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That some BL writer differs is their prerogative, there's been enough of the "old fluff" changed in the HH novel series to allow me to discard most of them as hacks with no respect for the previously-established lore of the setting.

I suppose we'll see what Alan Bligh writes in the FW on the matter. No one can accuse him of lacking respect for what's come before.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The better question is what the hell is going on with the "there are no wolves in fenris" bit.

It's Magnus take on this thread, basically. The Wolves of Fenris aren't really wolves - either they're a native fauna with similar taxonomy, or so mutated from the dogs brought by the original human settlers that they're basically a different species.

Uh I think it's actually a somewhat sardonic reference to the instability of the Canis Helix or at least some problematic (horrific) genetic engineering among the first human colonists of Fenris.

To my mind the Edict of Nikea was to ban the various Libarius Departments within the legions. I believe the emperor as a political animal purposely left the space wolves out. It was out right said that the space wolves were his executioners and had sanctioned legions prior to the Heresy. It makes sense that by leaving them wriggle room within the edict that he was purposely giving them leeway and giving them an advantage over other legions that they would be expected to sanction.

 Imperious wrote:
had sanctioned legions prior to the Heresy

What do you mean?

He means the Space Wolves were used previously to sanction one of the two missing legions.


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 Psienesis wrote:
They are as sorcerous as the Thousand Sons, they just have a better PR department.

No, Wyrdmake (spelling?) is talking to Ahriman and he does mention how they (the run priests) have more respect for what they learn and more discipline and self control on what they do. This makes them look weak to the Thousanx Sons but it does prevent them from being viewed as sourcerous and corrupt.

Regardless of the psycher rule, Magnus's actions don't make any sense.

1) He knows the Wolves are coming to destroy them, but hides that fact from his people so they are defenseless.

2) He states they deserve the coming fire.

3) He doesn't help when the Wolves are tearing up the place.

Then he suddenly turns around and saves everyone he can and becomes a demon prince, but plays coy the rest of the heresy and doesn't overtly do much.

Why didn't he put all his troops in stasis and head to Terra? That would have preserved them, and given him a chance to atone and beg the emperor's aid in saving them from the curse of instability.

If the emperor refused, he lost nothing. If the emperor assented, then he gained aid against Tzeench. Russ stated that he wanted to take Magnus alive and didn't want to burn down the planet.

Or why didn't he take his legion into space and have an orbital conflict?
There were several actions he had the time to make which would have preserved the knowledge collected on Prospero, and possibly himself and his legion that did not require turning to chaos. Yet Magnus makes no effort to avail himself of any.

Was he that bummed out by his failure?

No, Wyrdmake (spelling?) is talking to Ahriman and he does mention how they (the run priests) have more respect for what they learn and more discipline and self control on what they do. This makes them look weak to the Thousanx Sons but it does prevent them from being viewed as sourcerous and corrupt.

Like I said, better PR.

Respecting boundaries is not just a matter of PR.

Durandal wrote:


Was he that bummed out by his failure?

Yep. Prospero burned because Magnus was literally too busy sulking over the fact his grand plan to prove his worth blew up in his face.

The Fenrisians don't respect boundaries though. They certainly don't respect such things as honour and friendship.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Fenrisians don't respect boundaries though. They certainly don't respect such things as honour and friendship.

You're letting opinions cloud facts. There are certain lines that SW will not cross when it comes to the Warp, which was never true of Magnus or his sons. Whether the SW are dishonorable is unrelated.

I don't know where this notion came from that the Thousand Sons were all unchained psykers, going around abusing the warp for their own gain. Each one was trained in one specific art, which they would master overtime, increasing their mastery and control of said powers until they could move on to the next level. More so than a lot of legions, they were aware of what would happen to an unprotected mind in the warp. There only real downfall was believing that the warp entities were smart enough to manipulate them.

They only really lost control at the Burning of Prospero, and that was out of desperation. There whole world was being burned so discipline went out the window and the anguish of such devastation caused them to tap into power that a lot of them couldn't handle.

To say that the Rune Priests are an exception because they knew there were lines that shouldn't be crossed is simply wrong. The Space Wolves have an eskewed understanding of their powers, believing they are natural because in the traditions of Fenris, psychic power is considered to come from the world itself, not from the warp. This view is shown to be categorically false by Ahriman In "A Thousand Sons" who can view Wyrdmake as a warp presence, It is also revelealed that the "Wolves" that follow the Space Wolves are just as warp touched as the Tutelary creatures that the Sons use as familiars.

