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 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
Now you could say that parents are going to foot that bill but I see parents far more willing to spend 60 bucks on the latest xbox or ps game that won't require them to throw out the minis and paint and brushes (and their money) once timmy gets bored in a couple of weeks.

Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills. There's still strong word-of-mouth buzz about 40k at my nipper's school; if the percentage takeup is mirrored by the larger population, that age range would deliver the bulk of GW's UK revenue.

Yes, like soccer, volleyball, tennis, or baseball.

In our area, there is a very distinct dearth of younger players. Right now, I can think of exactly one high-school aged regular who plays 40K and WHFB at the FLGS I regularly attend, and that store is by far the most popular in the metropolitan area. This is a change from a few years ago where we had lots of younger players. Many of those younger players are still active at the store, now in their early 20's, but the only younger players who come to the store are their for the CCGs, typically, MtG.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills.

One could describe playing X-box as exactly that. ... .

Yerss. One could also describe it as sitting all alone in a bedroom shooting imaginary people in the head and swearing at anonymous strangers on TeamTalk.

The parents comment by HiveFleet is interesting because I've seen the exact opposite behavior of parents.

Something has changed in my area in the last couple of years regarding "new" kids getting into GW games. I've seen parents actively discourage their kids from buying GW boxes once they see the price. They usually go "whoa I can buy you a new (video) game for that! Why don't you get some cards and we'll get a game later" and then the kid puts it back. I've seen this happen repeatedly and I'm only a customer at the FLGS. I'm pretty certain a SM Tactical box at $20 the parents wouldn't even bat an eye over it and then a new kid is possibly hooked.

These parents are not poor, since the FLGS moved into my area these are parents I know of kids my own kids age and they probably make more than I do. They're not stupid but it's odd they'd rather their kid play video games than doing something "constructive and creative." Put another way they'd rather their kid play a video game than buy "expensive plastic crap" to use a term of one parent I know.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills.

One could describe playing X-box as exactly that. ... .

Yerss. One could also describe it as sitting all alone in a bedroom shooting imaginary people in the head and swearing at anonymous strangers on TeamTalk.

And we could describe 40k as pushing toys across a table making pew pew noises while imagining you are shooting imaginary people in a room full of strangers while swearing at dice rolls.

 Consul Scipio wrote:
Put another way they'd rather their kid play a video game than buy "expensive plastic crap" to use a term of one parent I know.

Heh. My parents went from

"sure, we'll buy whatever you like for your birthday/xmas"

to

"Its a waste of money we're not going to buy it for you anymore"

.

I'm now 22, have been in the wargaming hobby for 10 years and their current attitude is

Wow, your painting is so good, why didn't you choose this as a career path?

The embarrassing thing is, I'm not really that good a painter.

People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Take the video game industry for example. Back when I was young a video game (brand new) cost $20. When the average price of the game became $30, many players said OMG THAT IS CRIMINAL THIS INDUSTRY IS DEAD! Low and behold, the industry continued to thrive and thus game developers began charging $40 per game, then jumped dramatically to $60 per game. And now there are online subscriptions to contend with as well. Yet that industry still thrives despite the complaining about the price of the products. The games have gotten prettier, but on the whole there hasn't been anything really "new" in roughly ten years as far as a game goes. Sure we get new interactive ways to play the games, but they are really the same old, rehashed crap with new, fancy labeling and ways to play it.

Now with GW they are merely doing the same thing. And like the video game industry there are still a GREAT MANY people willing to pay those prices and hock $140 for the new Imperial Knight which says to GW, "How can we do more?" I'm sure their company is fine despite lower sales in recent years. They will be around for a long time yet.

 Consul Scipio wrote:
The parents comment by HiveFleet is interesting because I've seen the exact opposite behavior of parents.

Something has changed in my area in the last couple of years regarding "new" kids getting into GW games. I've seen parents actively discourage their kids from buying GW boxes once they see the price. They usually go "whoa I can buy you a new (video) game for that! Why don't you get some cards and we'll get a game later" and then the kid puts it back. I've seen this happen repeatedly and I'm only a customer at the FLGS. I'm pretty certain a SM Tactical box at $20 the parents wouldn't even bat an eye over it and then a new kid is possibly hooked.

