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2014/03/16 20:15:21
Subject: Objective Secured Vs Non-Scoring Denial Units.
This special rule allows Skyblight Gargoyle units to control objectives even if there is an enemy *scoring* unit in range.
Does this mean I can still use Denial units to contest objectives against Skyblight Gargoyles?
This doesn't seem to have a clear resolution, so for those who don't want to read 4 pages, here is a summary.
On the side that denial units do NOT contest Skyblight Gargoyles:
Spoiler:
- The Objective Secured special rule states that "you control the objective". This overrules the regular rules for controlling objectives, which states the conditions that have to be met in order to control the objective. You may still use the range from that rule, otherwise the objective secured rule would be functionally broken. The Skyblight rule also uses the rules for controlling objectives in that they may only hold one objective at a time.
- Skyblight gargoyles are not scoring units, they simply have a special rule that allows them to hold objectives. The rules for controlling objectives, which denial units use, states that SCORING units hold an objective, unless there is a denial unit present. This inversely means that denial units only deny scoring units.
- The rule under denial units only states that they "CAN" deny an enemy unit. In this instance it is believed that can does NOT mean "does" or "always will".
- The Objective secured rule stating that it ignores scoring units is only used as an example, to exemplify that the unit controls the objective no matter what.
On the side that denial units DO contest Skyblight Gargoyles:
Spoiler:
- The Objective Secured special rule states that it may ignore scoring units, but not denial units. It is believed that this is not an example, but rather a specified list. This would allow non-scoring denial units such as elite choices to deny skyblight gargoyles.
- The rule under denial units states that they can deny "enemy units" holding an objective, not just scoring units. This makes the fact that skyblight gargoyles are not scoring units irrelevant.
- It is believed that CAN, in this instance, follows suit with the rest of the occurrences of the word "can" in the rulebook and means "has permission to". (example: "Bikes/Jetbikes CAN move up to 12" in the movement phase". It is impossible for them NOT to move "up to" 12" without breaking the rules.)
- It is believed that if the skyblight gargoyles must read from the rules for Scoring Objectives, that it must use ALL rules, not just those for range and how many objectives can be controlled. Their specified list of exceptions allows them to ignore the presence of any unit with the "scoring" attribute, but they must adhere to the rules regarding range, number of objectives, and presence of denial units.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/23 16:44:09
2014/03/16 20:18:22
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
While that's true, I believe it's not intended - similar to the non-denying vehicles in BGNT and Scouring. Not that it'll be FAQed any time soon though.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/03/17 06:38:32
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
What rule says that a denial unit stops gargs from controlling an objective?
If you look at the rules for scoring units, p. 123
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
The rules for scoring units, has a restriction about enemy denial units.
From the Dataslate:
A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
The Garg rule does not have that restriction. Thus it doesn't care if a denial unit is there or not.
it has a restriction that scoring units can't control an objective if
2014/03/18 00:33:28
Subject: Re:Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
What rule says that a denial unit stops gargs from controlling an objective?
If you look at the rules for scoring units, p. 123
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
The rules for scoring units, has a restriction about enemy denial units.
From the Dataslate:
A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
The Garg rule does not have that restriction. Thus it doesn't care if a denial unit is there or not.
it has a restriction that scoring units can't control an objective if
I"m not sure what you're getting at. The skyblight gargoyles are given the ability to control objectives even if there is an enemy scoring unit present. This does not permit the skyblight gargoyles to ignore enemy denial units. Denial units are not scoring units. As per the BRB rule you quoted, you only control an objective if there are NO enemy denial units present. Therefore, Denial units prevent skyblight gargoyles from controlling objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/18 05:29:46
2014/03/18 06:31:24
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Nos - If it doesn't want you to use the BRB rule for controlling objectives, then why stipulate that it even works in the presence of enemy scoring units? That is a BRB reference. And even then, your enemy does not have the skyblight rule, and so (S)HE would be using the BRB definition, which entitles their denial units to prevent objective control. Nothing in the skyblight rule takes that ability away from your opponent.
2014/03/18 14:00:43
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
coredump wrote:From the Dataslate:
A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually it states you control the objective unless. There is no requirement to use the BRB rule at all.
Assuming the above quote is accurate (since I don't have the dataslate), without looking to the BRB, exactly how close does the unit with Objective Secured have to be to control an objective? OS seems pretty non-functional without also using the BRB rules for controlling objectives since it doesn't actually tell you how to control an objective, just that you can do it "even if an enemy scoring unit is within range".
0029/03/18 01:58:26
Subject: Re:Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Yeah they should have worded this stuff better. Confusion seems to be that it doesn't actually say that the gargoyles are scoring units, just that they can control the objective (they should have just called them scoring units), and the brb reference above indicates denail units denying the objective from scoring units.
I'm definitely going to have to take a closer look at the brb when I get home.
Either way it's still a plus even if regular denial units can deny the gargs, but as a nid player I kinda hope it turns out that the gargs can't be denied, only killed off.
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2014/03/18 17:53:17
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Oh make no mistakes... it is *another* example of sloppy rules by GW, and the continued lack of quality control....
However...
The rule about scoring units is why they are stopped by denial units. The rule about scoring units say they control objectives... and then lists a restriction. (denial units nearby)
The garg rule does *not have* that restriction.
There is no rule that says a denial unit will prevent a gargoyle brood from controlling an objective.
2014/03/18 17:55:28
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
What rule says that a denial unit stops gargs from controlling an objective?