The powers they used were not considered Sorcery until the Decree was brought it. Sorcery is simply a superstitious and inflammatory word for psychic powers. We don't consider 40k Librarians "Sorcerers" and yet they were still damned as such by the Decree.

(1) Contrary to the SW, Magnus believed that the only limits were talent and ignorance.

(2) The TS lost control long before Prospero fell. Actually, one of the most important themes of the TS is that they never had control (e.g., flesh change). What happened at Prospero is that one-eyed Magnus finally glimpsed how he had been manipulated by Tzeentch all along.

(3) The method of accessing psychic power used by the Rune Priests is fundamentally different than Librarians generally and TS Librarians specifically. Magnus was too arrogant and offended to consider that this so-called "superstition" was actually a cover for something very real and sophisticated, which is the most important theme about the SW in Abnett's Prospero Burns.

(4) The "tutelaries" are daemons pure and simple, not just "warp touched" (whatever that is supposed to mean) animals.

(5) Post-Heresy chapter Libarians are irrelevant to this discussion because (a) they are not covered by Nikaea and (b) we cannot at this time know how similar or different they were from the warrirors of the Pre-Heresy legionary Libarius Departments.

(6) "Sorcery" is not a prejudicial synonym for psychic powers generally. Astropaths and navigators are never called sorcerers. The Emperor used the word "sorcery" at Nikaea in a very particular way, to refer to the Libarius method of accessing psychic power (which was principally but not only laid out by Magnus).

 Manchu wrote:
(1) Contrary to the SW, Magnus believed that the only limits were talent and ignorance.


(2) The TS lost control long before Prospero fell. Actually, one of the most important themes of the TS is that they never had control (e.g., flesh change). What happened at Prospero is that one-eyed Magnus finally glimpsed how he had been manipulated by Tzeentch all along.

(3) The method of accessing psychic power used by the Rune Priests is fundamentally different than Librarians generally and TS Librarians specifically. Magnus was too arrogant and offended to consider that this so-called "superstition" was actually a cover for something very real and sophisticated, which is the most important theme about the SW in Abnett's Prospero Burns.

(4) The "tutelaries" are daemons pure and simple, not just "warp touched" (whatever that is supposed to mean) animals.

(5) Post-Heresy chapter Libarians are irrelevant to this discussion because (a) they are not covered by Nikaea and (b) we cannot at this time know how similar or different they were from the warrirors of the Pre-Heresy legionary Libarius Departments.

(6) "Sorcery" is not a prejudicial synonym for psychic powers generally. Astropaths and navigators are never called sorcerers. The Emperor used the word "sorcery" at Nikaea in a very particular way, to refer to the Libarius method of accessing psychic power (which was principally but not only laid out by Magnus).

1. That doesn't mean that the SW weren't guitly of that ignorance, I don't remember where it says the Rune priests imited their powers, they seemed to use pretty powerful powers themselves. Magnus himself may have been guilty of hubris, but he was the second greatest psyker in the galaxy and a Primarch, almost all of the Primarchs were arrogant in their abilities to some degree.

2. They did have control of their powers, they just weren't aware of the bargain Magnus made and that one day Tzeentch would call in that favour. The unchained energies during the battle for Prospero allowed Tzeentch to play his Ace in the hole and pour power into the TS that they couldn't control. Not all of them lost control this way and many survived the battle without succumbing to the Flesh change long enough for the Rubric to save some of them.

3. How is it different? Aside from SW propaganda and hyperbole, we have no measurable means of knowing how they access their powers. Every psyker in the galaxy draws their power from the warp and we are supposed to belive the SW. Why? Because they said so.

4. I'll concede that one, but by that logic, the Wolves were still hinted to be some kind of warp related creatures. Perhaps in the same vein as the beasts of Caliban.

5. From almost all writing so far it seems fair to assume that 40k's librarians are the same as their Pre-Heresy counterparts. The Emperor never withdrew the decree, Guilliman, The Lion and Corax (possibly others) all simply decided that for the sake of Pragmatism they should reinstate the best chance they had of fighting the newly emerged forces of Chaos.

