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Hi, this is my first list and I need some help with the list I have created. I will be using it against ork and blood angels so i am trying to make it anti-infantry. Please can you help me with what to remove and change, but i don't have a large buget
Here it goes:

Hq
Be'Lakor - 350
Daemon Prince w/ wings, power armour, MoK, Axe of blind fury - 250

Troops[u]
7 CSM w/ MoN, plasma gun, heavy bolter- 147
7 CSM w/ MoN, plasma gun, heavy bolter- 147
7 CSM w/ heavy bolter and champion w/ powersword- 126
7 CSM w/ MoK, 5 close combat weapons - 125

Elites
10 terminators w/ MoK, heavy flamer, reaper autocannon, 3 powerfists, chainfist,combi-melta,combi-flamer) 420

Fast Attack
Heldrake- 170

Heavy support
2 Maulerfiend- 250

I think that comes in at 1995. What do you guys think? I am thinking about changing Be'lakor out for another heldrake and then i have 180 points left over for something else.

I'm about to be hyper critical please don't hate me for it

First landraider, why? 10 terminators won't fit in it and a havoc launcher is pointless on something that will always be moving as you can't snap fire it. Dirge caster Is the useful upgrade.
That asides I cannot work out why you have one, no unit in your army merits the giant box.

Second where is the anti tank? Pointless Raider aside most anti armor weapons you have require melee range. NOT A GOOD PLAN blind fury prince will dismantle what ever he touches but only one unit as he isn't strong enough to survive return fire. Use him as a distraction for deep striking terminators and you have a fair chance at destroying around 3 tanks, people have more than e tanks at this level unless They are tyranids who will destroy this lists due to low model count.

Get some anti air, flyers will be a problem at this level

Belakor is awesome, but again what is he Working with? Maulerfiends pair well due to awesome invisible attack dog, being invisible mitigates the low ws3 and adding lasher tendrils will allow you to kill small terminator groups . another nice pairing is spawn. They benefit hugely from being invisible and removing Fearless from their victims will slow you to sweap with ease.

I have changed the list to get rid of the raider, replaced with two maulerfiends to help with tanksbut not sure about how to improve anti-flyer in the list.

Belakor is one of the rare cases were you have a tactical psyker, as you know all the powers he has. Puppet master will allow you to use your opponents anti flyer things but that's not always reliable.

Try dropping the blind fury prince and taking a lord, with the extra points upgrade a maulerfeind to a forge feind, belakor can't keep both maulerfeinds invisible and his LD lowering effect works well with the auto cannons pinning effect. Forgefinds due to volume of fire have a reasonable chance of hurting flyers.

Terminus_Est wrote:
Hi, this is my first list and I need some help with the list I have created. I will be using it against ork and blood angels so i am trying to make it anti-infantry. Please can you help me with what to remove and change, but i don't have a large buget
Here it goes:

Hq
Be'Lakor - 350
Daemon Prince w/ wings, power armour, MoK, Axe of blind fury - 250

Troops[u]
7 CSM w/ MoN, plasma gun, heavy bolter- 147
7 CSM w/ MoN, plasma gun, heavy bolter- 147
7 CSM w/ heavy bolter and champion w/ powersword- 126
7 CSM w/ MoK, 5 close combat weapons - 125

Elites
10 terminators w/ MoK, heavy flamer, reaper autocannon, 3 powerfists, chainfist,combi-melta,combi-flamer) 420

Fast Attack
Heldrake- 170

Heavy support
2 Maulerfiend- 250

I think that comes in at 1995. What do you guys think? I am thinking about changing Be'lakor out for another heldrake and then i have 180 points left over for something else.

I'm going to be completely honest with you. As a fellow Chaos Space Marine player, I'm not the slightest bit afraid of your list.

Your spending too much on HQ. End of story. Go Belakor or go daemon prince. One or the other. Not both. Drop one and bring a Chaos lord with a mark. This mark on the lord opens up the good troop choices. CSMs are TERRIBLE. They fragile and break easily. Plague Marines, thousand sons, or noise marines are tough and can hold points while unleashing serious fire power.

