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 DukeRustfield wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Just a quick disagreement - it's REALLY good against dwarfs actually, because literally every item with a rune counts as being magical.

I understand how the rules work. Dwarfs don't need offensive weapon runes. Hammerers are still stupid good without them. Ironbreakers are still stupid good without them. Drakes are. Gyros are. You can still have your runepriests with bonuses to dispel, banners, armor. Only if you're taking a rune item and trying to beat someone on the head with it, which Dwarfs absolutely don't have to do. It's a ward vs. wounds caused by.

Heavy armour for example is typically 2-5pts/model, so your cost vs. effectiveness ratio doesn't fluctuate that much.

It can be up to 25%. In a 2K point game, 500pts doing absolutely nothing whatsoever is an awful lot.

I'm not disagreeing with the units carrying them, I'm saying that war machine shooting is all but useless against a unit with the banner, as it will almost always be magical (unless osmeone out there is seriously running a cannon without rune of forging or organ gun with rune of accuracy). No way is any Dwarf unit going to beat a big unit of white lions fighting in 3 ranks hitting at S6 at I5 going to win unless either the dice fail the elves or they're whittled down by shooting first.

Yes, we understand if you take magic, it does poorly against an anti-magic banner. That's one of the points of this thread. Dwarfs don't have to take magic. Not offensive magic.

As for losing, Hammerers and Ironbreakers are pretty identical to White Lions. GW has the books, you know, and they're both really new. 3 ranks of WL is Hammerers with 2 attacks--except they need 3 ranks. WS5, S6, higher I, lower LD. Lower banner allowance. T is higher for hammerers but at S6 doesn't matter. But it does if they fight other stuff on the way or in the battle. Ironbreakers only have one attack and S4, but +1LD and a 5+ parry. The WL would have a 6+ save but so would IB.

As a High Elf player, I never take the BotWD.

I have had opponents complain about it and even in local tournaments I will not carry the banner.

It is not essential to the army winning and frankly it might make HE generals play sloppier because of the relative safety it provides one unit.

Upping its cost to 100pts seems reasonable to me. Makes it a BSB only item which debunks the possible combinations and means it is on a naked Noble or Seahelm.

Even with that, I find the banner to be a lazy item. The creators just slapped some words on the paper and printed it, in my opinion. Changing the wording to just magic resistance and protection from magic WEAPONS is one thing, but frankly it is still too cheap at 50 pts.

Even at 100pts it's too cheap vs. DoC. It just wasn't thought out.

I mean army-wide Hatred is kinda buff. But as big a unit as you can stuff having a 2+ ward vs. just about anything you can throw is insane.

To be fair a lot of the things in the new HE book are not that well thought out... But the Banner is king of the hill.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Even at 100pts it's too cheap vs. DoC. It just wasn't thought out.

I mean army-wide Hatred is kinda buff. But as big a unit as you can stuff having a 2+ ward vs. just about anything you can throw is insane.

If the HE player is simply shoving it in a massive unit of 40+ dudes I consider myself lucky as I can at least play a chaff & avoid game, (as long as they've neglected their own chaff/chaff removers), despite how mind numbingly dull it gets after the 2nd turn.

It's much, much worse when the HE player puts it on a unit of just 21-24 WL's, as then they have the pts for a good sized brick of Phoenix Guard, plus the ability to put up a gunline of Bolters/Archers/Sisters and their Light Council magic phase.
Not only do you get savaged at range, but it's simply impossible to try and combat those buggers with their WS10/I10 + Pha's Protection bubbles. Why bother even fighting the combat when it's to that point of requiring 6's to even hit, while you get chopped up on 3's w/re-rolls? (WL's excepted)

We're a combat army, but HE's overall are a better one, as well as owning us in the Shooting & Magic phases. The Banner helps to make it even more painfully obvious which book is better.

Hopefully the new Exalted Flamer rules from WD7 can even the match-up a little bit, as they're quite spammable and can allow Daemons to put down a gunline of their own... but it'll still be a boring game of, "who's bucket of dice rolls best?"

As a unit comparison, if you take a warriors of chaos daemon prince jeweled up to tits, what in the game is a GOOD counter for it? Not just tying it down with chaff/tarpit.