6. Yes it is. The reason that Astropaths and Navigators were left out was A) because the Imperium cannot function without them, and B) because Astropaths have a very specific mutation that doesn't leave them to become unbound psychopaths and Astropaths are soul bound already. It's hypocrasy, plain and simple. In the same way that the Bible states that "Thou Shalt not kill" and yet every religious war leader in History has picked and chosen when that applies, most commonly during wars they wish to fight which obviously rely on the assumption that they can kill their enemies.

(1) This is a point about Magnus and the TS. Comments about the SW or any other legion are irrelevant to the fact that Magnus saw no necessary limitation to his use of psychic power.

(2) Magnus and the TS did not understand their power. It therefore impossible that they had it under control at any point. Rather, they arrogantly assumed. If someone doesn't understand this, they cannot understand the tragedy of the TS.

(3) It is clearly different. Most obviously, the SW do not summon and bind themselves to daemons.

(4) Keep in mind, (almost all) humans are also "warp-touched" by a very broad definition.

(5) At Nikaea, the Emperor banned legionary Librarius Departments. Chapters were never covered. And as I said, we have no evidence -- just an assumption based on the name -- that Chapter Libarians employ the "Magnus method." In fact, Chapter Librarians generally seem a lot more careful than the TS ever were.

(6) I posted the direct quote from A Thousand sons as to what the Emperor said at Nikaea.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!)

Well that's not true at all. He was one of the last traitors to turn to Chaos.


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 Manchu wrote:
Again, Nikaea was not about psykers.

No one ever said the SW did not have psykers.

The Space Wolves did. Repeatedly, actually. They lied right to the Blood Angels' faces about it, for example.


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 Manchu wrote:
Whatever the SW say about themselves, they were exempt from Nikaea because they did not maintain a Libarius department or have Librarians and NOT because of their beliefs about Fenris. As far as I know, no one but they themselves acknowledge their Fenris mythology.

It's called a loophole.

Adhering to the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

There is not much difference between an Ultramarine Librarian and a Rune Priest.


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 Manchu wrote:
It's not just a matter of what they were called.

The Librarians were trained to use their psychic powers according to a method devised by Jaghatai, Sanguinius, and most of all Magnus. This method is what the Emperor shut down at Nikaea.

A Rune Priest is not simply a SW Librarian.

So what you're saying is that everyone else should have gotten around the Decree by retraining their psykers in a different way? Good point.


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 Wyzilla wrote:
The better question is what the hell is going on with the "there are no wolves in fenris" bit.

Space Wolves ride on top of each other's backs.


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 Manchu wrote:
You're letting opinions cloud facts. There are certain lines that SW will not cross when it comes to the Warp, which was never true of Magnus or his sons. Whether the SW are dishonorable is unrelated.

I suppose you missed the entire point of the Enumerations then.

Magnus thought he, specifically, had no boundaries, but he advised his sons to be mindful of their own limits.


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 Psienesis wrote:
That some BL writer differs is their prerogative, there's been enough of the "old fluff" changed in the HH novel series to allow me to discard most of them as hacks with no respect for the previously-established lore of the setting.

Or maybe you just don't know what you're talking about?

The Space Wolves do not practice sorcery as it has ever been defined when made distinct from normal psychic power (Which is to say, excluding sources that posit both are one and the same, but that's long out of date by now).


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 Manchu wrote:
Rather, they arrogantly assumed. If someone doesn't understand this, they cannot understand the tragedy of the TS.

That one man's hubris damned ten thousand loyal warriors?

No I think we understand that just fine. I'm not sure you do, though.

Russ poses as a savage and organized his Legion to do the same. It appears this deceives many readers. Incidentally, it seems the Lion eventually saw through it.

Characterizing the letter of Nikaea as a loophole implies the Emperor did not choose his words carefully enough. Such arrogance is worthy of Magnus himself.

The Enumerations are nothing more than a pitiful superstition, woven in the willing mind of the Cyclops by Tzeentch. They guaranteed nothing except a false sense of safety and mastery that lulled the Thousand Sons into doom. The delusion that Magnus taught his sons anything of limitations was shattered by Ahriman's Rubric, whereupon Tzeentch laughed in the face of Magnus's anguish.

