concious decision to at least try to save what he could.

Would Magnus turning himself in stop the Wolves from razing Prospero, I guess it probably would, but I guess they would have at least occupied the Sons homeworld to make sure they don't try any funny business. Either that or march the whole Legion back to Terra.

I thought Magnus purpose was to lead a Legion in the Great Crusade, reuniting mankind and its lost brethren

It was all part of the Emperors plan to get Magnus on the Throne anyway.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It was all part of the Emperors plan to get Magnus on the Throne anyway.

I tend to agree but I wonder ... is sitting the throne so bad? We don't know anything about the Emperor's experience, short of what Jaq Draco witnessed (which very plausibly was a lie/illusion). Perhaps there is no way Magnus would have done this willingly and only would have accepted such a fate as penance. But there are a lot of assumptions necessary to conclude as much.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It was all part of the Emperors plan to get Magnus on the Throne anyway.

I tend to agree but I wonder ... is sitting the throne so bad? We don't know anything about the Emperor's experience, short of what Jaq Draco witnessed (which very plausibly was a lie/illusion). Perhaps there is no way Magnus would have done this willingly and only would have accepted such a fate as penance. But there are a lot of assumptions necessary to conclude as much.

If the Vision shown to Magnus with him sitting on the Throne is anything to go by then possibly.

We know what it did to Malcador, I guess the effect would be the same on Magnus but over a vastly greater period, him being a Primarch filled with warpy goodness and all. But then It might never have any adverse affect on him. It's maybe not a case of him being confined to the Throne which is the punishment, but his Sons being left to their own devices and risking being lost to the flesh change.

The Emperor made several massive mistakes in this scenario (he made many others, but let's focus on this event).

It's pretty much established that the Primarchs all have the temperaments of teenagers. They had their petty rivalries and their daddy issues, and so on (he let them form their politics, much of which determined their allegiances when the Heresy happened). With Magnus, though, the Emperor made one of the biggest mistakes a parent can make by forbidding his son from using his special talent, but without telling him why, a reoccurring theme with the Big E. If he had explained the nature of Chaos and the delicate work he was doing (he basically just vanished and left Horus in charge, which led to a lot of bitterness/resentment from his immature sons who basically threw a fit because they thought daddy didn't love them anymore), Magnus wouldn't have had these issues.

However, the biggest blunder has to be this. When Magnus contacted the Emperor to warn him of Horus' betrayal, the Emperor's response was basically "I know! And you messed up my important work by contacting me!". If the Emperor already knew, why didn't he tell his sons? Russ wouldn't have listened to Horus if the Emperor had bothered to say "Oh yeah, your big brother is evil". Of course, this whole thing would have been prevented if he hadn't have been such a huge dick to Lorgar by humiliating him and opening him up to the wiles of Chaos.

EDIT: The throne wasn't going to be bad. It was only after Magnus ruined it that it became so horrible.

If the Emperor's plan had worked, surely no one would have needed to sit on the Golden Throne? He planned to open the webway to eliminate the need for Warp Travel, and thus humanity's dependance on Chaos.

It is however an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before. Perhaps the real reason for Unleashing the Wolves was to get Magnus back to Terra to man the throne while the Emperor fixed the webway breach. However the usual, secrecy, mis-comunication and outside agendas (Horus)
Screwed up the execution of the plan. For all Magnus's flaws, the Emp is a total utter moron for not at least investigating to see if his Proxy was on the verge of rebellion. And even more so for unleashing the Wolves against one of his most Loyal (albeit mis-lead) Legions at a time of potential crisis.

I dunno, if I had a choice between a siegemaster and a dog, when I wanted something fetching, I'd send the dog too.

He was obviously in psychic communication with Magnus, if only briefly (enough to berate him for his actions). Why didn't he just tell Magnus to come to Terra before he hung up the psychic phone? He would have!

He always was too busy for his sons.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

However, the biggest blunder has to be this. When Magnus contacted the Emperor to warn him of Horus' betrayal, the Emperor's response was basically "I know! And you messed up my important work by contacting me!". If the Emperor already knew, why didn't he tell his sons? Russ wouldn't have listened to Horus if the Emperor had bothered to say "Oh yeah, your big brother is evil". Of course, this whole thing would have been prevented if he hadn't have been such a huge dick to Lorgar by humiliating him and opening him up to the wiles of Chaos.
.

Hmm, not sure if he knew or not, as I understand it he couldn't believe what Magnus was going on about and suspected Magnus of being the traitor, not Horus.