Chaos terminators aren't Space Marine terminators. They are a good harass and wound eater. I have to deal with them immediately. But that is just too many points for cannon fodder. The strengths of Chaos termies are they are cheap. Bringing ten negates that advantage. Deep strike 5. Power axes. MoK Icon of Wrath. That's 20 strength 6 AP2 on the charge for like 200 points. Bring combi-melta plasma so you can take some stuff out on the deep strike.

The good thing you have going for you is the Mauler fiends would get to meet as they lower on my target priority list. It would kill some stuff, but it would be tar pitted and I could kill it when I'm ready.

The main problem is poor point usage.

A few things :
MoK on the DP + axe of blind fury is a terrible combination. Go MoT + black mace, much better.
I second what Serg is saying. A quick fix would be taking a very cheap HQ + Belakor or DP. A MoN lord on bike with brand always makes his points back, plus you can take PM as troops.
Another quick fix is taking Abby and replacing the CSM with chosen.

Split your terminators is minimal squads, get them combi whatever, and DS them at tactical points.

The only thing frightning me are your HQ. Easy to dodge and isolate while frying your troops.

I was just going to comment on how much I liked the Axe prince. I've never seen anyone use it, and I think he's awesome.

Sadly, he's not THAT much killier than a lord with the same weapon - he just goes first with it, unless the enemy is in cover. A lord could hide in a unit (unless in a challenge).

I second the issue with the marines, though. Not only is your squad illegal (you need 10 members to get a heavy weapon), but they're depending on leadership 9 to carry them through the day. You need either the Icon of Vengeance to make them fearless or just take a nurgle lord to take plaguemarines.

Without a large budget, here are some high-point models you can use that aren't terrible:

Be'lakor (not much wrong with him)
Forgefiends - cost-for-point, these guys work out well.

Plaguemarines

Terminators

Heldrake is nice, but it's a pricey model. You don't need more than 1.

 Spellbound wrote:
I was just going to comment on how much I liked the Axe prince. I've never seen anyone use it, and I think he's awesome.

Sadly, he's not THAT much killier than a lord with the same weapon - he just goes first with it, unless the enemy is in cover. A lord could hide in a unit (unless in a challenge).

I second the issue with the marines, though. Not only is your squad illegal (you need 10 members to get a heavy weapon), but they're depending on leadership 9 to carry them through the day. You need either the Icon of Vengeance to make them fearless or just take a nurgle lord to take plaguemarines.

Without a large budget, here are some high-point models you can use that aren't terrible:

Be'lakor (not much wrong with him)
Forgefiends - cost-for-point, these guys work out well.

Plaguemarines

Terminators

Heldrake is nice, but it's a pricey model. You don't need more than 1.

obliterators. Your forgot three nurgle obliterators. ALWAYS PAY FOR THEMSELVES. They kill things or eat wounds that allow other stuff better opportunities.

They are relying on leadership 9 if the aspiring champion isn't dead. Then its 8. And they fail that way more than it seems they should..

I'm going to disagree with a few things, but I don't feel your completely wrong. Just my opinion based on my experience. I've actually had a hard time making value back on Forge fiends. I would prefer to bring Oblits for slightly more or cut points and bring a predator.

Another thing with scary heavy support. THEY ARE SCARY. They are enemy target priority number one. Therefore you can't rely on them if they are a vital part of your strategy. BBringtwo.

I disagree with only one heldrake. One always gets killed, vector locked, or Baleflamer destroyed. Bring two and you will have a backup one. Two functioning. Enemy is gaking themselves.

Daemon Princes handicap you because they are too expensive and limit your troop options.
!

Belakor can regroup your troops using his psychic powers and having him as your warlord gives -1LD on all your opponents units. he is an asset and will help your army, demon prices don't as they range ahead and fight their own fights.

as for anti air more drakes is not the answer, the strike is S7 and that wont cut most flyers.

1 drake is fine they cannot scratch tanks, and one will kill its points back in infantry easily, use 2 and you are so efficient at killing infantry that you have run out of available targets.

swap fury prince for a lord (or drake if you must) and then upgrade a maulerfeind to a forgefeind with auto cannons,

Oh, I never realized how bad my list was!
Thanks for the advice, here's the new version:

Hq
Daemon Prince w/ wings, power armour, MoK, Axe of blind fury - 250
Chaos Lord w/ MoN, bike, black mace - 145

Troops[u]
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
7 CSM w/ heavy bolter and champion w/ powersword- 126
7 CSM w/ MoK, 5 close combat weapons - 125

Fast Attack
Heldrake- 170
6 Bikes w/ flamer, melta, MoN- 181

Heavy support
Maulerfiend- 125
Landraider w/ dirge caster, havoc launcher- 250
3 Obliterator w/MoN -228

I already have:
14 plague marines
20 CSM
Daemon Prince
5 Terminators
Landraider
Typhus
Abbadon
Khorne Lord
14 Khorne bezerkers

I only have around £150 to spend and I don't know how to improve the list. Thanks for all the help and keep it coming!