These parents are not poor, since the FLGS moved into my area these are parents I know of kids my own kids age and they probably make more than I do. They're not stupid but it's odd they'd rather their kid play video games than doing something "constructive and creative." Put another way they'd rather their kid play a video game than buy "expensive plastic crap" to use a term of one parent I know.

I think a big part of it is the cost for a single game and the high rate which children get bored of things.

To play 40k you need to spent money on models, brushes, rulebook, codex etc. Sure with a video game you buy a console first which isnt cheap but then you £40 and get a brand new game every time.

No, it's not about brushes or paint or commitment. What I'm getting at is even the parents are noticing a lack of value with GW products. That wasn't the case maybe 5 years ago. Back then I remember seeing parents grudgingly buying GW stuff. But not now I haven't seen even that in years when I think about it.

Also, I should point out that any kid interested in GW product already has brushes and paints as they most probably have a plastic model airplane or even ship from a past present. Those are easy to buy. Easier to get than GW stuff. Cheaper too. Which leads to the value proposition problem of GW stuff for a parent.

Edit: I can't think of a way to tie this into a similarity with TSR though.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills.

One could describe playing X-box as exactly that. ... .

Yerss. One could also describe it as sitting all alone in a bedroom shooting imaginary people in the head and swearing at anonymous strangers on TeamTalk.

Sure. I simply found it amusing that his description of a virtue of table top wargaming was that it demanded motor skills. I think everyone knew that he meant the hobby/craft aspects of table top wargaming (assembling models, converting, sculpting, painting) and the intellectual aspects (reading, critical thinking, probabilities, imagination, creativity, etc.).

blingman wrote:
This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.

Strength to strength is that players who have a ton of their product from the days of old feel abandoned and can see the decline of the "quality" of the actual game and the fancy models are not making up for it.
The new players they are targeting know no better but do have to pay double what any other game to enter would require so I ask: how is a new player going to be convinced that GW is worth the "investment" of money and time to play?
Especially with us "old folk" grumbling about GW making things obsolete in the span of months.
X-wing is painted and good to go right out of the box.

It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.

Huh?
The top spot in wargaming in what way?
From experience you seem to have far less daylight hours so staying indoors and playing tabletop is a viable alternative.
There are no good numbers out there on full sales since most competitive game companies are not publically traded so what you mainly have to go by is GW data.
Top number of tabletop wargaming per capita I would agree, for country-wide sales I would not.
I can say easily "I can take it." and find precious little to find jealousy in.
If I cannot find players for games I want to play, we could talk later.

Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.

GW is fine as a viable company for now, but is trending downward: it is less than it was.
"Most people" is rather hard to nail down.
Historical war gaming is huge, there are tons of gaming systems out there.
Case and point, a local gaming convention GW games are there (not GW representation) but obviously IS NOT the hobby.
http://www.hotlead.ca/index.htm
Happy as well to flog this event, I have so much fun with the insanely fun variety of gaming systems that work, with people who are passionate about them and acting as "ambassadors" of the hobby.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Take the video game industry for example. Back when I was young a video game (brand new) cost $20. When the average price of the game became $30, many players said OMG THAT IS CRIMINAL THIS INDUSTRY IS DEAD! Low and behold, the industry continued to thrive and thus game developers began charging $40 per game, then jumped dramatically to $60 per game. And now there are online subscriptions to contend with as well. Yet that industry still thrives despite the complaining about the price of the products. The games have gotten prettier, but on the whole there hasn't been anything really "new" in roughly ten years as far as a game goes. Sure we get new interactive ways to play the games, but they are really the same old, rehashed crap with new, fancy labeling and ways to play it.

Now with GW they are merely doing the same thing. And like the video game industry there are still a GREAT MANY people willing to pay those prices and hock $140 for the new Imperial Knight which says to GW, "How can we do more?" I'm sure their company is fine despite lower sales in recent years. They will be around for a long time yet.