If loyalty is only a matter of intention, then Magnus and his sons have a good case. Unfortunately, Chaos does not require consent. The Thousand Sons surely did not intend to turn from the Emperor. They were victims of the Changer of Ways, of the Space Wolves, possibly of the Emperor himself. But more than anything, they were the victims of their Primarch.

"The Enumerations are nothing more than a pitiful superstition"

You're just inventing your own fluff now...

As to the thread topic I think Magnus actions make sense in a way. His actions appear to do a 180 because, well, they do. He accepts their impending doom. He doesn't want it to be drawn out, its an execution not a fight, so he doesn't warn the planet. At the same time you can't really expect the marines to not fight at all so you can't just have them all lay down. As Magnus watches his world burning and his sons being broken he can't take it anymore. His resolve to suffer his punishment wavers and he instead saves the remaining astartes.

Not really. The Enumerations ultimately had as much value as carrying around a four leaf clover except people who do that are less deluded than the TS.

I agree with you that Magnus changed his mind during the battle, however.

The Enumerations are basically just levels of mediation. A clear and purposed mind being paramount when controlling psychic powers I feel is evident throughout the fluff. It is also shown to be very useful throughout the TSons book. The widespread overreaching of powers didn't happen at all until the burning of prospero, when the legion was dying. If I recall, the flesh-change wasn't rampant either until moving to daemon world in the warp.

I also don't believe there is a distinction between Librarius departments and astartes psykers. They are one in the same. Humans, including astartes can develop psychic powers. The librarius was developed to label and govern pyskers and teach them rather than just let it go naturally. It is not any specific training method developed by Magnus, just the idea of official incorporation of psykers into the legions. That's why legions had their own librarius departments and not sent to Prospero for training like tech marines are sent to Mars.

SW didn't create a librarius because they already had one built in as shamanism. Its literally the same thing just a different name. The Emperor has to know this. Therefore, he must have let it slide. Its also not uncommon for the Emperor's actions to be nonsensical or unmotivated in the fluff. He's the most poorly written (when written at all) part of the whole setting and almost all major problems can be traced back to his inexplicable behaviors.

Taking a line from the council of Nikea isn't really helpful as it went on for a very long time and we are not given that much dialogue about it. If he was just banning librarius use of psykers there's literally no reason for all the many instances of psykers holding back their powers once the librarius is dissolved.

The flesh change was merely forestalled. Similarly, the TS were able to "control" their power for as long as Tzeentch allowed.

They were and are just pawns of Tzeentch, thanks to Magnus.

The decree doesn't exist outside of what we know ... because this is a fictional story and the decree is nothing more than a plot device in that story. And as a plot device, it can only mean what it says -- and not what it doesn't say, such as something about SM psykers outside of Librarius Departments.

As to a Chapter Librarian and Legion Librarian, whether they are the same or different is pure conjecture.


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JubbJubbz wrote:
If he was just banning librarius use of psykers there's literally no reason for all the many instances of psykers holding back their powers once the librarius is dissolved.

There is absolute reason (the decree of the Emperor) for, say, a Blood Angel to hold back. But the decree does not cover SW, so a Rune Priest would not need to hold back. There is a scene V_D is fond of quoting to this effect.

When the Great Company's Rune Priest dies, Prospero Burns says "There were several men in Tra who were alleged to have the sight like Longfang."

Void__Dragon wrote:There is not much difference between an Ultramarine Librarian and a Rune Priest.

There is not remotely enough information about either of those things to say that.

Manchu wrote: V_D

ahh haha.

But you know, this argument is not like saying that Ho Chih Minh would never have become a communist if President Wilson had been nicer to him. You can't talk about what if scenarios, because this entire thing is a what if scenario. The setting is subject to, and is the product of, some basic principle of god damn literary theory.

Angron and the World Eaters were always chaotic. Horus and the Luna Wolves were always chaotic. Slaanesh always existed, and the Emperor was always a god. The Thousand Sons were always chaotic, and the burning of prospero was just an exposition thereof.

 Manchu wrote:
Russ poses as a savage and organized his Legion to do the same. It appears this deceives many readers. Incidentally, it seems the Lion eventually saw through it.

Point?

Characterizing the letter of Nikaea as a loophole implies the Emperor did not choose his words carefully enough. Such arrogance is worthy of Magnus himself.

Or maybe we can look at history and conclude the Emperor is an idiot who makes bad decisions. Because historically, that is the interpretation that is supported best.

