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As per the title, can models in this formation take signature systems? Like can the mandatory riptide in the formation take any of the farsight signature systems if farsight is the main force, etc?

Formations specifically list what options the units in the formation have.

CrownAxe,
I believe he is referring to the Farsight Enclave rule which allows Riptides to take signature systems even though it is not an option within the army list to begin with. It is simply yet another 'what does the word army actually mean' threads but this time it literally just states 'XV104 Riptides in your army may...' which makes it even harder to argue against. Even my rule of thumb for trying to figure out if they are talking about army wide rules or detachment wide rules is to check if they use the name of the codex/supplement prior to the word army. Even in that case this rule still looks to be an army wide rule, and as any Riptide taken as an ally in any fashion would still be 'part of the army' they would be able to take signature systems by evoking this rule. Unless I am over-looking something which states formations are not part of the army, possible because the definition was originally written when there was only primary and allied detachments to worry about.

^ This is my problem. The farsight enclaves signature systems rule is so vague in who may apply it that one could argue the reference to "army" could mean detachments and formations.

Yet the reason i am currently on the side of "only specifically farsight enclaves models may take" , is simply that if ithe rule is interpreted that anything may take it, then allies of different races could take the items. Or on that same line of thinking, if army meant everyone, then tau allied to farsight would be dissalllowed to take systems from the tau codex, as the farsight signature systems rule prevents use of tau codex signature sytems.

I tend to lie in the camp of if the Primary is Enclaves, then you are restricted from using C:Tau Sig systems. Most of the major tournaments do not view it this way and allow the Tau Buff Commander.

Given that the Dataslate for the formation uses the wording "Tau Codex", I believe if you take Enclaves the riptide in the formation has access to the sig systems of Enclave.

GameandWatch,
I do not know where you are coming to that conclusion as, aside from the Riptide, this rule only applies to models that already have access to Signature Systems.

JinxDragon wrote:
GameandWatch,
I do not know where you are coming to that conclusion as, aside from the Riptide, this rule only applies to models that already have access to Signature Systems.

The description is just incredibly vague at least in my digital edition Farsight supplement. The language used in the book could be argued a number of ways.

Aside from the whole debate on 'does Army mean detachment or entire Army in these cases?' I do not see what is so vague about whom can take these signature systems. The Rule literally starts by informing us exactly whom is to be bound by this Rule: Any character in your army that may select Signature Systems .... It would not be possible to use this rule to apply a Signature Systems on a Space Marine Sargent because the Sargent does not have a rule stating that he may take them in the first place. Like wise it would not be possible to take a Command and Control Node on a Buff Commander, assuming the rule is entire army wide, because the Commander is a character that may take signature systems.

Bodyguards, now those are a real puzzle as they are not characters but can take Signature Systems.....

I did mean to ask something else:
What do you mean by only "Specific Farsight Enclave models?"

JinxDragon wrote:
Aside from the whole debate on 'does Army mean detachment or entire Army in these cases?' I do not see what is so vague about whom can take these signature systems. The Rule literally starts by informing us exactly whom is to be bound by this Rule: Any character in your army that may select Signature Systems .... It would not be possible to use this rule to apply a Signature Systems on a Space Marine Sargent because the Sargent does not have a rule stating that he may take them in the first place. Like wise it would not be possible to take a Command and Control Node on a Buff Commander, assuming the rule is entire army wide, because the Commander is a character that may take signature systems.

Bodyguards, now those are a real puzzle as they are not characters but can take Signature Systems.....

I did mean to ask something else:
What do you mean by only "Specific Farsight Enclave models?"

(What do you mean by only "Specific Farsight Enclave models?") Models that are specifically part of the farsight main detachment of allied detachment.

"Any character in your army that may select signature systems" This sentence is my issue. I understand what you mean by the language in that sentence not pointing to other armies/ races not being able to select the systems, that was another point with regards to what army means.

Where the problem comes into play is the current Tau/ tau allies signature system exception. Mainly, that as it currently stands in the tournament scene, tau/ tau allies may select signature systems from both the main codex and the supplement. If this is true, then it is considering the "Characters in your army that may select signature systems" are only characters that are part of that particular detachment. Hence, farsight detachment characters (and the exception of riptides in the detachment) can take those systems. Likewise, tau codex allies in any respect can only take their own codex systems. And similarly, since the firebase formation is attached to referenced codex (as per the formation "faction" rules) The riptide in the formation would therefore only have access to the codex tau empire sig. systems, which it cant take any...

