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My friend and I were arguing about how many seeker missiles a skyray can fire in a single turn. We referred to this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581752.page

But I feel like the conclusion reached in that thread was wrong. Rather than resurrect it, let me outline my rules interpretation, and hopefully someone can tell me why I am right or wrong.

The first point is that Seeker Missiles are "Missiles" as defined in BRB Page 81:

Missiles
Many Flyers are armed with a special kind of weapon called a missile, clearly denoted by their name: Bloodstrike Missiles, Implosion Missiles, and so on are good examples.
Missiles are one use only, but most Flyers carry two or more to maintain a steady weight of fire throughout the game. A maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase, and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn.

This is an important point, because this is in the section about flyers, and the Skyray is a skimmer tank. There is no rules for missile in the section on Skimmers or on Tanks. Therefore, it would appear there are no RAW, but the RAI are likely inherited from the Flyer Section.

The second point is that a maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase. If we accept point one, we could still argue point 2, because an argument could be made that the restriction is specific to Flyers. Since there are no rules about Missile for a skimmer, I would conclude that RAI missiles follow the same rules as flyers. I further support that with the rule for Seeker Markerlights in Codex: Tau page 68:

(Spending a markerlight to fire a seeker missile) Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.

at this point, it could be argued that since there is no RAW for skimmers or tanks firing missiles, the only way that a Skyray can fire a missile is via markerlight. I have disgaurded that point due to the fluff (yes, fluff is the justification that seeker missiles can be fired by a skyray without markerlights) in Codex: Tau page 66:

Seeker missiles are one-shot weapons usually guided to their targets by markerlights, though they can be fired independently as well.

The third point is that the restriction on missiles supersedes the restriction on Vehicles found on BRB:

A vehicle that remained Stationary can fire all of its weapons (remember that pivoting on the spot does not count as moving).
A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes. Though, of course, it cannot fire any weapons that cannot be fired as Snap Shots.
A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above

I arrive at this conclusion because Missiles are clearly marked as a "Special weapon".

The final point is that Seeker missiles fired with a markerlight are not restricted by the number of weapons the skyray can fire. This is spelled out in Codex: Tau page 66:

Seeker: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Markerlight cost: 1 +
For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight.
- Must be fired at the same target as the vehicle's
other weapons.
- Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5.
- Has the Ignores Cover special rule.
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full Ballistic Skill.

My conclusion is thus:
A skyray that has remained stationary can fire all of its weapons (either a TL Burst Cannon, a TL SMS, or nothing) and up to 2 missiles (either using marker lights or not).
A skyray that has moved at combat speed can fire 1 weapon at full BS, and then Snapshoot the rest including up to 2 missiles. Or, it can fire one weapon (TL Burst Cannon, or TL SMS), and expend up to 2 markerlights to fire up to 2 missiles at BS 5.
A skyray that moved at Cruising Speed either snapshot all up its weapons including 2 missiles or snapshot its TL Burst Cannon, or TL SMS, and expend up to 2 markerlights to fire up to 2 missiles at BS 5

At no time can a Skyray fire more that 2 missiles.

I understand that the rules simply don't exist to clarify this in a RAW way, and that opinions may differ on RAI, but I would like to hear your reasoning for agreeing or disagreeing with my conclusions.

Missiles are a weapon. They have special rules when attached to flyers, specifically no more than 2 per turn. A Skyray is not a Flyer. Why would Flyer specific rules apply to non-flyers?

In fact, it's not even that the Missiles have special rules. It's that the Flyers have special rules regarding firing missiles. If it's not a Flyer firing it, why would a rule about Flyers firing Missiles be at all relevant?

Chrysis wrote:
Missiles are a weapon. They have special rules when attached to flyers, specifically no more than 2 per turn. A Skyray is not a Flyer. Why would Flyer specific rules apply to non-flyers?

In fact, it's not even that the Missiles have special rules. It's that the Flyers have special rules regarding firing missiles. If it's not a Flyer firing it, why would a rule about Flyers firing Missiles be at all relevant?

So Missiles are only special weapons when fired by flyers. Are there any other instances of that? Like Grenades not being throwable when held by Jump infantry, or Rapid fire only being allowed 1 shot when on bikes? Barrage only pinning when fired by a Tank?

The closest thing that comes to mind is Relentless, but that is a special rule granted to certain unit types, not a modifier based on unit type.

If the RAI was to make the restrictions only apply to fliers,Why include the following text:

Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: missiles and bombs.

It would seem that is only phrase correctly if the weapon systems are special. Otherwise they might have said "Flyers have special restrictions when using two types of weapons: Missiles and Bombs"

I think its clear that flyers are restricted to firing 2 missiles. The skyray is not.

Missiles are not special because they can be fired by flyers. They are special because they are consumed .

Flyers have a extra restriction on them being able to fire more then 2.

In support of RAI being only two missiles per turn there's an Apocalypse formation that gives its Sky Rays a rule allowing them to fire an unlimited number of missiles per turn, which would be redundant if they already could. Obviously it isn't RAW though, and RAW is perfectly clear that no two-missile limit exists.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you wanted to fire more more than one (or two) seeker missiles, don't you have to declare it before rolling to hit?

I know that if I have an Overlord with a tachyon arrow in a unit of immortals and I'm trying to take down a tank that I'm obligated by the shooting sequence to declare what models are shooting (and not shooting) before I roll to hit.

So, if you're able to fire all your seeker missiles, I would say that you have to declare how many you're firing before you roll to hit.

There aren't a lot of situations where you can gain an advantage from not declaring what weapons you're going to use, but the ones that you can are sometimes game changing such as the idea proposed in this thread.