 Blackskull wrote:
Belakor can regroup your troops using his psychic powers and having him as your warlord gives -1LD on all your opponents units. he is an asset and will help your army, demon prices don't as they range ahead and fight their own fights.

as for anti air more drakes is not the answer, the strike is S7 and that wont cut most flyers.

1 drake is fine they cannot scratch tanks, and one will kill its points back in infantry easily, use 2 and you are so efficient at killing infantry that you have run out of available targets.

swap fury prince for a lord (or drake if you must) and then upgrade a maulerfeind to a forgefeind with auto cannons,

I never said drakes were used for anti air. I said bring two because your opponent will focus fire on just one. Therefore bringing just can't be relied on. If you bring two. Chances are at least one will survive and started cutting through infantry. If you have two working drakes then you can cut through even more. Then your troops can focus on holding points and shooting scary things. Not having enough targets isn't a bad problem.

As for anti air. I recommend an aegis with quad gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Terminus_Est wrote:
Oh, I never realized how bad my list was!
Thanks for the advice, here's the new version:

Hq
Daemon Prince w/ wings, power armour, MoK, Axe of blind fury - 250
Chaos Lord w/ MoN, bike, black mace - 145

Troops[u]
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
7 CSM w/ heavy bolter and champion w/ powersword- 126
7 CSM w/ MoK, 5 close combat weapons - 125

Fast Attack
Heldrake- 170
6 Bikes w/ flamer, melta, MoN- 181

Heavy support
Maulerfiend- 125
Landraider w/ dirge caster, havoc launcher- 250
3 Obliterator w/MoN -228

I already have:
14 plague marines
20 CSM
Daemon Prince
5 Terminators
Landraider
Typhus
Abbadon
Khorne Lord
14 Khorne bezerkers

I only have around £150 to spend and I don't know how to improve the list. Thanks for all the help and keep it coming!

You still have two major issues to consider. and one minor thing I would consider.

Little thing first. I would put the sigil of corruption on your lord for a 4+ invuln. But that isn't completely necessary. Just personal preference.

Obliterators and side sponson lascannons on your raider will solve you're anti tank. You still have an anti air problem though. Consider dropping the Khorne CSM for an aegis with quad gun. Points wise. That is probably you best option.

Last issue. Plague marines are awesome at holding points. But you have to get them to the point. Foot slogging isn't the way to go. They will get killed. You need to use rhinos in a Chaos army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm assuming your putting one squad of plagues in the raider, which is good. Drop the Khorne CSMs get 125 points back. Spend 100 of it on an aegis with quad gun. You have 25 points left. A bare bones rhino costs 35 points. You need to cut 10 points somewhere to buy that and you will have a sound list. One that will give your opponents a lot to think about. Cough raider's havoc launcher Cough. Havoc launcher will limit you to 6 inch movement. You can't snap shot a template. You want to be aggressive with a raider. It has 14 armor. That's its strength.

Abaddon and Typhus are fun. But don't seem to consistently pay for themselves.

"sigh" raider again? you get more lascannons on a predator for much cheaper points cost, you could by a second obliterator team with the points you have sunk into that thing and once again it has no unit that merits an assault transport.

Bezerkers + raider is awesome they will kill what ever you unload them on, terminators in raider also works, these belong in an assault transport.

re think the raider, swap for tri las pread and use the extra points saved to put belakor back in in place of the AoBF prince

Ok, this list is going to end up well to expensive for me to make it viable.
What do you guys think of this list instead:

Hq
Daemon Prince w/ wings, power armour, Black Mace - 260
Typhus- 230

Troops[u]
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
27 zombies - 128
27 zombies - 128
27 zombies - 128

Elites
10 Khorne bezerkers (in raider) - 200

Fast Attack
Heldrake- 170

Heavy support
Maulerfiend- 125
Landraider w/ dirge caster,- 235

that is just as bad as the first

Why? When against a list with flyers, i would swap the maulerfiend for an aegis

You have no anti armor and anti air. You were close on the second list.

