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From my paperwork and math (no play experience yet) IK seem reasonably easy to drop. Does anyone have experience with how survivable they are? By adding a command melta drop squad to my IF list that uses 2 devestator units, it seems like I could drop one on turn one.

Easy to kill? When you have the means, yes. Otherwise, not. Then he will dominate and dictate the whole game.

All comers lists which have anti-infantry, anti-tank, anti-flyer, anti-superheavies and anti-whatnot are not easy to field due to point limitations.

Well, its a "light superheavy", so as long you got a healthy amount of anti-tank, its within the realm of possibility.

But do NOT mistake it for easy, a single melta team will NOT drop it, and the knight is a bit of a "kill it while you can" type of guy, as they are VERY good once they hit your lines.

 thecapn226 wrote:
From my paperwork and math (no play experience yet) IK seem reasonably easy to drop. Does anyone have experience with how survivable they are? By adding a command melta drop squad to my IF list that uses 2 devestator units, it seems like I could drop one on turn one.

3.333 hits, 1.667 post ion shield, probably two pens, probably not both explodes and even if they are both explodes you need to roll at least a 2 out of D3 on both dice to drop a Knight T1.

Here's a thread from the other week about killing Knights, listing the best way for most armies to deal with it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581327.page

Take multi meltas on one of your devestator squads instead. meltaguns are going to be a problem as their short range runs the risk of getting caught in a D strength blast,

BrianDavion wrote:
If I wasn't taking a Knight anyway I'd be looking at taking a pair of space marine muli-melta devestator squads. you can get 2 of em in a droppod for about 290 points. and they'd be reasonably solid in choices. even a single multimelta squad would be a threat to a Knight.

Coming out of a pod, one hit if your lucky. Impossible to kill a Knight with one meltagun.

Super Heavies do not function according to the regular damage chart, people. Everyone telling you they are "easy" to kill doesn't quite get that a pen and a glance are essentially the same thing against a super heavy. You also can't ever blow it up in a single super lucky roll. Significant damage, yes. Total annihilation, no.

You also have to keep in mind you're only working at 50% efficiency at best with what'll be the most dangerous squad against it. If you're unable to get a pincer attack on it with two anti-tank units, you're leaving it up to chance whether your attacks even make it through the 4++ invulnerable save.

Considering it's a super heavy, it can stomp through to gain area terrain cover bonuses really easily, as well.

Oh, and also the Paladin is just going to sit back and laugh at you all game with it's double ordnance S8 AP3 60"-range Large blasts should you have the anti-tank weaponry to handle it "with ease." Typically anti-tank weaponry in bulk only comes via Strength D weaponry or is really close range via melta guns or Melta bombs. Dark Eldar can field a ton of Lance weaponry for cheap, but that's all I can really think of in terms of any one army having lots of long range anti-tank weaponry in their TAC lists.

This talk about them being balance, because they can be killed isn't rational.

Sure you can build a list where you can kill one. But have you forgotten that it is legal to run 3-5 of them? Most people don't want to run 1 of anything. Does anybody know a Tau player who runs only a single Riptide? A Tyranid player with a single flyrant? An elder playrer with only one wave serpent?

"I can drop pod in 3 squads of melta gunners, and kill one, so they are entirely balanced." What then happens when the other 4 Knights assault your melta gunner with their huge mobility advantage? How are you going to kill the 2nd? What are you going to do about the last 3 sitting on objectives after they have eliminated everything on the board that can hurt them?

The problem with the Knight isn't that it is impossible to kill, the problem is that it makes the game mostly a formality. When you set 5 of them on the table, and you see your opponents list, victory/defeat will be a foregone conclusion in most cases. 70-80% of games tactics won't matter. Once the lists are built the outcome of the game has essentially been decided.

They aren't easy to kill.

However they are not hard to kill.

It will come down to lists.

If your list has sources of anti tank spread through it, you will be fine.

If it doesn't the knights can focus your Anti tank and ignore the rest.

That said you do not have to kill all the knights to win, if your opponent brings 5 knights, you probably only need to kill 3 to win depending on linebreaker, firstblood and slay the warlord. Considering a knights warlord is probably a knight, if you are playing certain armies picking the knight to take out is not that difficult, and you could turn 1 focus it down and get both firstblood and slay the warlord off the bat.

Knights are pretty mobile, so my advice in objective missions is to not place objectives near where the knight needs to be for linebreaker if you are playing against all knight, as your knight opponent has limited amounts of units, if they want to hold/contest objectives make sure they are not also getting linebreaker for doing so.

