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If people want to protest the prices with some hope of an effect, I suggest the following method.

Whenever you buy a non-GW product, write an email to GW saying you have bought X because it is cheaper than their product Y. Enclose a copy of your receipt.

Clearly this only really applies to substitution products. GW won't give a feth if you buy two complete armies for DBA and two sets of the rules instead of a Knight Titan. But they might care if you bought a Gundam to use as a Knight Titan.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If people want to protest the prices with some hope of an effect, I suggest the following method.

Whenever you buy a non-GW product, write an email to GW saying you have bought X because it is cheaper than their product Y. Enclose a copy of your receipt.

Clearly this only really applies to substitution products. GW won't give a feth if you buy two complete armies for DBA and two sets of the rules instead of a Knight Titan. But they might care if you bought a Gundam to use as a Knight Titan.

When I first started boycotting GW because of the Chaperhouse lawsuit that is exactly what I did. The first time I did it I got personal call from customer service within a week. That kind of stuff sends up red flags with GW customer service at any rate. Not that they could do anything about my comprehensive criticism of GW's litigation, but they listened.

My initial correspondence had a bit more of a bite to it because rather than mentioning a cheaper alternative I said that I had refrained from making X, Y, and Z planned purchases and was instead deliberately using the money to by my first starter sets for competing game systems.

I am not doing anything as noble or planned out as as boycotting GW. I am just not buying stuff from them anymore because its not worth the money to me.

 carlos13th wrote:
I am not doing anything as noble or planned out as as boycotting GW. I am just not buying stuff from them anymore because its not worth the money to me.

Pretty much this.

I don't deliberately avoid purchasing, I just have things I'd prefer to buy elsewhere.

That said, if they do release something I think is of sufficient quality at the right price, I will buy it* because that sends just as strong a message.

Doesn't happen often.

*from a discounter if possible.

 azreal13 wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
I am not doing anything as noble or planned out as as boycotting GW. I am just not buying stuff from them anymore because its not worth the money to me.

Pretty much this.

I don't deliberately avoid purchasing, I just have things I'd prefer to buy elsewhere.

That said, if they do release something I think is of sufficient quality at the right price, I will buy it* because that sends just as strong a message.

Doesn't happen often.

*from a discounter if possible.

TBH its unlikely for me to buy anything from them even good quality at the right price because I probably would have no use for it.

 frozenwastes wrote:
You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR.

Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

What I meant was yes there is a strong community (including retro) but nothing new is coming out with the TSR imprint on it. Mordheim has a similar strong online community that has taken up the ball.

Online D&D is different though. Most off the materials are print, and the miniatures can be has anywhere (like Reaper), so the continuing support from the community can foster the genre and even make it grow. 40k, on the other hand, is very reliant on the models and while the community could carry the torch on the rules, if GW weren't there is would be hard for it to grow further, like RPGs, because the models would cease to be available.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR.

Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

What I meant was yes there is a strong community (including retro) but nothing new is coming out with the TSR imprint on it. Mordheim has a similar strong online community that has taken up the ball.

Online D&D is different though. Most off the materials are print, and the miniatures can be has anywhere (like Reaper), so the continuing support from the community can foster the genre and even make it grow. 40k, on the other hand, is very reliant on the models and while the community could carry the torch on the rules, if GW weren't there is would be hard for it to grow further, like RPGs, because the models would cease to be available.

Well, first you are forgetting things like Vassal 40K. Second, there are plenty of artists well-equipped to make gorgeous work inspired by the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 fictional universes. There's a great deal of it on the market already.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR.

Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

What I meant was yes there is a strong community (including retro) but nothing new is coming out with the TSR imprint on it. Mordheim has a similar strong online community that has taken up the ball.

But, you don't need any of that to keep playing. All you need is the core rules and an imagination.

This is similar to tabletop games. You don't need GW miniatures to play 40K or WHFB. There will always be other companies making things that are close enough.

Saldiven wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR.

Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

What I meant was yes there is a strong community (including retro) but nothing new is coming out with the TSR imprint on it. Mordheim has a similar strong online community that has taken up the ball.

But, you don't need any of that to keep playing. All you need is the core rules and an imagination.

This is similar to tabletop games. You don't need GW miniatures to play 40K or WHFB. There will always be other companies making things that are close enough.

The difference is that D&D was always mostly imagination, and just the rules you were using changed; there were people who were playing the same campaign with the same characters across multiple D&D editions, because ultimately the rules don't matter.

This not the case with 40k.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR.

Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

What I meant was yes there is a strong community (including retro) but nothing new is coming out with the TSR imprint on it. Mordheim has a similar strong online community that has taken up the ball.

But, you don't need any of that to keep playing. All you need is the core rules and an imagination.

This is similar to tabletop games. You don't need GW miniatures to play 40K or WHFB. There will always be other companies making things that are close enough.

The difference is that D&D was always mostly imagination, and just the rules you were using changed; there were people who were playing the same campaign with the same characters across multiple D&D editions, because ultimately the rules don't matter.

This not the case with 40k.

Correct. Take away the minis from 40k and you're not left with much. Keep the minis and you can come up with all kinds of rules, but keep the rules and not the minis and you're playing a whole of things that don't really look like they belong in the setting. My generic fantasy elves with guns just wouldn't be Eldar for me.

I disagree.

Except for Tyranids, there are reasonable substitutes available for all the GW models in 40K -- especially the Imperial armies -- and I would bet that Fantasy is even easier.

It's certainly possible to make entire SM and IG armies from non-GW kits. I would even go so far as to point out that if you want a Squat army, GW does not serve at all, while Hasslefree and Ollies Armies both offer nice figures.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I disagree.

Except for Tyranids, there are reasonable substitutes available for all the GW models in 40K -- especially the Imperial armies -- and I would bet that Fantasy is even easier.

It's certainly possible to make entire SM and IG armies from non-GW kits. I would even go so far as to point out that if you want a Squat army, GW does not serve at all, while Hasslefree and Ollies Armies both offer nice figures.

True and while I disagree that taking away the miniatures isn't a big deal, I think taking away the fluff/background is, because that *is* 40k to me (shoddy rules aside). I have no qualms about using third party miniatures for Guard, or Space Marines or whatever, but I don't think it'd be as easy to play let's say Mantic's Warpath with 40k armies (even though there are fanmade army lists) and get the same feel as playing a game of 40k, even if the rules were better.

There is a heap of published fluff in the form of old codexes, rulebooks and Black Library novels.

Given all that, I don't see why people need more "official GW 40K fluff", especially when the timeline doesn't advance and the fluff doesn't affect the game rules.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a heap of published fluff in the form of old codexes, rulebooks and Black Library novels.

Given all that, I don't see why people need more "official GW 40K fluff", especially when the timeline doesn't advance and the fluff doesn't affect the game rules.

Best argument for advancing the timeline ever.

I would be all for them advancing the timeline instead of the patchwork approach they seem to be having.

Only x amount of landspeeders ohh look they found this new type collecting dust in the garage.

They could advance the timeline 50
years to 1 and nothing would necessarily
change so flagrantly.

The only issue would be balancing the
differing lifespans

 MWHistorian wrote:

Correct. Take away the minis from 40k and you're not left with much.

I disagree. The 40k universe is very rich, few fictional worlds have as much colour and depth as the 41st Millenium. I play Rogue Trader with tokens and it is still very firmly a 40k game, in fact it is probably more '40k' than the tabletop game is. The tabletop game is obviously highly dependent upon the miniatures but 40k is much more than little bits of plastic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a heap of published fluff in the form of old codexes, rulebooks and Black Library novels.

Given all that, I don't see why people need more "official GW 40K fluff", especially when the timeline doesn't advance and the fluff doesn't affect the game rules.