But then if Lorgar would have done what he was supposed to be doing then none of this would have happened

The Emperors mantra is do as I say, not do as you please. The Emperor did make many mistakes and a lot of assumptions.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
He was obviously in psychic communication with Magnus, if only briefly (enough to berate him for his actions). Why didn't he just tell Magnus to come to Terra before he hung up the psychic phone? He would have!

Did he listen to the Emperor when he had said, no more psychic powers sonny .. nope ..

Yeah, but he had a reason for doing it - Horus was starting up a civil war. That's pretty huge news. For all Magnus knew, doing what the Emperor had ordered and not using his powers would have allowed, well, the Horus Heresy to happen. For all Magnus knew, breaking his father's orders was preventing this huge war from happening. I think it was less Magnus just disobeying and more Magnus going "Look dad, I know you said I shouldn't use my powers but this is really, really important".

EDIT: It's like if a father forbade his teenage son from using his phone for a week, because of something he did. But then the son's mother gets horribly injured, and the son calls for an ambulance and then calls his dad to tell him that his wife is in hospital. "No son I told you to not use your phone! I'll send your big brother to come beat you up! Grrr!"

Yeah, that was my take, except he told himself it was more urgent than it was so he had an excuse to use the powers.

And the Emperor had a reason for saying no more psychic powers



But Magnus and his loyalty was already in doubt due to his use of sorcery. Contacting the Emperor the way he did is probably one of the dumbest things in the heresy series. It took two Legions which could have been used at Istvaan out of the picture.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

EDIT: It's like if a father forbade his teenage son from using his phone for a week, because of something he did. But then the son's mother gets horribly injured, and the son calls for an ambulance and then calls his dad to tell him that his wife is in hospital. "No son I told you to not use your phone! I'll send your big brother to come beat you up! Grrr!"

I get that and I can relate, but this is the Emperor of the Imperium and his word is law. Also, it's not like there weren't other methods that Magnus could have chosen to get the message across. It was a poor choice made by Magnus, honestly I don't believe reliability or time were anything that he really considered, it was an attempt to show his father the good that sorcery can do. Way to go Magnus

The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.

That and his use of Sorcery, yeah.

Yes. Also, The Emperor had his reasons, but he didn't tell them to Magnus! One of the most important parts of discipline is respect/understanding. The Emperor didn't sit Magnus down and explain why he couldn't use his powers, he just basically said "NO I AM THE EMPEROR YOU'LL DO WHAT I SAY", which is never cool.

Magnus tried his best to do what was right for his men. Years prior he made a blind deal with an entity he didnt know to save his sons from mutation. In the end he tried to warn the emperor and tried his best to stop Horus, but with simply to many strikes and other Primarchs against him, all the good he tried to do was still looked upon as wrong.

Remember he was Chaos first choice to corrupt but he was to powerful, he was able to easily defeat Demons, where Horus could not. Horus was manipulated and later turned to the dark side. But it was Horus ultimate plan to Have Russ and Magnus out of the way fighting their own spat. It clearly states in the books that Russ was the only physical being that could of stopped Horus/Chaos and Magnus was so powerful with the Ether that he could of stopped them also. Hence Horus manipulated the situation to have Russ attack Magnus and get them out of the main fight on Istvan.

In the end, Spacewolves legion, sisters of silence and custodians attacked prospero and ultimately failed at the destruction of 1000 sons. Magnus was ready to accept the fate but in the end came out and fought Russ. Stabbing Russ pretty bad until Russ planted a lucky shot to Magnus good eye. As you know this was all a rouse to buy Ahriman time to finish the incantation to swiftly remove his brothers from Prospero.

By default and the fact the winners write the history books, Magnus was a traitor legion and has been known as such since. But we all know the truth!

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.

That and his use of Sorcery, yeah.

Define 'Sorcery' for me, as separate from 'Approved psionics', please.

The Wolves' "not really psychic powers honest!" is far more sorcerous than Magnus' Ennumerations.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Yes. Also, The Emperor had his reasons, but he didn't tell them to Magnus! One of the most important parts of discipline is respect/understanding. The Emperor didn't sit Magnus down and explain why he couldn't use his powers, he just basically said "NO I AM THE EMPEROR YOU'LL DO WHAT I SAY", which is never cool.

No, it's not, but he is the Emperor and the Primarchs aren't just his Sons, they are also the commanders of his armies and he their leader.

A little sketchy on Thousand Sons as I haven't read it for many moons, but when Magnus is saying about his trips in the Warp with his father, doesn't he mention that the Emperor explained about the dwellers in the warp and their nature, saying to be wary of it? It might not have been a full indepth do's and don'ts on interaction with the Warp but he did give some information away about it. We as the reader know that it was not nearly enough.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.