I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

Now days you just put a game in your "Wishlist" on Steam and have them notify you when it is on sale...
Will GW ever have a sale?
Their idea of that is the "one click purchase" since I would get carpal tunnel from all the clicking to select all the models individually so I can get it all for the same price.

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

I was thinking the same thing. MtG packs may have gone up $1 in 20 years as well.

 Talizvar wrote:

 CaulynDarr wrote:
I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

Now days you just put a game in your "Wishlist" on Steam and have them notify you when it is on sale...
Will GW ever have a sale?
Their idea of that is the "one click purchase" since I would get carpal tunnel from all the clicking to select all the models individually so I can get it all for the same price.

Wasn't their reasoning for that some BS about how a sale would reduce the perceived quality?

WayneTheGame wrote:
Wasn't their reasoning for that some BS about how a sale would reduce the perceived quality?

Kirby speak for: "I think full price is what the market can bear and I do not want consumers holding off on a purchase waiting for a "sale" so I will not give it to them."

 Talizvar wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Wasn't their reasoning for that some BS about how a sale would reduce the perceived quality?

Kirby speak for: "I think full price is what the market can bear and I do not want consumers holding off on a purchase waiting for a "sale" so I will not give it to them."

Wow... to quote Bugs Bunny: What a maroon. So instead, people hold off on a purchase forever (and, more likely, to to a competitor) since the sale will never come, even though a bundle is not the same as a sale.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Personally, I haven't bought a GW miniature in just over a year. That purchase was the first GW purchase I had made in 3+ years prior to that.

I'm working on a new Dwarf army for WHFB, and I don't expect more than one unit will be GW miniatures. I have the FLGS order stuff for me so I still support the store, but I can't justify the GW prices for what I get.

 CaulynDarr wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
People constantly complain about the price of models, yet still pay the price to play. The only way that GW goes down is if enough people stop playing the game due to those prices. I don't think that we will ever see a drop in price on any product.

Take the video game industry for example. Back when I was young a video game (brand new) cost $20. When the average price of the game became $30, many players said OMG THAT IS CRIMINAL THIS INDUSTRY IS DEAD! Low and behold, the industry continued to thrive and thus game developers began charging $40 per game, then jumped dramatically to $60 per game. And now there are online subscriptions to contend with as well. Yet that industry still thrives despite the complaining about the price of the products. The games have gotten prettier, but on the whole there hasn't been anything really "new" in roughly ten years as far as a game goes. Sure we get new interactive ways to play the games, but they are really the same old, rehashed crap with new, fancy labeling and ways to play it.

Now with GW they are merely doing the same thing. And like the video game industry there are still a GREAT MANY people willing to pay those prices and hock $140 for the new Imperial Knight which says to GW, "How can we do more?" I'm sure their company is fine despite lower sales in recent years. They will be around for a long time yet.

I don't ever remember a AAA title costing less than $49.99 at launch. That's going all the way back to NES days. Even if my memory is fuzzy that far back, I know PS1 games retailed for that back in the late nineties. Almost 20 years ago. Given that the typical AAA game launches for 59.99 now they're probably doing better than inflation.

I've been gaming since the beginning of the NES days and they certainly were not $49.99. I remember buying SNES games brand new for $39.99 and thinking that was outrageous. But I loved to play games so I paid it. They steadily increased prices to the point they are now and each time somebody cried wolf and lots of other people threw fits but now we just accept it. GW has done the same. I haven't been playing for long (about a year now) but I understand prices have inflated a tremendous amount since the game started coming around. The point I was trying to make was that a raise in prices doesn't necessarily mean doomsday is coming for GW.

Tge cost of computer games really hasn't gone up much at all. Especially not compared to the budgets put into video games.

I remember snes games being around £40. PS1 games were about £40 on release too.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills.

One could describe playing X-box as exactly that. ... .

Don't know much about your life, but for most parents being social would generally involve meeting people.