Almost every army has a build that can take on knights, the issue is that they are usually builds that are not taken in the current meta of anti tau/eldar.

I totally agree with tag8833. Killing one might not be an issue but go ahead try to take down 5 while it rains S9 AP1 melta pie plates on your side of the table. Not to mention they will be running towards you to hit you with a D-Strength in your face.

A 1500pt list is 4 Knights. Meaning you'd have to be playing 1850 to field 5, and then be completely useless against even a single flier.

Knights are good. They're not that good. You still need list balance.

blaktoof wrote:
Considering a knights warlord is probably a knight,

Obviously if they are using the Imperial Knights codex, this is the case.

However, that guy gains Seneschal Rank for free and has a 3++ instead of a 4++ on his pivotal shield. Focusing him is that much harder, and IMO best thing to do is make that Seneschal a paladin, park him in a corner, and laugh as you'll only ever be able to hit the front facing.

The thing about the shape of the knights is their front (and back) facings are enormous. The unit is so broad, drawing the "crossing lines" from corner to corner is less X shaped and more >< shaped.

There are all sorts of silly dumb things people can do if they use Knights as Allies, too. Personally I plan to get one and run him alongside my Dark Angels. 4 rolls on the divination table between my two librarians. If I get the Ignores Cover power, GG your troops are all dead. He takes several hull points of damage but doesn't go down? Good thing for me I'm planning on getting a few techmarines.

The state of 40k is really boring to me to play against. Honestly, it's more fun when you have to remove your own models because they die. The players around my area who have riptides rarely have to remove one from the table, let alone 2. If they lose, it's just because we rolled The Scouring and they weren't able to keep the opponent off enough objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A 1500pt list is 4 Knights. Meaning you'd have to be playing 1850 to field 5, and then be completely useless against even a single flier.

Knights are good. They're not that good. You still need list balance.

"Weak to a flyer"

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A 1500pt list is 4 Knights. Meaning you'd have to be playing 1850 to field 5, and then be completely useless against even a single flier.

Knights are good. They're not that good. You still need list balance.

"Weak to a flyer"

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Very really. They cannot shoot back at a flyer sans heavy stubber, and Str4 never threatened any form of vehicle.

Vendettas will give them fits, as 1-2 turns of shooting is all it takes. Especially with two.

Stormravens have a 360degree assault cannon. As well as Missiles and an option for a multi-melta. It can also shoot two Knights each turn.

Storm talons, as well, have a 360degree assault cannon and option for Lascannon.

Crimson hunters, you already mentioned.

And what support are you bringing? In an army fielding 4-5 Knights (a scenario presented in this thread, and the one I was addressing) allows for no support at 1500, and 350pts of support at 1850 (unless you field 5 Errants, at which point no support).

 SRSFACE wrote:

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Plan on having much support with 4 knights in a 1500pt game? I'd seriously love to see that actually fielded, squadron of vendettas would have a field day sitting in hover and nuking the beetlebacks.

So what you're saying is an army that goes all in on one strategy without support behind it isn't good?

Gee, go figure.

Good thing you can ally in 3 of them into a primary detachment of any other imperial army, or just field 3 of them and then ally in the imperial force so they are all still scoring units. You can field plenty of support if you choose to.

I played a game the other day against an Imperial Knight with my Eldar and I honestly didn't find it that bad. Perhaps it's because I was playing quite a strong, fast, shooty list, but I had few problems.

I took it down Turn 1 with a Fire Prism and Bright Lance on the front (where it turned its shield) and two Wave Serpents (usual build) in the flanks. I got an explodes with the Serpent Shield, which I guess was pretty lucky, but, even so, I'd have likely taken it down Turn 2. Best thing was that it exploded and took out a bunch of other guys with it.

It was the Melta variant and it only seems deadly when it gets into combat. It's a powerful melta gun, but at the end of the day, it's one shot. I'd have been a lot more scared of it if I was playing Orks or Nids, I reckon.

ncshooter426 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Plan on having much support with 4 knights in a 1500pt game? I'd seriously love to see that actually fielded, squadron of vendettas would have a field day sitting in hover and nuking the beetlebacks.

Do you plan to run your hoard of Vendettas in every game, or just agree to list tailor in every game you play? This is an example of how the game has become a formality. If you bring 9 Vendetta, and he brings 4 Knights. You will win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. However, if you don't bring your 9 Vendettas, he will probably win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. Explain to me how Knights are ever going to be fun?