That and his use of Sorcery, yeah.

Define 'Sorcery' for me, as separate from 'Approved psionics', please.

The Wolves' "not really psychic powers honest!" is far more sorcerous than Magnus' Ennumerations.

Oh yeah totally, that whole 'our powers come from Fenris' is a load of garbage and how the Wolves are allowed to get away with it is beyond me. But we're not talking about the Wolves here. But I think a big difference is that the Wolves didn't enter in to pacts with the Warps denizens like the Sons did with their Tutelaries.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


No, it's not, but he is the Emperor and the Primarchs aren't just his Sons, they are also the commanders of his armies and he their leader.

Which only gives him even more reason to guide them carefully! Most bad parents don't have the Horus Heresy and their imprisonment on the Golden Throne as consequence.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

A little sketchy on Thousand Sons as I haven't read it for many moons, but when Magnus is saying about his trips in the Warp with his father, doesn't he mention that the Emperor explained about the dwellers in the warp and their nature, saying to be wary of it? It might not have been a full indepth do's and don'ts on interaction with the Warp but he did give some information away about it. We as the reader know that it was not nearly enough.

I haven't read the book, but knowing the Emperor's unnecessary secrecy, probably not. He was so massively determined to keep Chaos a secret (for no reason) that I don't think he would have given Magnus any useful information on the topic.

EDIT: Speaking of that Fenris nonsense, how much worse do you think that made it for Magnus? "Hey, Magnus, I know that you and your Legion are totally into sorcery and all... but no, stop. I'm the Emperor and I say so. Oh but that brother I know you have a rivalry with? His guys can still do it because of some nonsense, and they don't even really like doing it."

The Emperor basically said "Be very, very careful when dealing with the creatures of the Warp".

Which Magnus then said to the Thousand Sons he taught: "Be very, very careful with the creatures of the Warp."

And thus, the psykers of the Thousand Sons were very, very careful with the creatures of the warp, always making sure to bind them correctly and make no promises. They were not prepared to deal with the idea that at any moment, a Tutelary (a very, very minor daemon with no real power) could spontaneously become a Lord of Change because Tzeentch said "I want that one!" and thus break all of their bindings and bargains with a shrug.

Anyway, "Forging a bond with the spirit of Fenris" sure sounds like making a deal with a daemon to me, given that souls are warp entities and a planet's soul would have to be a warp entity as a result, and a powerful self-aware soul is called a daemon...

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Which only gives him even more reason to guide them carefully! Most bad parents don't have the Horus Heresy and their imprisonment on the Golden Throne as consequence.

Yeah, what can you do though. He didn't really use his powers of foresight to their potential did he. I think some of it as well is the Primarchs upbringing on their respective homeworlds, he didn't necessarily get the chance to bring them up the way he had intended.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

I haven't read the book, but knowing the Emperor's unnecessary secrecy, probably not. He was so massively determined to keep Chaos a secret (for no reason) that I don't think he would have given Magnus any useful information on the topic.

I think he had his reasons for keeping Chaos a secret.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

And thus, the psykers of the Thousand Sons were very, very careful with the creatures of the warp, always making sure to bind them correctly and make no promises. They were not prepared to deal with the idea that at any moment, a Tutelary (a very, very minor daemon with no real power) could spontaneously become a Lord of Change because Tzeentch said "I want that one!" and thus break all of their bindings and bargains with a shrug.

No, but they could possess their masters and take over Titans causing massive asplosions. It doesn't really matter how minor the Daemon was, they were still making deals with chaos. Look at the deal Magnus himself made.

I don't think the bond between Fenris is anything other then them being born of Fenris, but your guess is as good as mine.

According to the wiki, of which the article is based on the book, the Emperor DID tell Magnus about Chaos (and only Magnus, because Emps realized that with Magus's psychic powers there was really no avoiding it). However, I dunno what amount of detail he gave to Magnus about it. The wiki just says he "showed the truth of the warp" to Magnus, and Magnus feigned (pretended) shock and horror in response.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Define 'Sorcery' for me, as separate from 'Approved psionics', please.

As far as Magnus's story goes, this is a red herring. Nikaea dealt with Librarians not psykers generally.

Because all of the Space Marine psykers were Librarians, it dealt with all of the psykers who mattered at the time. The Wolves got off the hook because "something reasons something Fenris".

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
all of the Space Marine psykers were Librarians

That's incorrect. The Librarius Department was something specific. The SW, for example, did not have one and no SW were librarians.

Yes, but that's a blatant lie based on the blatant lie that there were no SW psykers.

Again, Nikaea was not about psykers.

No one ever said the SW did not have psykers.