Making models doesn't give instant gratification and the parents of those 6 other kids I mention probably all prefer it to xbox, which is banned in at least one household. Parents do of course not like the price; but in one secondary two kids have just moved to, the 40k club limits games to 500 points. One set of grandparents, parents and three or four aunties can get you a bigger army than that via one birthday and Christmas. Especially if you turn them on to Dark Sphere, and don't allow them to buy more figures before they've painted the ones they have already.

Whether you like the idea or not, it's pretty self-evident that kids are a major, and quite plausibly the major market for 40k. Dakkadakka is self-selecting and gives a biased view of who is actually buying stuff in the stores. That said, I did hear that the Young Bloods tournament last year had smaller numbers than the previous year, so it is possible that higher prices are having a detrimental effect on recruitment of younger players.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I've been gaming since the beginning of the NES days and they certainly were not $49.99. I remember buying SNES games brand new for $39.99 and thinking that was outrageous. But I loved to play games so I paid it. They steadily increased prices to the point they are now and each time somebody cried wolf and lots of other people threw fits but now we just accept it. GW has done the same. I haven't been playing for long (about a year now) but I understand prices have inflated a tremendous amount since the game started coming around. The point I was trying to make was that a raise in prices doesn't necessarily mean doomsday is coming for GW.

Doing a quick toys 'r us catalog search on Google I see prices of SEGA and SNES games averaged around $49.99- $59.99 for new games. I've seen these catalog images before and I always go "wow games were always that expensive?" but I guess that explains why my parents just had us rent games from Blockbuster.

Video games seem to have some sort of recognized price-threshold they don't move past for new video games. They go beyond this by selling collector's editions, pre-orders, and other paraphernalia that die-hard fans would enjoy.

GW has increased the prices on their kits way beyond inflation. They have done this through regular price increases, increases associated with dual-kits (which while more ubiquitous, function primarily to get more dollars per unit sold), and unit-reduction to mask increases (i.e. new Dire Avengers). None of these things means doomsday for GW, but I think there is an argument to be made that they are quickly hitting a purchasing cliff if they continue making these manner of price increases.

I've loved GW games and I've paid for quite a while (this doesn't make my opinion stronger, I'm just illustrating my position). The prices have increased, others have complained and I've thought "geez this stuff is getting expensive." for me personally, it's getting to the point that those Dark Eldar warriors, while beautiful and well-made kits, are only worth so much money before even I am asking myself "what the hell am I throwing all this money away for on a couple of models?"

blingman wrote:
This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact..

The really interesting thing about these 'anti-GW threads' is that many of the people who complain about what GW does are not, in fact, anti-GW.

People complain when they see GW doing something stupid because they have an investment in what GW does. I've been playing 40K for 20 years now. I would like nothing more than for GW to do well and continue producing quality product.

The reason I complain now is that I see them releasing a lot of product that is not the quality I have come to expect from them. And because they've just spent the last couple of years implementing business changes that I can only see as damaging to the 40K-playing community.

There is no 'jealousy' involved here. I don't own a competing wargaming company, so have nothing to be 'jealous' about. If GW can turn their current apparent downward spiral around and go back to producing stuff I like, I'll be as happy as a happy thing in a little happy place of happiness.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills.

One could describe playing X-box as exactly that. ... .

I like how two different people have quoted my post, choosing to edit out the second sentence of a two sentence post. A sentence which, quite critically, indicates that the first sentence was intended to be somewhat sardonic.

I have to chime in on this thread. Mind you this is all my general opinion, but every aspect of the hobby and what it has become has tied together.

I've been buying and playing GW games for the better part of 8 years now. Not as long as some of the true vets on here, but a pretty decent amount of time. I used to predominantly play 40k back then ('Nids) and I had opponents who played Catachans, Tau, Space Wolves, and Eldar.

My friends have moved on, moved away. My younger brother is too "cool" for it now. But I have other friends who play. But we switched to Fantasy, the rich man's hobby and thinking man's game, imo. I have three armies, Skaven, Ogres, and Dwarfs. My opponents play High Elves, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen.