MULTIPLE. UNIT. TACTICS.

You don't throw one unit at him and QQ it doesn't kill him, same way you don't throw JUST magic at 24 white lions with banner. Get flanks, get rears for feth's sake, shoot it with non magic shooting, chariot charge it.

Blackguard and witch elves, feth even dreadspears or bleakswords will do a number on this unit.

And don't bring up "WS10/I10 + pha's protection like it's a constant, ALL armies that can take light wizards can do that combo.

Consider the 24 WL without world dragon, just WS10/I10 + pha's protection. What magic can you NOW throw at it consistently that you couldn't with the banner?

Magic missiles and direct damage? Who has enough of that to decimate 24 WL? And I mean really enough, to kill the unit in 1-2 turns?

Necro spamming vampire counts armies, maybe?

If your opponent is taking BotWD and you play daemons guess what, you're in for a hard ride.

If you take a magic heavily reliable army like vampire counts or HE/DE/Lizards, and you face dwarfs? Guess what. Hard ride.

Certain books DO face a bit of a tougher fight against certain books.

Gee I wish I could ignore the magic item duplicate rules. Oh wait, daemons can do that with greater gift!

If I don't take council of light with HE, I am fethed against WoC's daemon prince, I am fethed against DoC daemon prince and greater daemons.

Face it, unless your opponents take lore of light, you are at an advantage if you play WoC or DoC.

Unfortunately that comes at a cost against BotWD armies, and BotWD armies alone.

if you take a warriors of chaos daemon prince jeweled up to tits, what in the game is a GOOD counter for it?

A DP is a monster with no LoS and relatively low wounds and T. And you're comparing your general, who is going to cost around 500+pts and if he dies you're 100% game over to a unit of Specials? Does that seem a valid comparison? Reminds me of the old Teclis arguments. "He's totally balanced, you just need TACTICS."

The DP It has a million ways to kill it. And the BoTWD with nearly anything inside is one cuz he can't do a damn thing except cry big daemon tears.

I'd also point out that an army that's heavily reliant on magic, like Vampire Counts, facing off against Dwarfs, is a lot different than the situation involved in the BoTWD versus Daemons.

In the first scenario, things might get kinda' tough. Vampires'll only get one spell in three off. They'll have less models, or less buffs, or both.

In the second, though? There's just a big ol' block of models the Daemons have to hide from. It's not that those Daemons are at -1S, or have ASL, or take D6 S5 hits a turn. The unit just has a 2+ Ward save. A 2+. 2.

And as far as "multiple unit tactics" goes...that's stupid. Sorry, but it is.
"just charge it in the rear". Really? Really, now? I mean, isn't it safe to assume that, hm, maybe--just maybe--my opponent is going to implement "multiple unit tactics" as well? Aren't they going to have Eagles and Phoenix and Reavers and more? ...pretty sure the answer is a resounding "yes. duh."

High Elves should never lose big to Daemons outside of the Cacobomb build in all honesty.

HE's win the movement phase expect vs. mono-Slaanesh.
HE's win the shooting phase hands down. (new Elated Flamer isn't anywhere near enough to even things up.)
HE's have a better Magic phase, including access the Death (making Nurgle weep), Shadow (Miasma will help kill Slaany's movement & -S/T hexes), Light (Daemons just cry), High (a great toolbox lore + ward save building attribute), while large Cavbus builds can feature Beasts.
HE's also have the far superior chaff & chaff removal games by far. Between Core Reavers, Archers & Silverdarts, plus solo Eagles, mass Bolters AND Sisters. Added to the MM's/Direct Damage spells of the Magic phase, if you can't clear Daemonic chaff within 2 turns then either the dice are simply kicking you, or you're doing it wrong.
HE's then out-melee what is still essentially a melee centric army thanks to ASF + elven stats combined with Martial Prowess allowing for frontage denial.

The WorldCrutch Banner is simply the final kick in the balls that no DoC player enjoys facing, as it makes an already tough match-up into a complete farce.


While Dark Elves present many of the same problems, they at least still keep to the inherent 'glass cannon' styles that elves are known for.
High Elves on the other hand trade re-roll 1's to-wound for an added rank of attacks, and then gain better armour saves, better ward saves, two amazing SC's (one of whom simply destroys Daemons outright) and the game's most powerful magic item.