The Enumerations are nothing more than a pitiful superstition, woven in the willing mind of the Cyclops by Tzeentch. They guaranteed nothing except a false sense of safety and mastery that lulled the Thousand Sons into doom. The delusion that Magnus taught his sons anything of limitations was shattered by Ahriman's Rubric, whereupon Tzeentch laughed in the face of Magnus's anguish.

A. Prove the Enumerations were a superstition.

B. Your claim was that the TS had no lines they would not cross, that the Enumerations even existed was proof that they were taught to be mindful of their limits and rein in their powers to keep them under control. Instead of feebly trying to squirm your way into a new argument entirely, just admit you were wrong.

C. The Rubric has no relevance to anything at all that has been discussed.

If loyalty is only a matter of intention, then Magnus and his sons have a good case. Unfortunately, Chaos does not require consent.

"Oh well Chaos forced them to rebel", uh, yeah, sure man. That doesn't change any of my points.

The Thousand Sons surely did not intend to turn from the Emperor. They were victims of the Changer of Ways, of the Space Wolves, possibly of the Emperor himself. But more than anything, they were the victims of their Primarch.

I'm glad I managed to convince you.


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pelicaniforce wrote:


There is not remotely enough information about either of those things to say that.

Neither one do anything like make pacts with Daemons and we see in Fear to Tread that Rune Priests have knowledge of the types of psychic rituals they can conduct and can indeed aid them in this endeavor.

There is very little difference based on the actual fluff. Any assertion that there is is backed by less evidence than the opposite.

to get into this conversation. I personally really like/d Magnus, although I have only read the first 5 heresy novels. The 1000 suns only turned traitor to escape being the victims of Horus' dogs, sorry the emperor's dogs. I still fancy that around the galaxamy there are still pockets of loyalist thousand suns.

I used to really like Magnus in the setting, until Black Library started 'fleshing him out'

Now he's an insuffereable whinger, every time he shows up he is decidedly underwhelming (struggles even to defeat WolfGuard in Battle of the Fang), he completely squanders his entire legion not once, but TWICE. He theoretically has the power to do just about anything, and what does he choose to do with it? Nothing at all.

Bravo, BL. Bravo.

Even half-hearted he nearly killed Leman Russ and did kill hundreds to thousands of Space Wolves.

He also handles Lorgar in a brief psychic duel from the other side of the galaxy.

He's only really unimpressive from a battle standpoint in the climax of Battle of the Fang, which was pretty awful, yeah.

As for how his character is written, I personally am really dissatisfied with Magnus as written by ADB, aka the most overrated writer in BL.

 Manchu wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
If he was just banning librarius use of psykers there's literally no reason for all the many instances of psykers holding back their powers once the librarius is dissolved.

There is absolute reason (the decree of the Emperor) for, say, a Blood Angel to hold back. But the decree does not cover SW, so a Rune Priest would not need to hold back. There is a scene V_D is fond of quoting to this effect.

This doesn't make any sense. You are saying the SW don't fall under the decree because they aren't part of the Librarius. Nikea bans librarians from using psyker powers and also dissolves the librarius deptartments. If the department dissolves, the pyskers of say, the blood angels, are no longer part of the librarius and then, like the SW in your argument, they no longer fall under the ban because they aren't part of the librarius (it doesn't exist). Restricting the librarians and then dissolving the librarius by definition has no effect if you interpret it that way. The only logical conclusion is that he is banning all psychic powers in the astartes (because librarian and astartes psyker are synonymous at the time). This is the whole point of the SW claiming their powers are from Fenris rather than the warp as its understood that pysker powers deal with the warp.

Well, The Emperor didn't punish the Space Wolves for keeping their Rune Priests so maybe his wording of the Decree was ALL AS PLANNED (shocking!)

Although, as it's been stated (and evidenced by all HH novels so far) The Emperor is not actually that smart and makes mistakes. A lot.

JubbJubbz wrote:
If the department dissolves, the pyskers of say, the blood angels, are no longer part of the librarius and then, like the SW in your argument, they no longer fall under the ban because they aren't part of the librarius (it doesn't exist).

Again, I posted the quotation ITT. You can read it at any time. What you will find is, the Emperor decreed that any member of the Libararius was to form back into the Legion and never use psychic powers again. None of that applies to Rune Priests.