Cut the 4th MoK CSM for aegis line. Buy an aegis with quad. Cut the havoc launcher. Buy a rhino for the second squad of plague marines.

Did you mean first list? And do you think that with thoes changes, I would have a semi-competetive list?

As budget seems to be a concern here, if you could post what models you have available it would be easier to help you get the most out of what you have.

After that how competative are you trying to be?

Answer these two questions and we will be able to be more helpful.

In a previous post I posted i have
14 plague marines
20 CSM
Daemon Prince
5 Terminators
Landraider
Typhus
Abbadon
Khorne Lord
14 Khorne bezerkers

And I also want just to have a decent army to give friends a run for their money and to have an interesting and fun game!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The current list is:

Hq
Daemon Prince w/ wings, power armour, MoK, Axe of blind fury - 250
Chaos Lord w/ MoN, bike, black mace - 145

Troops[u]
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun- 188
7 plague marines w/ MoN, plasma gun, melta gun,rhino- 223
7 CSM w/ heavy bolter and champion w/ powersword- 126

Fast Attack
Heldrake- 170
6 Bikes w/ flamer, melta, MoN- 181

Heavy support
Maulerfiend- 125
Landraider w/ dirge caster, havoc launcher- 250
3 Obliterator w/MoN -228


Aegis defense line with quad gun - 100

That is the llist. What did you remove to pay for the rhino? This list should do you well. Practice with it, and learn how to play with it. You should be able to win some games with it.

Apologies, I missed where you had already posted what you had.


typhus

2x
Plague marines x10
plasmagun

3x
obilterator
MoN

1x
helldrake

This comes out to about 1140 in points. I see you dont have any obilterators but there are serveral guides where people have converted some up. Also converting regular CSM to Plague marines would not be difficult.

Also you could use you typhus as a MoN Chaos Lord. With your current low model count you will have to be creative to put up much of a fight at 2000 points. If possible I would suggest playing at smaller points limits and trying out some things. While I abhor the Chaos Landraider depending on your friends lists it may not be terrible. Your friends having powerhouse lists doesnt make it the most efficient use of the points, but could make it more viable for your setting than it would be for others here on Dakka. Also if your friend dont mind letting you proxy units for a battle or two you could learn wether or not you like them before you spend the time to convert them up or the money to buy them.


Just saw your last posted list, looks good. Which kinda makes most of what I posted superfluous.

Thank you all for your help to make my first list! Sadfacegoboom, thanks for the help to try and make a budget list but I think the budget has to go to make a viable competetive fun list! The list totals 1986 points and I fit the rhino in because I had spare points hanging around!

Terminus_Est wrote:
Thank you all for your help to make my first list! Sadfacegoboom, thanks for the help to try and make a budget list but I think the budget has to go to make a viable competetive fun list! The list totals 1986 points and I fit the rhino in because I had spare points hanging around!

Shave off the havoc launcher. Its not going to do anything for you. get a sigil of corruption on your lord.

How useful if the Sigil of corruption ?

4+ invulnerable save. It'll save you from high armor piercing attacks

As a CSM player I ALWAYS run: 1 Drake and 1 group of Spawn x 5 w/ MoN = 350pts.

Invest/kit bash 5 spawn. It is very had for someone to kill 5 MoN spawn in a single game turn, they get into CC by turn 2. They also force your opponent to deal with them. If they don't = they only make that mistale once.

Meh on the spawn. You can try them later and see if you like them. Spawn are random. Remember that.

Personally, I prefer bikes over spawn because they are more controlled and flexible.

bikes pop tanks

Omg!


Typhus (ds or walk with oblitz)

7 pm, 2 plasma guns, rhino

7 pm, 2 meltaguns, rhino, dcaster

Fill with zombies

3 baledrakes

3x3 oblitz MoN (can still do pairs instead)

Allies black legion

Belakor

Cultist

Baledrake or dakkadrake

3 or 2 oblitz, MoN, votlw

If its over points then shave pm squad down to 5 man. If its way over then no allies.