Warpsolution wrote:
I'd also point out that an army that's heavily reliant on magic, like Vampire Counts, facing off against Dwarfs, is a lot different than the situation involved in the BoTWD versus Daemons.

In the first scenario, things might get kinda' tough. Vampires'll only get one spell in three off. They'll have less models, or less buffs, or both.

In the second, though? There's just a big ol' block of models the Daemons have to hide from. It's not that those Daemons are at -1S, or have ASL, or take D6 S5 hits a turn. The unit just has a 2+ Ward save. A 2+. 2.

And as far as "multiple unit tactics" goes...that's stupid. Sorry, but it is.
"just charge it in the rear". Really? Really, now? I mean, isn't it safe to assume that, hm, maybe--just maybe--my opponent is going to implement "multiple unit tactics" as well? Aren't they going to have Eagles and Phoenix and Reavers and more? ...pretty sure the answer is a resounding "yes. duh."

Uh YES, this is what warhammer is all about, mind-gaming and out playing your opponent, duh!

What, you want a counter that is unable to be stopped by a good general?

"Oh well I can't do ANY of those things or use TACTICS against him/the unit because he'll have chaff and ranged units and proper positioning."

I can't even believe I'm reading this.

Experiment 626 wrote:
High Elves should never lose big to Daemons outside of the Cacobomb build in all honesty.

HE's win the movement phase expect vs. mono-Slaanesh.
HE's win the shooting phase hands down. (new Elated Flamer isn't anywhere near enough to even things up.)
HE's have a better Magic phase, including access the Death (making Nurgle weep), Shadow (Miasma will help kill Slaany's movement & -S/T hexes), Light (Daemons just cry), High (a great toolbox lore + ward save building attribute), while large Cavbus builds can feature Beasts.
HE's also have the far superior chaff & chaff removal games by far. Between Core Reavers, Archers & Silverdarts, plus solo Eagles, mass Bolters AND Sisters. Added to the MM's/Direct Damage spells of the Magic phase, if you can't clear Daemonic chaff within 2 turns then either the dice are simply kicking you, or you're doing it wrong.
HE's then out-melee what is still essentially a melee centric army thanks to ASF + elven stats combined with Martial Prowess allowing for frontage denial.

The WorldCrutch Banner is simply the final kick in the balls that no DoC player enjoys facing, as it makes an already tough match-up into a complete farce.


While Dark Elves present many of the same problems, they at least still keep to the inherent 'glass cannon' styles that elves are known for.
High Elves on the other hand trade re-roll 1's to-wound for an added rank of attacks, and then gain better armour saves, better ward saves, two amazing SC's (one of whom simply destroys Daemons outright) and the game's most powerful magic item.

So just inherently, high elves are all of those things.

Take out the banner, and they'd STILL be all of those things.

I don't see how the banner breaks a stalemate or changes the meta against DoC or any of that crap if they're already just that good.

Frankly DoC is a losing battle against ANY army with superior mobility, chaff, and shooting. Combine that with a competent general and what you're saying is that there's NO WAY to beat HE as DoC barring HE being complete noob or disastrous 1st turn miscast bomb.

Oh you don'y enjoy playing against the world dragon banner? Meet the MoN WoC daemon prince. Hits me on 2's, wounds on 2's, goes first, makes me hit on 5's, has a 1+/5++ or better save and 2++ against flaming, unbreakable so ranks don't work, blocks the first shot at him in the game, allowing him to get to combat on 2nd turn unmolested, has the other trickster's shard to make my banner unit reroll. Suddenly 2++ x2 is a lot less reliable.

Unless I pour my entire army's tactics and bonuses and advantages at him, he alone is going to eat my entire side of the board.

Best part? WoC can do the cacobomb almost as well as DoC, and the rest of their army isn't crippled to do it.

Oh and lastly, we don't "out melee" DoC, we're a combined arms army, if we fight in melee, it's after we've debuffed you and whittled you down with shooting, gaining local superiority in the process by chaff. That's not out melee'ing, that's playing to our strengths.

Straight up most of our melee loses head to head against yours both at full strength.