A similar situation I had was when a group of riptides intercepted my flyer. I knew that if they fire, they can't fire in their next shooting phase. So I requested that the player tell me what weapons are firing before rolling to hit so that he isn't able to sequentially fire through his weapons until the flyer is dead and thus use the left over weapons that missed in his next shooting phase.

I may be playing this wrong in RAW, but I would assume that the same restrictions imposed on a unit are imposed on a single model when able to fire multiple weapons.

But this is HIWPI. So if you want to fire multiple seekers (if it's allowed). As long as you declare how many you were going to fire before you rolled to hit, I would be on board with it.

I'm going to make a thread to see if I can get any concrete answers on this though.

sonicaucie wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you wanted to fire more more than one (or two) seeker missiles, don't you have to declare it before rolling to hit?

I know that if I have an Overlord with a tachyon arrow in a unit of immortals and I'm trying to take down a tank that I'm obligated by the shooting sequence to declare what models are shooting (and not shooting) before I roll to hit.

So, if you're able to fire all your seeker missiles, I would say that you have to declare how many you're firing before you roll to hit.

There aren't a lot of situations where you can gain an advantage from not declaring what weapons you're going to use, but the ones that you can are sometimes game changing such as the idea proposed in this thread.

A similar situation I had was when a group of riptides intercepted my flyer. I knew that if they fire, they can't fire in their next shooting phase. So I requested that the player tell me what weapons are firing before rolling to hit so that he isn't able to sequentially fire through his weapons until the flyer is dead and thus use the left over weapons that missed in his next shooting phase.

I may be playing this wrong in RAW, but I would assume that the same restrictions imposed on a unit are imposed on a single model when able to fire multiple weapons.

But this is HIWPI. So if you want to fire multiple seekers (if it's allowed). As long as you declare how many you were going to fire before you rolled to hit, I would be on board with it.

I'm going to make a thread to see if I can get any concrete answers on this though.

yes all shooting attacks from the unit must be declared before rolling to hit.

Yes, very much rules as written that a stationary Skyray can fire all of its missiles as long as its following the other rules for shooting.

I don't think this is the way it was supposed to be as if you read the Apocalypse formation consisting of Skyrays, there is a bonus ability allowing them to fire more missiles. Having this ability makes no sense if the Skyrays can already fire all of their missiles.

But, there is no basis in the wording of the rules that the Skyray can't fire all its missiles.

I suspect this is something that will get dealt with in the '7th Ed' update that's being rumored.

 Peregrine wrote:
In support of RAI being only two missiles per turn there's an Apocalypse formation that gives its Sky Rays a rule allowing them to fire an unlimited number of missiles per turn, which would be redundant if they already could. Obviously it isn't RAW though, and RAW is perfectly clear that no two-missile limit exists.

I thought that formation allowed the Skyray to "rearm" themselves so they can keep firing.

If it was RAI that Skyrays could only fire two seeker missiles a turn, then why did they remove that specific language from from the new edition of the Codex (old C:TE restricted models to only firing two per turn).

Also, the interpretation that only two missiles applies to tanks doesn't make sense when you consider the IG missile tank that can fire more than two per turn if it rolls well.

maceria wrote:
If it was RAI that Skyrays could only fire two seeker missiles a turn, then why did they remove that specific language from from the new edition of the Codex (old C:TE restricted models to only firing two per turn).

GW makes mistakes. It seems like this restriction was supposed to carry over (that apocalypse formation that people are mentioning was released after the new Tau codex), but somone dun gooffed when writing the skyray rules in the codex.

In any case, until GW updates the Tau Codex FAQ (ha!) to explicitly fix this, we will continue to play RAW: skyray can blow it's entire load in one turn.

actually the difference with the apocalypse formation is that it would enable them to fire all their missiles even after moving.
It wount change anything if they remain stationnary.

Also how would you play the stormtalon who can fire 3 missiles a turn with his missile launcher being Heavy 3? you would decrease it to heavy 2??

Those are Missile Launchers, not Missiles. No restriction on the Launchers.

Missiles are specifically one use weapons.
Missile launchers are not.

It really would have been better to define Bomb and Missile as weapon based Special Rules and take them out of the vehicles section.

Jefffar wrote:
It really would have been better to define Bomb and Missile as weapon based Special Rules and take them out of the vehicles section.

Very true.
If you read Imperial Armour: Auronautica you'll see that ForgeWorld have done exactly that!
Added a weapon specific special rule called "missile".
Much better idea.

With Jefffar on this,

I find it insane fact they stuck a Rule concerning 'Special Weapon System' in the Flyer section, restricting it to just Flyers, when it could of been so useful if written for all situations. It really would be better suited to the Weapon section given how common missiles are on non-flyers. There are even situations non-vehicle model have access to "One Use Only" Rules or piece of War-gear that functions very similar to Bombs, so it both parts of the 'Special Weapon System' rules could be treated so. Putting them in the Weapon Section as a Weapon Type, or dedicating a Special Rule to 'Missile' and 'Bombs' and putting it in the usual place for those, would just work so much better.

On that note;
Look through the Rule book for a detailed description of what the Special Rule 'one use only' does, then be thankful we have common sense.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

maceria wrote:
If it was RAI that Skyrays could only fire two seeker missiles a turn, then why did they remove that specific language from from the new edition of the Codex (old C:TE restricted models to only firing two per turn).

GW makes mistakes. It seems like this restriction was supposed to carry over (that apocalypse formation that people are mentioning was released after the new Tau codex), but somone dun gooffed when writing the skyray rules in the codex.

In any case, until GW updates the Tau Codex FAQ (ha!) to explicitly fix this, we will continue to play RAW: skyray can blow it's entire load in one turn.

Or the mistake is in the Apocalypse book, and they thought that he rule restricting flyers applied to skyrays as well.