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 Manchu wrote:
Again, I posted the quotation ITT. You can read it at any time. What you will find is, the Emperor decreed that any member of the Libararius was to form back into the Legion and never use psychic powers again. None of that applies to Rune Priests.

That is not what the quote says at all. I'm very confused how you can think that.

 Manchu wrote:
We have the Emperor's exact words at Nikaea:

The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

A Thousand Sons, p. 355, my emphasis

You emphasized 'its' which refers to the librarius department. The quote goes on to say that the 'its' (librarius dept.) warriors can't use psychic powers anymore. As no warriors belong to the librarius after it is disbanded, interpreting it the way you do makes this ban affect no one. There are no more warriors of librarius. This means that following Nikea, any psyker who is not a member of the librarius (i.e. all of them) would not be in violation of the edict.

You are exactly right.

TiamatRoar wrote:
According to the wiki, of which the article is based on the book, the Emperor DID tell Magnus about Chaos (and only Magnus, because Emps realized that with Magus's psychic powers there was really no avoiding it). However, I dunno what amount of detail he gave to Magnus about it. The wiki just says he "showed the truth of the warp" to Magnus, and Magnus feigned (pretended) shock and horror in response.

offtopic: hello everyone

 Manchu wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:
If the department dissolves, the pyskers of say, the blood angels, are no longer part of the librarius and then, like the SW in your argument, they no longer fall under the ban because they aren't part of the librarius (it doesn't exist).

Again, I posted the quotation ITT. You can read it at any time. What you will find is, the Emperor decreed that any member of the Libararius was to form back into the Legion and never use psychic powers again. None of that applies to Rune Priests.

I think it's been summed up nicely already but one more flaw in your whole "SW don't have a librarius so they are exempt" argument is simply this; The Thousand Sons never had a Librarius department either. Sure they encouraged the introduction of them into the other Legions, but so many of the Thousand Sons were pskers, they were simply spread out amongst the Legion. By your logic, they should also be able to ignore the Edict. Quite obviously, the Emperor meant "all" psychic powers, but just didn't go out of his way to enforce it. Did the Thousand Sons get punished for breaking the decree and using their powers? No they got punished because Magnus did, specifically he used them and caused catastrophic damage to the webway portal. There are examples of Marines breaking the decree across the Legions and not one of them is ever punished. One Raven Guard even does it on Terra, next to a Custodes, and then just claims that the Emperor guided him to do it, and no one bats an eye.

This was Magnus's whole argument against the Edict, it promotes ignorance and hides a problem. Better to understand and explain a phenomenon and harness it safely (more or less) than ban it outright and push it to the shadows. It's almost comparable to the real life "War on Drugs" which has exacerbated the problem it was meant to fix. Honestly, why give at least 4 or 5 of your sons incredible pyschic powers and then after letting them use them for 2 centuries suddenly try and ban them? The whole council was a sham and it was aimed at Magnus. The Wolves just particularly annoy me because they are all "holier than thou" when they actually break all of the same rules, using ignorance as an excuse. Manchu already pointed out, Russ faked savagery to make his brothers underestimate him, so I'm sure he was well aware that his Rune Priests were psykers and simply chose to feign ignorance to suit his own ends.

One thing I don't get about this book is why its so difficult for Magnus to contact the Emp psychically. Its been awhile since I read it but I recall that Magnus supposedly greeted the Emp like an old friend the first time they met. This was because they were never separated like the others. Magnus was such a strong innate psyker that he communed with the Emp long before they ever physically met. If he did it effortlessly as a child why all the hubb bubb now? Why does it take this complex ritual and input from astartes psykers? I realize the warp is in turmoil due to chaos and all but seems like a full grown Magnus could still easily operate his psychic telephone. Furthermore, why does Magnus have to break into the webway to reach the Emp? Granted, he didn't know it was the webway, just a barrier, but its not the only way to connect to the Emperor psychically because we know Magnus did it before. Maybe I'm just missing something but it seems kinda strange the way I remember it

JubbJubbz wrote:
As no warriors belong to the librarius after it is disbanded, interpreting it the way you do makes this ban affect no one.

No. It does not only ban the departments. It says that anyone who was a warrior or an instructor of a Librarius department can never again employ psychic powers:

The Emperor wrote:All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
The Thousand Sons never had a Librarius department either.

Totally false. Magnus took the lead in developing the Librarius with his own legion.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
The Wolves just particularly annoy me because they are all "holier than thou" when they actually break all of the same rules, using ignorance as an excuse.

As explained, the Rune Priests did not violate the Decree.

JubbJubbz wrote:
why its so difficult for Magnus to contact the Emp psychically

The palace was protected by various wards to keep the Warp at bay while the Emperor worked on the Golden Throne. Magnus had to break the wards.

 Manchu wrote:
No. It does not only ban the departments. It says that anyone who was a warrior or an instructor of a Librarius department can never again employ psychic powers:

The Emperor wrote:All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

I disagree. If you say "Bob's cars" (a possessive) it does not refer to all cars Bob has ever owned. Just the ones he currently owns. Similarly "Its warriors" is "the librarius' warriors" and means literally 'warriors of the librarius', not 'warriors that are or ever were of the librarius.'

Even if it did mean what you say, why don't the legions just continue to recruit new pyskers since the new ones (not being part of the librarius) wouldn't fall under the edict according to you? Why do the SW present go through such lengths to deny their powers are of the warp if it were totally irrelevant to the edict? All they'd have to say is "I'm not a librarian".

That English sentence plainly means that every Librarius instructor or warrior is never allowed to use psychic powers again.

The legions could have theoretically created an entirely new regimen of psychic power training after Nikaea but it would have presumably taken a great deal of time and effort and the HH got in the way of things.

Arguably, the Loyalist Astartes may have done exactly that post-HH.

Only Magnus broke the edict and he is not part of the Librarius so therefore he was in the right. See how interpretation works both ways? Magnus was in the right the entire time. The reason he didn't fight is because he knew he was being manipulated by Tzeentch but finally gave into his anger and love for his sons.

Reading the thread is a good idea.

 Manchu wrote:
The kicker is, it's hard to see how what Magnus did (using sorcery himself to break the hexagrammic wards of the palace) violates the decree.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Unless it has something to do with his Librarius being used to send him to the Palace and him responsible for their actions as the Primarch?