BronzeJon wrote:
Combine that with a competent general and what you're saying is that there's NO WAY to beat HE as DoC barring HE being complete noob or disastrous 1st turn miscast bomb.

Actually he never said that. He pointed out all the factors that are in the High Elves favour and then, rather accurately, stated that a 50pt magic item then tips the scales even further in their favour by making a Deathstar unit practically untouchable.
In what may be a first for 626 () he actually presented a fairly accurate, measured summary of the issues the DoC face when playing High Elves.

Blocks the first shot at him in the game, allowing him to get to combat on 2nd turn unmolested

So that single 2+ ward save the Charmed Shield gives him against the first hit he suffers is somehow enough to get him into combat 'unmolested'. Please explain this to me. Why did you shoot at him with only one, single shooting attack?

has the other trickster's shard to make my banner unit reroll. Suddenly 2++ x2 is a lot less reliable.

"A lot less reliable" is a relative term. Whilst you are technically correct, I would be shocked if you actually thought having to pass the 2+ save twice is unreliable.

Straight up most of our melee loses head to head against yours both at full strength.

I'd love to actually see some evidence or proof of this.

Well, if BronzeJon really thinks that the BotWD isn't all that great, maybe he should just pledge to never use it.

You know, since it's not all that great, and all....

BronzeJon wrote:
Uh YES, this is what warhammer is all about, mind-gaming and out playing your opponent, duh!

What, you want a counter that is unable to be stopped by a good general?

"Oh well I can't do ANY of those things or use TACTICS against him/the unit because he'll have chaff and ranged units and proper positioning."

I can't even believe I'm reading this.

Don't be silly. Your argument of "just, you know, charge him in the rear" is absolute garbage. Here's why: yes, that is what Warhammer is all about. You and your opponent trying to outmaneuver each other and all that good stuff. So it's going to be a struggle, right? You've both got a variety of units and ploys to achieve such a thing. But your opponent has the Banner of the World Dragon. So, if your army uses magic attacks to get the job done, now you're saying that all you have to do is beat him at the chaff/magic/shooting/movement games, and then the LionStar isn't nearly so scary. Um...duh. But doing all of that is effing hard. And then, in the end, the BotWD is still waiting for you.
I just can't help but laugh at the idea that I'm supposed to just focus my whole army on his one unit, but also take out all the annoying stuff protecting it at the same time. Oh! Or maybe I'll feed it cheap units for as long as I can, and then focus the rest of my now-depleted forces on the rest of his army.
I'm not saying these things will never work. I'm saying that they don't always work. That, in fact, it's really hard for them to work.

BronzeJon wrote:
So just inherently, high elves are all of those things.

Take out the banner, and they'd STILL be all of those things.

I don't see how the banner breaks a stalemate or changes the meta against DoC or any of that crap if they're already just that good.

...it makes the situation even worse. If the odds of HE vs DoC is, say, 3:1, then HE + BotWD vs DoC is 5:1.

BronzeJon wrote:
Oh you don'y enjoy playing against the world dragon banner? Meet the MoN WoC daemon prince. Hits me on 2's, wounds on 2's, goes first, makes me hit on 5's, has a 1+/5++ or better save and 2++ against flaming, unbreakable...

A LionStar has, what, 12 attacks that hit on 5's, wound on 4's versus him? So, after armour, that's .7 wounds, right?
And he's dishing out...2 wounds, after saves, including the OTS? So...if it's just the Star and him...you're still winning combat, and you'll beat him in the grind.
I mean, I'm not saying the Prince isn't stupid. He is. But the Banner is stupider.

BronzeJon wrote:
Oh and lastly, we don't "out melee" DoC, we're a combined arms army, if we fight in melee, it's after we've debuffed you and whittled you down with shooting, gaining local superiority in the process by chaff. That's not out melee'ing, that's playing to our strengths.

Straight up most of our melee loses head to head against yours both at full strength.

Sword Masters, White Lions and Phoenix Guard probably beg to differ when facing off against Plague Bearers, Bloodletters, Daemonettes, and Horrors.

...seriously, brah. The verdict is in: the Banner of the World Dragon is too good. Look at the sheer volume of arguments against you.
Is it an auto-win button? No. But it's a 50pt banner. That gives a unit a 2+ Ward save. Against an entire army. And other stuff.
Can't spell it out any simpler than that.