It is difficult - VERY difficult - to get friends who are interested to commit. They like the game, the models, the concept, but they see the prices of a 1,000 pt. army and they emphatically go "WHOAAAA, NOOOO." (and 1000 pts. is a relatively SMALL game/army!) and go spend their money on the latest garbage video game.

I think that, coupled with society's technological-based attitude as a whole (seriously, I never see kids playing outside anymore, they're all inside cursing at each other on Call of Duty.) makes wargaming in general kind of a niche hobby, unfortunately. I sound like an Old Grumbler, but nobody wants to use their imagination anymore. While geek culture is more accepted than it was, even sort of a pop movement now, people would rather watch Michael Bay-esque over-the-top explosions on an HD TV while controlling a superhuman, machine-gun toting action-hero, mowing down swathes of enemies in sprays of gore. They want to SEE it, not imagine it on a tabletop.

Let me paint a quick analogy here. It's like the comparison from the original Star Wars movies to the video game Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. One used clever puppets, cinematography, etc., to spark the imagination and portray the Force in a subtle but powerful manner. The other has Starkiller effortlessly ROFLSTOMPING the most powerful figures in the Star Wars universe, clinging to walls with the Force like Spider-Man, pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky, punting Jawas and cutting ATAT's in half. It's not only disgustingly over-the-top just for cheap thrills, it's slaughtering the lore utterly and peeing on it with steroid-soaked urine.

This is contributing, I think. Games Workshop not selling bitz anymore (I was SO disappointed when I came back to the hobby and found them all gone, the tutorials for terrain all gone, the online scenarios, all gone) and I wondered what had happened. Gone are the days where I can order a kit to make Ghoritch, Castellan of Hell Pit, and field his army of monstrosities using rules from White Dwarf. Their attitude towards the people who play their game has changed, and it has changed drastically. Newer players, I challenge you to go online to the wayback machine and look up the old GW website. It wasn't just a catalog like it is now.

Power creep is influencing the rules in a negative manner, D-Weapons in a regular 40K game, yay! Fortunately the power creep is not THAT bad for Fantasy. I don't know IF they playtest, or WHO playtests, but they fail as well. There are several units that are (depending on opinion) almost-broken or just flat out broken to the point where their rules should never have been released in that state. Geedub could benefit GREATLY from closer interaction with their own fanbase. When video games make a sequel, as a general rule if they want to succeed they need to listen to the fans and what they want, while still developing new IP. It's hard, but it can be done... Step 1 is LISTENING TO YOUR FANBASE.

As for GW going under, I'd still be terribly disheartened if it happened. I don't want to have to resort to Fandexes (good luck balancing THOSE when people can't agree on ANYTHING online) to play my army in a couple years, and with no updates, Warhammer will stagnate. I've looked into other games - X-Wing and Warmahordes, but they just flat out don't interest me like Warhammer. Far as I'm concerned nobody does fantasy armies like GW. Nobody. I don't want to lose that.

But something has to change. It has to. I'm hoping the CEOs and shareholders will eventually look towards longevity instead of squeezing the company dry before leaving the husk behind. Am I concerned with these parallels with TSR? Absolutely. OP makes valid points. I'm not ashamed to admit that for me wargaming IS Warhammer. It always has been. I need that creative outlet. Hell, to motivate my opponents, who have NO interest or patience with assembling/painting their armies, I even do that! Whatever gets them to play! I hate paying the prices. I hate it. But I want to play the game. The hobby, the painting, converting, I love all of it. Is my scope limited? Absolutely. I'd try other games, but while GW is still standing, those models and fluff are my unequivocal favorite and they take financial priority whenever I have some spending money.

Tl;dr: Games Workshops attitude to its customers has changed DRASTICALLY in just a few years. They've switched focus from selling and gaming to just SELLING SELLING SELLING. That is coupled with a shift into even higher focus from the imaginary to the pixellated hyper-explosion realm. GW needs to listen to its fanbase and return to being a gaming company if they want to pull themselves out of this hole they're in. I went on a bit of a tirade here, but I think everything is all related, contributing to wargaming's decline, and it makes me sad.