And everything since grey knights has been an abortion of fluff or just recycled.

I'm also at the point where I buy very little GW product. What I do still buy is Forgeworld. FW seems to be the last bastion of the old GW, where the designers still care enough to make good models and a fun game (Horus Heresy) and actually communicate with their customers.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I'm also at the point where I buy very little GW product. What I do still buy is Forgeworld. FW seems to be the last bastion of the old GW, where the designers still care enough to make good models and a fun game (Horus Heresy) and actually communicate with their customers.

Again, QFT.

We might complain about the price of the models GW pushes out but at the end of the day, while we might complain about the prices, all we really want is a little love. We want to know the people we're buying from care as much as we do. People might look at Forgeworld prices and be sad it's so expensive, but very few people also don't find the value in the price at the same time. It's kind of a weird dichotomy if you think about it.

 Palindrome wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Correct. Take away the minis from 40k and you're not left with much.

I disagree. The 40k universe is very rich, few fictional worlds have as much colour and depth as the 41st Millenium. I play Rogue Trader with tokens and it is still very firmly a 40k game, in fact it is probably more '40k' than the tabletop game is. The tabletop game is obviously highly dependent upon the miniatures but 40k is much more than little bits of plastic.

I was referring to the game itself, not the IP.
I value the universe more than the game itself.

To get this back on topic, the D&D to 40k parallel related to TSR and GW is related to the idea about whether or not 40k as a miniatures game would survive a major change to GW as D&D survived a major change to TSR. This is in the "how will this all turn out?" approach to the topic.

The worst case scenario for the survival of 40k as a game is not the collapse of GW, but it's survival in its current form with its current approach. GW is slowly grinding away the player base and turning good will into negativity.

TSR era D&D survived TSR's transition from a failing company into being part of WotC because people still really loved the game and lots of people still played it. Wizards bougth WotC, relaunched the core books of AD&D2E and then released 3.0 a few years later into a market that was healthy with demand for D&D. D&D 3.0 went on to satisfy many existing AD&D players as well as attracted a whole new generation into D&D. And those who loved pre-3.0 D&D could use the new open gaming license to bring a version of rules they liked back into print.

Will such an opportunity exist for 40k if GW continues to grind away the player base?

The real threat to the long term viability of 40k as a miniatures game is the damage to the community from the current approach to the game. This idea that 40k customers are primarily in the hobby of buying GW's miniatures and the resulting decisions about vast portions of the 40k experience (like the game) being side shows.

By the time the question of 40k's future beyond the failure of GW in it's current form comes up, will there be enough of a player base left to form the community needed to support it as a fan initiative?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to Forgeworld, I think it being the last bastion of GW's former approach to their products raises an interesting contrast between TSR and GW.

Was there an analogous body within TSR that still had a vibrant approach to D&D?

If the rumour that Forge World products are going to be more integrated into GW's website in the future is true, will that also mean that they will be integrated more completely into GW's current studio and production approach? Will this last bastion of a vibrant approach to 40k survive such an integration?

Integration can only help. Vendors feel as alienated as the players. Maybe even more so. First they pulled their advanced demo kits, then tourney support, and then refused accessibility to things like the flyer book. Vendors cannot shelve forgeworld products. There is no vendor discount thus no profit margin to be had without marking it up beyond msrp. TSR never attacked those who sold their products. At least not to where anyone noticed.

furthermore to address the concept of who could afford the buyout. If im not mistaken hasbro owns wotc. Im pretty sure they could buy 40k if they tanked. Cardboard crack has been good to them. Maybe disney could as they have expanded into mainstream comic books and star wars. Not too far of a stretch to make the emperor's favorite daughter a disney princess, with her children the blood angels.

lastly hong kong knockoffs, lego fantasy armies, 3rd party mini and other army subs are relevant. Without gw supporting tourneys anymore TOs are not required to enforce a presence of a percentage of GW models. They only enforce wysiwyg. So GW saves 50 bucks per store per month. GW loses a bunch of business with these alternatives for players and yet even more business when people quit playing because they paid full price for their army and feel slighted when someone shows up with plastic army men and model kit tanks from hobby lobby. It happens in friendly games often and is rank at tourneys,

My view is that there is usually a point at which a game is "done", and further changes start to degrade the rules from their peak by adding unnecessary complexity and more units for a Monty Haul effect.