Neat trick High Elf players love to abuse but refuse to admit to:
1. Lore of Shadow Lv4 caster sits safely in Archer bunker behind BotWD unit which contains the BSB. Lv4 miscasts...
2. ...Lore attribute kicks in before the miscast result is worked out, allowing Lv4 to swap position with BSB to gain the miscast protection...
3. ...Lv4 casts 1 more Shadow spell & swaps back to the Archer unit.

It's not just us poor DoC players who vehemently hate this stupid thing, but everyone in general. Especially with crap like the above being doable.



Mind you, the High Elf community in general have really been giving themselves a bad image since their new book hit, complaining they're not competitive and are mid to low tier, that BotWD is balanced and not in any way an auto-include, or that their special characters are crap, etc...

Give them another couple of years of this BS and they'll dig their own grave as they cement themselves as "That army." (though DoC will always take no.1 spot because of our previous book...)

Experiment 626 wrote:
Neat trick High Elf players love to abuse but refuse to admit to:
1. Lore of Shadow Lv4 caster sits safely in Archer bunker behind BotWD unit which contains the BSB. Lv4 miscasts...
2. ...Lore attribute kicks in before the miscast result is worked out, allowing Lv4 to swap position with BSB to gain the miscast protection...
3. ...Lv4 casts 1 more Shadow spell & swaps back to the Archer unit.

It's not just us poor DoC players who vehemently hate this stupid thing, but everyone in general. Especially with crap like the above being doable.



Mind you, the High Elf community in general have really been giving themselves a bad image since their new book hit, complaining they're not competitive and are mid to low tier, that BotWD is balanced and not in any way an auto-include, or that their special characters are crap, etc...

Give them another couple of years of this BS and they'll dig their own grave as they cement themselves as "That army." (though DoC will always take no.1 spot because of our previous book...)

As a High Elf Player who avoids the BoTWD, and Special Characters, who does well with the army, in a competitive environment, I can state that they are not auto-includes. They are very tempting to include, but 99% of the time, that 50 points is better off elsewhere, I find.

And on a side note, when I play my demons, high elves are one of my favourite matchups, mostly because I can actually chaff them up with beasts, and clear off the rest of the army. Because you know, T5 with a 4+ regen that can challenge is pretty good at taking out a unit that takes a 50 point banner, which means no flaming banner.

I'd say that the prince is far worse, in that he can kill chaff far better than elves, AND, he cannot be controlled, like the world dragon buses.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

As a High Elf Player who avoids the BoTWD, and Special Characters, who does well with the army, in a competitive environment, I can state that they are not auto-includes. They are very tempting to include, but 99% of the time, that 50 points is better off elsewhere, I find.

And on a side note, when I play my demons, high elves are one of my favourite matchups, mostly because I can actually chaff them up with beasts, and clear off the rest of the army. Because you know, T5 with a 4+ regen that can challenge is pretty good at taking out a unit that takes a 50 point banner, which means no flaming banner.

I'd say that the prince is far worse, in that he can kill chaff far better than elves, AND, he cannot be controlled, like the world dragon buses.

And yet, High Elves are one of the best armies for dealing with Beasts, which makes it even more amusing when a solo or pair of Beasts chaffs up their unit...
I've yet to see a single HE army that hasn't included at least 1-2 of;
- at least 1+ Light, Shadow, Death and/or High magic users
- 1+ unit of 6-9 Silverhelms
- 2+ Bolters
- Sisters of Averlorn!!! (if your local HE players are still ignoring these girls, they're plain ignorant! These girls are amazing annoyance value & force multipliers!)
- 5-6 DP's w/Banner of E.Flame

Beasts are actually one of the easier DoC units for HE's to deal with, unless it's a unit of 4-6+ and the HE player has no access to P.Sun/Pit/-T hexes/Banishment/Shem's/Sisters, etc...
High Elves have a much harder time vs. Slaanesh units & magic especially, and Tzeentch shenangians.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Mind you, the High Elf community in general have really been giving themselves a bad image since their new book hit, complaining they're not competitive and are mid to low tier, that BotWD is balanced and not in any way an auto-include, or that their special characters are crap, etc...