It is just hard to see something you once enjoyed to devolve to something you really don't care about anymore.

It is even harder to experience it twice.

Really hope GW smartens up.

 Accolade wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I've been gaming since the beginning of the NES days and they certainly were not $49.99. I remember buying SNES games brand new for $39.99 and thinking that was outrageous. But I loved to play games so I paid it. They steadily increased prices to the point they are now and each time somebody cried wolf and lots of other people threw fits but now we just accept it. GW has done the same. I haven't been playing for long (about a year now) but I understand prices have inflated a tremendous amount since the game started coming around. The point I was trying to make was that a raise in prices doesn't necessarily mean doomsday is coming for GW.

Doing a quick toys 'r us catalog search on Google I see prices of SEGA and SNES games averaged around $49.99- $59.99 for new games. I've seen these catalog images before and I always go "wow games were always that expensive?" but I guess that explains why my parents just had us rent games from Blockbuster.

Video games seem to have some sort of recognized price-threshold they don't move past for new video games. They go beyond this by selling collector's editions, pre-orders, and other paraphernalia that die-hard fans would enjoy.

GW has increased the prices on their kits way beyond inflation. They have done this through regular price increases, increases associated with dual-kits (which while more ubiquitous, function primarily to get more dollars per unit sold), and unit-reduction to mask increases (i.e. new Dire Avengers). None of these things means doomsday for GW, but I think there is an argument to be made that they are quickly hitting a purchasing cliff if they continue making these manner of price increases.

I've loved GW games and I've paid for quite a while (this doesn't make my opinion stronger, I'm just illustrating my position). The prices have increased, others have complained and I've thought "geez this stuff is getting expensive." for me personally, it's getting to the point that those Dark Eldar warriors, while beautiful and well-made kits, are only worth so much money before even I am asking myself "what the hell am I throwing all this money away for on a couple of models?"

Games have rised in price lower than inflation meaning in real terms we are paying less for them.

TheBrandedOne wrote:

Spoiler:

I have to chime in on this thread. Mind you this is all my general opinion, but every aspect of the hobby and what it has become has tied together.

I've been buying and playing GW games for the better part of 8 years now. Not as long as some of the true vets on here, but a pretty decent amount of time. I used to predominantly play 40k back then ('Nids) and I had opponents who played Catachans, Tau, Space Wolves, and Eldar.

My friends have moved on, moved away. My younger brother is too "cool" for it now. But I have other friends who play. But we switched to Fantasy, the rich man's hobby and thinking man's game, imo. I have three armies, Skaven, Ogres, and Dwarfs. My opponents play High Elves, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen.

It is difficult - VERY difficult - to get friends who are interested to commit. They like the game, the models, the concept, but they see the prices of a 1,000 pt. army and they emphatically go "WHOAAAA, NOOOO." (and 1000 pts. is a relatively SMALL game/army!) and go spend their money on the latest garbage video game.

I think that, coupled with society's technological-based attitude as a whole (seriously, I never see kids playing outside anymore, they're all inside cursing at each other on Call of Duty.) makes wargaming in general kind of a niche hobby, unfortunately. I sound like an Old Grumbler, but nobody wants to use their imagination anymore. While geek culture is more accepted than it was, even sort of a pop movement now, people would rather watch Michael Bay-esque over-the-top explosions on an HD TV while controlling a superhuman, machine-gun toting action-hero, mowing down swathes of enemies in sprays of gore. They want to SEE it, not imagine it on a tabletop.

Let me paint a quick analogy here. It's like the comparison from the original Star Wars movies to the video game Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. One used clever puppets, cinematography, etc., to spark the imagination and portray the Force in a subtle but powerful manner. The other has Starkiller effortlessly ROFLSTOMPING the most powerful figures in the Star Wars universe, clinging to walls with the Force like Spider-Man, pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky, punting Jawas and cutting ATAT's in half. It's not only disgustingly over-the-top just for cheap thrills, it's slaughtering the lore utterly and peeing on it with steroid-soaked urine.