 SRSFACE wrote:
So what you're saying is an army that goes all in on one strategy without support behind it isn't good?

Gee, go figure.

Good thing you can ally in 3 of them into a primary detachment of any other imperial army, or just field 3 of them and then ally in the imperial force so they are all still scoring units. You can field plenty of support if you choose to.

That's not the point we were contending.

The problem with the Knight isn't that it is impossible to kill, the problem is that it makes the game mostly a formality. When you set 5 of them on the table, and you see your opponents list, victory/defeat will be a foregone conclusion in most cases. 70-80% of games tactics won't matter. Once the lists are built the outcome of the game has essentially been decided.

This was.

tag8833 wrote:

ncshooter426 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Plan on having much support with 4 knights in a 1500pt game? I'd seriously love to see that actually fielded, squadron of vendettas would have a field day sitting in hover and nuking the beetlebacks.

Do you plan to run your hoard of Vendettas in every game, or just agree to list tailor in every game you play? This is an example of how the game has become a formality. If you bring 9 Vendetta, and he brings 4 Knights. You will win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. However, if you don't bring your 9 Vendettas, he will probably win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. Explain to me how Knights are ever going to be fun?

The point was demonstrating that for any extreme (4 knights) there is an equally extreme response (not quite 9...but a large chunk of fliers will work). And no, I wouldn't play - I have no interest in big games. If anything, 40k has gotten very boring to me over the last month after getting back into it,

 obsidiankatana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
If I wasn't taking a Knight anyway I'd be looking at taking a pair of space marine muli-melta devestator squads. you can get 2 of em in a droppod for about 290 points. and they'd be reasonably solid in choices. even a single multimelta squad would be a threat to a Knight.

Coming out of a pod, one hit if your lucky. Impossible to kill a Knight with one meltagun.

yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

BrianDavion wrote:



yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

So you get an optimistic two hits. Both of which have to pen, not get invul'd, and roll 6's for result, and at least 2 of D3 to kill it.

I hate knights. Its just another big model that if its spammed on the table wins every game at the FLGS.

Aircraft have some advantages against them.
Keep your infantry hidden well.
They can still be killed by blobs of fearless models because they can't cut through them that fast.

jakl277 wrote:
I hate knights. Its just another big model that if its spammed on the table wins every game at the FLGS.

Aircraft have some advantages against them.
Keep your infantry hidden well.
They can still be killed by blobs of fearless models because they can't cut through them that fast.

The blobs have to be capable of hurting AV13 to charge the Knights, be aware of this. You cannot charge a vehicle you can't hurt.

BrianDavion wrote:

yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

They snap-fire on the turn they come in on the drop pod. And then just get erased by multiple AP3 pieplates. This doesn't seem like a workable strategy.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:



yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

So you get an optimistic two hits. Both of which have to pen, not get invul'd, and roll 6's for result, and at least 2 of D3 to kill it.

that 4++ invul save is only against ONE direction. which is why I specified TWO units. you want to flank it

BrianDavion wrote:

that 4++ invul save is only against ONE direction. which is why I specified TWO units. you want to flank it

Perfectly aware of what you typed. One of the two hits has a 50/50 chance to connect through a void shield, assuming you even GET two hits on 8 dice needing 6's (not likely). And you need a minimum of two pens to bring it down.

^^ yeah but they are snap firing.

8 shots * (1/6) chance to hit = 1.33 hits.

don't know the math, but lets say its likely you pen with your 1 hit.

Then 1/2 chance the shield is facing the shot and 1/2 he passes his save.

Then another 1/2 chance that you get an explodes result.

Then a 1/3 chance that you take an additional 3 hull points.

That's 4 hull points down, and the Knight in question is still just as angry and killy as ever.

Edit: Ninja'd. I was referring to BrianDavion.

For SM at least, I think we'll be seeing a massive increase of salamander and IF lists since they are the best equipped to take down IKs.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
^^ yeah but they are snap firing.

8 shots * (1/6) chance to hit = 1.33 hits.

don't know the math, but lets say its likely you pen with your 1 hit.

Then 1/2 chance the shield is facing the shot and 1/2 he passes his save.

Then another 1/2 chance that you get an explodes result.

Then a 1/3 chance that you take an additional 3 hull points.

That's 4 hull points down, and the Knight in question is still just as angry and killy as ever.

Edit: Ninja'd. I was referring to BrianDavion.

So a 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3 chance of this happening. An 8% chance of this scenario taking place. Sure, you run those pods.