That is my reasoning in a nutshell

Sorry for taking some time to reply and tired from things irrelevant to this place,

I have been trying to think of ways to make this quick but it is difficult to explain a few things, particularly on something that even the writers themselves don't seem to have a clear grasp on thanks to their stupid duel use of the term Army. I will simply ask you to consider one thing, to compare the wording of this rule with those found in the rest of the supplement and other rules in other Codex's and Supplements at a later date. The first one, BattleSuit SpearHead, begins by stating in a Farsight Enclaves army . The second one, Ork Hunter, reads Units in in a Farsight Enclaves army . The third one, Ta'... well you should see the patterns forming by now. Then we get to the rule in question which reads as it was posted above, the title of the book is completely lacking in this rule. That might be telling, or it might be an editorial error, to the intention of the rule so it is something I would like you to consider when you encounter such problems in the future.

There is something else that I wonder if others have considered:
The terminology 'your army' is used throughout the Rule Book in such a way it can only mean the entire thing, every detachment and formation. Page 108 is the point it begins to describe a terminology so very important that it has it's own section. This includes such requirements that you do not spend more on your army then agreed on, that your army have a primary detachment, the option for your army to contain allied detachments and so on. While some people might point to a real screwed up use of a derived word of Army on page 109, where the writers use the word armies as if it is separate from the allies for one reminder that certain combinations of primary and allied detachments are better then others, when that logical argument is taken to the extreme it becomes very unusual. For example, if my allies are a different army then I can take 1500 points of them as well. Ridiculous argument I know, but if one 'your army' restriction is limited to just a detachment then all 'your army' restrictions, including point cost of your army, have to be detachment specific.

If you tread the two as different terminologies, Your Army being one step above 'Detachment's Army' then the rules function on both the mega and micro interaction levels.

Personally:
I blame the writers for having a good term, your army, and then calling detachments "Codex A's army" as well because it makes Rule as Written so... gray. However, I think limiting it to just one detachment was not the writers intent because of how powerful it makes Tau-Farsight Enclave combinations. These are Battle Brothers after all, aside from transports they might as well be the same army and the Tau do not have transports for Signature System carrying suits in any case. By combining the two armies together all you have effectively done is given yourself twice as many options when it comes to out-fitting your heavy hitters, so all the best primaries you can have, and possibly opened up a few combinations that made secondary systems on both lists more deadly. All at the 'terrible' cost of a single three man suit team and full access to the eight!

The Rule as Written way of reading this rule, combined with the formatting, makes it clear enough for me:
All Characters in your Army that can take Signature Systems MUST choose from this list.
With the exception being the 8 whom must be equipped by their profile.

My only real problem with any of your response is in the paragraph under "personal", where you imply that tau allied to farsight or vice versa are able to access both sets of signature systems. In previous paragraphs you were explaining how the primary, allies and formations should be seen as one "army". Yet the second to last sentence in your response, "All Characters in your Army that can take Signature Systems MUST choose from this list," contradicts the ability to take signature systems from both codex tau and farsight enclaves, IF, the army is considered a singular whole.

In the tournament setting, it has been ruled that both sets of signature systems can be used, tau codex primary or allies can select their books Sig Sys, and the farsight primary or allies can choose theirs. It really is this particular ruling in the competitive setting that I have felt has really screwed things up. If the army was instead considered a cohesive whole, then suddenly the effectiveness of such stupid builds as ovesa star and such with attached "buffmanders" starts to evaporate.

This, out of everything is my singular issue as to how the formation would be able to access sig systems. I mean, as per formation rules, the faction is tau, is that farsight tau, or tau empire? Is it per the primary detachment? Ok, so does that mean it takes the rules of the primary? Can it get their signature systems, does it have preferred enemy against orks in close combat?

In my opinion, these are all relevant questions that have not been thoroughly answered. As well, do not get me wrong, I want the formation riptide access to the farsight sig systems, I just am imaging how it will be ruled against me in the competitive scene.

Not entirely sure what you mean?
The personal statement I made was my views on the matter, and the bit that confuses me is that I am clearly on the side that believes the Rule should effect all detachments. The researched I did on the rule in question shows it is designed to effect the entire army in order to limit the Tau Empire-Farsight Enclave combination. While I can envision a slight confusion over one or two things, I find it difficult to believe that I was implying this duel use was the normal. Given that I clearly believe the rule forces both Tau Empire Characters and Farsight Enclave Characters to take from the Farsight Enclave list in order to prevent any list being built with combinations of the two in mind.

As for tournament organizers, what they might will at their own events is entirely up to them and their input does not matter to Rule debates outside of the event. I am sure some of the more old timers will be able to list entire Rules that the majority of them have gotten wrong in the past, prior to Frequently Asked Questions and other things, and other rules that the majority of them might still not follow correctly. Their ability to allow both lists to be used is the opposite conclusion to my own and does allow some very broken things to happen. That is why I believe the organizers are wrong on this matter but there is nothing I can say here to stop them doing what they want, but keep in mind they are not authorities and you will need to ask each and every one their own personal view on the game for the 'correct' answer.