This is contributing, I think. Games Workshop not selling bitz anymore (I was SO disappointed when I came back to the hobby and found them all gone, the tutorials for terrain all gone, the online scenarios, all gone) and I wondered what had happened. Gone are the days where I can order a kit to make Ghoritch, Castellan of Hell Pit, and field his army of monstrosities using rules from White Dwarf. Their attitude towards the people who play their game has changed, and it has changed drastically. Newer players, I challenge you to go online to the wayback machine and look up the old GW website. It wasn't just a catalog like it is now.

Power creep is influencing the rules in a negative manner, D-Weapons in a regular 40K game, yay! Fortunately the power creep is not THAT bad for Fantasy. I don't know IF they playtest, or WHO playtests, but they fail as well. There are several units that are (depending on opinion) almost-broken or just flat out broken to the point where their rules should never have been released in that state. Geedub could benefit GREATLY from closer interaction with their own fanbase. When video games make a sequel, as a general rule if they want to succeed they need to listen to the fans and what they want, while still developing new IP. It's hard, but it can be done... Step 1 is LISTENING TO YOUR FANBASE.

As for GW going under, I'd still be terribly disheartened if it happened. I don't want to have to resort to Fandexes (good luck balancing THOSE when people can't agree on ANYTHING online) to play my army in a couple years, and with no updates, Warhammer will stagnate. I've looked into other games - X-Wing and Warmahordes, but they just flat out don't interest me like Warhammer. Far as I'm concerned nobody does fantasy armies like GW. Nobody. I don't want to lose that.

But something has to change. It has to. I'm hoping the CEOs and shareholders will eventually look towards longevity instead of squeezing the company dry before leaving the husk behind. Am I concerned with these parallels with TSR? Absolutely. OP makes valid points. I'm not ashamed to admit that for me wargaming IS Warhammer. It always has been. I need that creative outlet. Hell, to motivate my opponents, who have NO interest or patience with assembling/painting their armies, I even do that! Whatever gets them to play! I hate paying the prices. I hate it. But I want to play the game. The hobby, the painting, converting, I love all of it. Is my scope limited? Absolutely. I'd try other games, but while GW is still standing, those models and fluff are my unequivocal favorite and they take financial priority whenever I have some spending money.

Tl;dr: Games Workshops attitude to its customers has changed DRASTICALLY in just a few years. They've switched focus from selling and gaming to just SELLING SELLING SELLING. That is coupled with a shift into even higher focus from the imaginary to the pixellated hyper-explosion realm. GW needs to listen to its fanbase and return to being a gaming company if they want to pull themselves out of this hole they're in. I went on a bit of a tirade here, but I think everything is all related, contributing to wargaming's decline, and it makes me sad.

blingman wrote:
This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.
It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.
Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.

Yeah, sure. Everybody critizising the decisions of his holiness Tom Kirby is just jealous of the British Empire rising to world domination
Must be a new low. Is there a "negative exalt" button?

Your apparent hatred of Spelljammer makes me a little sad and does make me question a few of your points even if the overall idea may be valid.

Spelljammer was awesome, despite a few rough points! I think i saw a comment by one of the designers (Jeff Grubb?) that it was intentionally an effort to get a bunch of cool stuff in under the management radar. It'd be kind of like if GW somehow produced a cool side-game or variant that had a lot of weird fan-appeal (which was pretty much how I heard Apocalypse described by some here when it first came out).

Buck Rogers products were pretty inevitably tainted at TSR (from what I've heard) as they got seen as a way to keep milking Lorraine William's family-owned IP instead of focusing on TSR's own properties.

I would like to second the sentiment of disappointment.
My first exposure to Games Workshop was the original printing of Talisman. If not for that, I'd never have purchased White Dwarf (there were nifty "free" expansions for Talisman in several of the issues). I never would have been enticed by WFB. I never would have read 'Into The Maelstrom' in Inferno! #4, from which I began playing 40K, Necromunda, BFG, Inquisitor...

Something I have enjoyed for almost twenty years has turned into something I can no longer afford to play. And it wasn't a tough decision. I just couldn't afford it any longer, so I had to let it go.