Has this actually ever happened? I'm yet to hear any significant complaining on behalf of High Elf players in person or even in internet forums that I peruse regularly... and complaining in forums is easier than breathing.
Compare that to the name you seem intent on giving the DoC community however...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

As a High Elf Player who avoids the BoTWD, and Special Characters, who does well with the army, in a competitive environment, I can state that they are not auto-includes. They are very tempting to include, but 99% of the time, that 50 points is better off elsewhere, I find.

And on a side note, when I play my demons, high elves are one of my favourite matchups, mostly because I can actually chaff them up with beasts, and clear off the rest of the army. Because you know, T5 with a 4+ regen that can challenge is pretty good at taking out a unit that takes a 50 point banner, which means no flaming banner.

I'd say that the prince is far worse, in that he can kill chaff far better than elves, AND, he cannot be controlled, like the world dragon buses.

And yet, High Elves are one of the best armies for dealing with Beasts, which makes it even more amusing when a solo or pair of Beasts chaffs up their unit...
I've yet to see a single HE army that hasn't included at least 1-2 of;
- at least 1+ Light, Shadow, Death and/or High magic users
- 1+ unit of 6-9 Silverhelms
- 2+ Bolters
- Sisters of Averlorn!!! (if your local HE players are still ignoring these girls, they're plain ignorant! These girls are amazing annoyance value & force multipliers!)
- 5-6 DP's w/Banner of E.Flame

Beasts are actually one of the easier DoC units for HE's to deal with, unless it's a unit of 4-6+ and the HE player has no access to P.Sun/Pit/-T hexes/Banishment/Shem's/Sisters, etc...
High Elves have a much harder time vs. Slaanesh units & magic especially, and Tzeentch shenangians.

I hands down admit I run a light council, sisters of averlorn, and units of 5 Princes(just a muso).

I admit that beasts aren't that hard to actually deal with, but when you're challenging every turn with a solo beast with a 4+ regen, which you can increase, it gets hard to shift.

I don't think this Banner can be justified as a reasonable and well-priced item under the current rules, even before getting into the whole Daemons thing.
It would still be some of the best points you could possibly spend if:
- The Banner is increased to 55pts
- Dragon Princes have their Banner allowance cut to 50pts
And therefore it could only be taken by the BSB, and only if he plays with mundane kit. It would still be brutal but it takes an enormous amount of pressure off the opponent by lowering the kill-requirements to 2 T3 Wounds.

As it stands though; Magical melee is a complete non-option and Magical damage is never going to be in large-enough quantites to strip the unit. Most armies still have access to 'regular' melee however, and shooting helps if you can punch through the White Lion Cloak. It's extremely frustrating, ludicrously undercosted and will almost always require more effort than the unit is actually worth, but there are usually options.
As an aside, Walk Between Worlds makes the chaff game extremely difficult to pull off and High Elves aren't exactly lacking for options themselves. You need to have chaff options that can survive massed Reavers, Archers and Helms.

For Daemons however, the situation gets a bit grim. Off the top of my head the only things I can really suggest as 'solutions':
- Dedicate several hundred points of Beasts and Furies to delay them. Does not work very well if he takes Walk Between Worlds and will still result in a few hundred points being given to the enemy.
- Spam Acquiescence and Cacophony, play to avoid. While nice in practice, you'd have to pull it off against the Dispel Scroll first, and then a L4 with-or-without the Book of Hoeth. Also runs the risk of Miscasting a 600pt Lord into the ground.
- Invest lots of points into mediocre Tzeentchians packing mediocre Metal, roll through both the Scroll and the L4, and go for Transmutation. Whoopee!
- Invest lots of points into a combination of Slaaneshii mages for Miasma, and Nurgle for the Sun. Woo!

My personal solution? Take a Keeper of Secrets, multiple Exalted Flamers, Burning-Blue Chariots and fill your Core with Horrors. Ideally end up with Treason and Phastasmagoria, plus whatever Slaaneshii magic you get. Just keep laying Fire Thrower templates to force those Break checks at Ld7-on-3-dice. It's still very reliant on forcing magic but your opponent might hold back on the Scroll for fear of a Cacophany.


So basically, more megadeath spells or gunlining, otherwise hold onto your knees and enjoy the ride.