I would hold up Star Fire, RuneQuest (RPG) and Basic Squad Leader as games that went past their peak, got too big and stopped being as fun as the previous edition. Hardly anyone plays those games any more.

WRG's DBA, and the Fire and Fury rules, are games that pretty much achieved their peak and stopped. The designers moved on to other games, but loads of people still play the DBA and F&F.

I understand GW's argument that people would get bored of the game if they did not keep changing it. That is self-serving, of course, because people can play a different game if they get bored, but GW don't want the trouble and expense of inventing different games any more, so they just keep making changes to their existing game.

Unfortunately, GW have managed the trick of modifying the game to make it worse by making it bigger and too complex and expensive, without having got the core rules to a good peak first.

The game would be a lot more interesting if, for example, the UGOIGO was replaced by a system of unit activation by cards. That would be easy and cheap to implement. GW could put snazzy cards into every unit box and sell spares separately for old armies. But GW want to implement complex and expensive things, like the Knight Titan, which is designed to make everyone buy Escalation.

I accept that, as a business, GW want to maximise their profits. However I am not a shareholder and I only care about how GW can maximise my game playing enjoyment.

GW, like TSR, have got to the point where most of the stuff they are publishing is irrelevant and even in some ways detrimental to my interest in their game.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The real threat to the long term viability of 40k as a miniatures game is the damage to the community from the current approach to the game. This idea that 40k customers are primarily in the hobby of buying GW's miniatures and the resulting decisions about vast portions of the 40k experience (like the game) being side shows.

Could not agree more, exalted!

A lot of people are in the hobby of buying 40K models. Someone who has bought 10,000 points of a single army has far many more models than they would need for playing games. There's nothing wrong with that as such, most wargamers are terrible hoarders (or horde-rs?!?)

But the company operating on the assumption that those people are their target market is terrible for the company's health.

They think that the people spending the most money don't have a crap about the game rules, which leads to minimal effort being put into them, and that drives people away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and that is especially true if they think their customers are in the hobby of buying GW products.
Where is the incentive to be better then their competition?
Where is the reason to produce good models instead of pumping out whatever crap and sticking a GW logo on it?

I have around 75k points... but most of it comes from craigslist and rage quitters. Im about to ebay most of it due to 40k being dead around here. I am the hoarder you speak of and I am ashamed. I exalted you all. Great input.

Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of people are in the hobby of buying 40K models. Someone who has bought 10,000 points of a single army has far many more models than they would need for playing games. There's nothing wrong with that as such, most wargamers are terrible hoarders (or horde-rs?!?)

Do you want your tendency to do so to cause less resources or care to be put into the game play because the real hobby is just buying miniatures?

What I mean by hoarding is that for example in my own case there are about 20 different armies, navies, factions or other collections of figures of various scales for different games in my “collection”.

These include about 3,000 points of 5th edition Tyranids and about 3,000 points of 3rd/4th edition Tau, plus a fairly random but substantial number of SM infantry figures ranging from the original pre-RT days through Space Hulk Terminators to the SMs out of the 6th edition starter game. There were also several historical armies that I completed and sold off in the past. (And regret doing so.)

While this is a pretty substantial collection, it has been bought over the decades with the idea of making rational armies for actual games, not because I wanted the latest cool model kit or figure from X. When involved in clubs, it is pretty standard to change games occasionally because who wants to play just one system for their whole life? And you keep your old armies because you often go back to them after a few years, or switch to a different set of rules that can use the same models.

Lots of wargamers are like me, and we are no longer the target market for GW.