As for your questions, by default:
The formation states it is taken from the Codex: Tau Empire so it is a pure Tau Empire detachment.
This formation can be allied to the Farsight Enclave Army but is still Tau Empire
The Riptide within is bound by the rule for Signature Systems, granting it access to a Signature System
It selects it's system from the Far-sight Enclave Army, as per the instructions in the rule granting it permission to select one in the first place

Preferred Enemy is tricky to some, but by my interpenetration:
The Riptide does NOT have preferred Enemy Orks as that one contains 'Farsight Enclave Army' in the restriction

The Firebase Support Cadre is a formation, Formations come from exactly the book they say they come from (Codex: Tau Empire in this case).

No signature systems for your Firebase support Riptide, it does not have that option and is not selected out of the Enclaves supplement.

I have to disagree with you there Kommissar Kel, as the Rule in question is a 'Your Army' wide rule and the formation is still part of Your Army if it is attached to a Farsight Enclave Army in any way.

It is not attached to the farsight enclave army any more than it would be attached to an Ultramarine Army.

It is a Formation Datasheet with its own individual rules that do not utilize rules from other elements of your army.

It is the same as the Storm Wing which would not benefit from CT: Iron Hands; it is not part of the Iron Hands army, it is a separate formation with its own individual rules.

And Finally an Eldar Ghost warriors formation that is attached to and Eldar Primary detachment that contains a Spirit Seer does not have the WG battlefield role change to troops, they remain elites.


Edit: furthermore if you wanted to make such claims that the farsight enclaves signature systems rule fundamentally changes your whole army than an enclaves primary(or ally) with allied Tau Empire cannot have a buffmander(since the Tau empire detachment now must use the enclaves signature systems), and their riptides get access to signature systems

Kommissar Kel,
The issue is not that the formation is somehow joined to the Farsight Enclave Army, because it doesn't matter where in Your Army the detachment/formation is. As soon as an Farsight Enclave Army is taken as a Primary or Allied detachment the Signature System Rule in question comes into effect. That Rule contains the instructions that all Riptides that are part of Your Army are granted the ability to take a Signature System from the list. It doesn't state all Riptides taken as part of a Farsight Enclave Army gain access to Signature Systems, but highlights every Riptide in Your Army gain Signature System access, and the formation is still part of Your Army.

Unless formations contain a Rule stating outright that Special Rules from outside the formation can never be applied to them, of course.

As for the whole Tau-Enclave thing?
I have commented on both the Rule as Written and the Rule as Intended: My personal view is that the writer wrote exactly what was intended in this situation, a Rule designed to effect the entire army. The Writers formatted this rule completely differently then the ones before, where they made it clear the Rule applied to just the Farsight Enclave Army. As the only two "factions" that could be effected by this Rule are both taken from the Codex: Tau Empire, I feel their intention was to address the possible over-powered combinations that can be possible when you have an Army allying with itself. The fact the two are selected from the same codex makes all sorts of shenanigans and easily abused creative book-keeping possible, particularly seeing one 'faction' takes Suits as Troops so the requirement to take an additional troop choice is not even a bother.

Is it that far fetched that a Rule Restricting Your Army to one list could be addressing the most glaring of shenanigans; that being the ability to allow a single Army to select from two Signature System lists?

"Note that XV104 Riptides in your army may select items from the Signature Systems of the Farsight Enclaves."

Wow, that is disgusting with a Firebase Cadre. Lets give a Riptide Armorbane AND reroll 1s to hit/nova reactor.

Nilok,
One still has to take a Primary or Allied Detachment of Farsight Enclave to trigger the rule, and they don't have a lack of Elite slots just begging Riptides.

I'm not sure why you are stating that a Farsight Enclave detachment need to be included in order to use their rules, I would assume that was given.

However, when you take a Firebase Cadre, all of the units in the formation gain Armorbane for no extra cost. If you are already taking a Riptide and two groups of Broadsides, you can free up an elite slot and two heavy slots, then throw ECPA and HBC so it shreds armor like mad.

Reroll nova reactor, reroll 1s to hit/gets hot, reroll armorpen + rending.
That is a mean anti-tank/anti-flier Riptide.

Nilok,
You are right, I over looked the Tank Hunter Special Rule and now I have to wonder why I am not putting these things in with everything?!

Well, first is the cost, 6 Broadsides and a Riptide is expensive.
Second, none of the units in the formation count to their slot (heavy or elite). This means that if you play Big Guns Never Tire, none of the Firebase Broadsides can score, on the flip side, that also means none of your Firebase Broadsides can grant Victory Points.