Top 5 Tabletop Games report

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**drazz**

silent25 wrote:
drazz wrote:
On the Warmachine/Hordes debate:

They have to be reported as different games because they are technically owned by two different groups. PP publishes them, and most of the ownership is the same, but it is not entirely the same group, so different legal entities.

I think the best analogy here would be 40k and Forgeworld. Definitely overlapping ownership and coordinated development, but different legal entities.

if Warmahordes was a single group, it would be interesting to see who makes #5. Fantasy, Infinity, someone else?

Sorry missed this in my last my last reply. What ownership differences are there between WM and Hordes? Is this like with Level 7 where it is copyrighted Matt Wilson and not PP?

Sounds like the same idea. I can;t remember who is different in the groups, but I think someone was in the Warmachine ownership that was later not a member of the Hordes group (and thus no longer part of PP other than as owner of the WM copyright.)

In look for information, I did notice something I think is odd--Warmachine has an "R" registered trademark, and Hordes has a "TM" trademark. Thoughts?

**silent25**

drazz wrote:
silent25 wrote:
drazz wrote:
On the Warmachine/Hordes debate:

They have to be reported as different games because they are technically owned by two different groups. PP publishes them, and most of the ownership is the same, but it is not entirely the same group, so different legal entities.

I think the best analogy here would be 40k and Forgeworld. Definitely overlapping ownership and coordinated development, but different legal entities.

if Warmahordes was a single group, it would be interesting to see who makes #5. Fantasy, Infinity, someone else?

Sorry missed this in my last my last reply. What ownership differences are there between WM and Hordes? Is this like with Level 7 where it is copyrighted Matt Wilson and not PP?

Sounds like the same idea. I can;t remember who is different in the groups, but I think someone was in the Warmachine ownership that was later not a member of the Hordes group (and thus no longer part of PP other than as owner of the WM copyright.)

In look for information, I did notice something I think is odd--Warmachine has an "R" registered trademark, and Hordes has a "TM" trademark. Thoughts?

That could be either Brian Snoddy or Mike McVey. Snoddy was with Wilson from the start and I remember meeting both of them in artist alley at SDCC all those years ago talking about a new project they were excitedly working on. Was the first Witchfire book.

Man I'm old......

**Zweischneid**

Kroothawk wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
Well, nothing like some reports from Corvus Belli, Privateer or Wyrd (ICv2's No. 5 for 3 years or so, before X-Wing) to add some substance to this mystery... got some links?

.

Awesome. Thanks

Where's that one from?

**Dheneb**

Pretty sure it was their seminar at Gencon 2013.

**Piston Honda**

Dheneb wrote:
Pretty sure it was their seminar at Gencon 2013.

Correct, I believe the youtber Dormeicon has a video of the presentation.

found it...

Spoiler:

**Absolutionis**

I remember that a few years ago, Wyrd's Malifaux was #5 on this list behind 40k, Fantasy, Warmachine, and Hordes. It could still be a strong contender for the #6 slot especially with its popular plastics and in spite of its v2.0 turmoil.

But it's all speculation.

**Zweischneid**

Absolutionis wrote:
I remember that a few years ago, Wyrd's Malifaux was #5 on this list behind 40k, Fantasy, Warmachine, and Hordes. It could still be a strong contender for the #6 slot especially with its popular plastics and in spite of its v2.0 turmoil.

But it's all speculation.

Yeah. Wyrd was number 5 for 3 years or so.

Infact, before Fall 2012, that little table never changed.

1. Warhammer 40K
2. Warmachine
3. Warhammer Fantasy Battle
4. Hordes
5. Malifaux

Thats the way it was for years, unchanging, everlasting... until X-Wing came with GenCon 2012 and, now, Warhammer Fantasy disappeared.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

and with the D&D dragons version of the X-wing/Attack wing rules coming soon I wonder if we'll soon have all three of them in there ?

**AlexHolker**

drazz wrote:
In look for information, I did notice something I think is odd--Warmachine has an "R" registered trademark, and Hordes has a "TM" trademark. Thoughts?

That is unsurprising. Warmachine is the strongest of the two brand names with a more consistent aesthetic, so it makes sense that Privateer Press would register the Warmachine trademark even if they don't bother registering Hordes.

**Absolutionis**

AlexHolker wrote:
drazz wrote:
In look for information, I did notice something I think is odd--Warmachine has an "R" registered trademark, and Hordes has a "TM" trademark. Thoughts?

That is unsurprising. Warmachine is the strongest of the two brand names with a more consistent aesthetic, so it makes sense that Privateer Press would register the Warmachine trademark even if they don't bother registering Hordes.

It could also be that "Warmachine" was available to be a registered trademark. The closest thing we have is Marvel's character "War Machine" (with a space).

On the other hand, "Hordes" is a common word and somewhat more difficult to register.

**PhantomViper**

silent25 wrote:
Was pointed out in another thread, Privateer Press mentioned at TempleCon their numbers for last year being around $15-16M.

Do you have a link for this? I followed the PP address quite closely and didn't hear anything about this.

**Maniac_nmt**

silent25 wrote:
As pointed out this is a sampling of game stores wishing to share their information and is for North America only. Nothing hard. Store owners have stated on this board the numbers are very broad, and unreliable.

Not sure how long Star Trek will remain on that list. It was a big flash when it came out, but didn't last more than a month or so locally. People complained the figures weren't as good as SW and the rules not as polished. Still, surprised with the legs Star Wars has.

Mantic will never be on that list because they aren't carried by most stores. No one bothers to carry them when Manitc is undecutting them with Kickstarters and sales through their online store.

And while people are tooting the 20% growth, again, ICv2 doesn't mention Non-Collectible Miniature games contributing to that growth. Was pointed out in another thread, Privateer Press mentioned at TempleCon their numbers for last year being around $15-16M. An ex-PP employee told me their were pulling in $12-13M back in 2010. They are suppose to be taking off and that is only about 5% growth. A far cry from the 15-25% everyone like to throw around when ICv2 is brought up. And that number puts them at less than what WHFB pulls in total for GW. Harry pointed out on Warseer it was pulling high teens percentage wise for GW at the start of 8th and I had heard it was still pulling low teens last summer. That still puts it pulling in well above PP.

Try Wings of War/Wings of Glory which picked up what Wizkids had tried to do with Crimson Skies, simplified it a ton, and thus gave us Star Wars/Star Trek in many respects.

It's a brilliantly simple or complex game, according to player preference. WW2 is a bit tough, as the planes are so much faster, hit so much harder, but WW1 is absolutely brilliant. I cannot recommend it enough, easily one of the best tabletop games out there, particularly if you enjoy air combat.

**silent25**

PhantomViper wrote:
silent25 wrote:
Was pointed out in another thread, Privateer Press mentioned at TempleCon their numbers for last year being around $15-16M.

Do you have a link for this? I followed the PP address quite closely and didn't hear anything about this.

I got the number first hand from an ex-PP employee who was at TempleCon. Same person who told me a couple years ago that PP's total revenue was only equal to a quarter of GW's NA sales. Can't remember, but someone else on the board also mentioned hearing the number at TempleCon.