If you look at the rules for scoring units, p. 123
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
The rules for scoring units, has a restriction about enemy denial units.
From the Dataslate:
A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.
The Garg rule does not have that restriction. Thus it doesn't care if a denial unit is there or not.
it has a restriction that scoring units can't control an objective if
I"m not sure what you're getting at. The skyblight gargoyles are given the ability to control objectives even if there is an enemy scoring unit present. This does not permit the skyblight gargoyles to ignore enemy denial units. Denial units are not scoring units. As per the BRB rule you quoted, you only control an objective if there are NO enemy denial units present. Therefore, Denial units prevent skyblight gargoyles from controlling objectives.
You are looking at this backwards... the gargs don't need an exemption from denial units. There is no rule which allows denial units to prevent gargs from controlling objectives.
2014/03/18 18:13:50
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
The main problem is that Objective Secured doesn't actually tell you how to control an objective, just that gargs can do it even if an enemy scoring unit is within range. Everyone seems to be assuming that they control if they're within 3", but that isn't part of the OS rule. You pretty much need to use the BRB rules for scoring units controlling objectives to have OS actually do anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/18 18:25:49
2014/03/18 20:33:04
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
As said above, if you bypass the BRB rules for scoring completely, then Skyblight Gargoyle units control all objectives on the board at all times.
Coredump: Why do the gargs not need an exemption from a unit that has permission to prevent them from controlling objectives? They apparently needed an exemption from Scoring units, as they were included in the Objective Secured rule. It says that gargoyles may hold objectives and ignore scoring units. Rule for denial units says "Denial units are those squads that can prevent an enemy from controlling an objective." It does NOT say that denial units can only prevent SCORING units from controlling objectives. it says "an enemy".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/18 20:34:53
2014/03/18 22:07:17
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Bojazz wrote: As said above, if you bypass the BRB rules for scoring completely, then Skyblight Gargoyle units control all objectives on the board at all times.
Ha! I'm going to see if I can get away with this for 1 friendly game, but we'll probably just play it as controlling within 3" and denial immune.
/
2014/03/18 22:27:05
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Their special rule does not make them a scoring unit. It is a special rule. The only exception it gives in the special rule is if the other unit has objective secured.
It should hold the obj. unless a unit w/ obj. secured is also with in 3". That should be the only thing that stops this unit from holding it. Well that and death.
would like to point out to those that are saying that denial units would prevent the gargoyles from holding the objective that all scoring units are also denial units by default (pending USR that stipulates otherwise on said unit).
so what your saying is that the special rule effectively does nothing.
this to me sounds wrong.
also it isn't a great leap of logic to presume that the slates intent is that you have to kill all the gargoyles in order to stop them scoring the objective.
2014/03/18 23:39:19
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
That is incorrect. A unit does not need to be SOLELY scoring in order to be affected by the Objective Secured special rule. Nothing in the game works like that.
For instance Skimmers get the Jink special rule. But so do Fast Skimmers. The fact that they are also a "Fast" unit does not mean they are not still a Skimmer, thus robbing them of the Jink special rule.
Similarly, all Scoring units are Denial units, but not all Denial units are scoring units. Objective Secured allows you to ignore a Scoring unit. Regardless of it's other types, it is still a Scoring unit and therefore can be ignored.
Denial units, however, are not Scoring units, and therefore have no interaction with the Objective Secured special rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should say that I do agree that it's possible the rule was intended to ignore ALL units on objectives, but the wording to specifically prevent enemy scoring units makes it oddly specific. Enough for intent to be argued either way, IMO. However, from a RAW standpoint, Denial units can definitely contest.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/18 23:43:05
2014/03/18 23:43:22
Subject: Re:Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Either way it's still scoring gargoyles that ignore some or all denial units, plus 50% chance to come back if killed off. I'd definitely like them to FAQ this though.
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2014/03/18 23:46:04
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Bojazz wrote: Similarly, all Scoring units are Denial units, but not all Denial units are scoring units.
Not necessarily. In The Scouring/BGNT, FA and HS vehicles become Scoring, but nothing gives them permission to be denying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 00:24:47
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2014/03/19 00:57:36
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
Good catch happyjew. I should have said all scoring units have the opportunity to be denial units, so long as they meet the denial unit requirements.
On a side note, that's a good comparison. Those missions specifically give permission to be scoring, but do not mention denying everywhere. Everyone recognized that "scoring" did not also automatically include "denying". Yet with the gargoyles, it mentions they can ignore scoring, but many people thought that included denying as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 01:04:53
2014/03/19 01:15:56
Subject: Getting around Skyblight Objective Secured
On a side note, that's a good comparison. Those missions specifically give permission to be scoring, but do not mention denying everywhere. Everyone recognized that "scoring" did not also automatically include "denying".
Except of course lots of people don't recognise that. Whikst we see that is the RaW I'm yet to cone across anyone that actually plays it that way as it is flat out dumb. Anyone wanting to play that rule against me better have unhelmeted models or he's not shooting. That rule is infact a very good comparison we all know what the actual rule and can see the silliness in the RaW juat like this situation. Heck the very titke of the thread highlights the motivation behind your interpretation. Let the Nids have their one good thing.
Regardless of whether or not Denial units can still contest, not only is it still a great rule for Tyranids, but the formation that comes with it is also absolutely amazing. I would hardly say that being able to ignore denial units on top of all that would be their "one" good thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 01:20:20
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