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Hi there guys,

I've written my opinions on the Heralds of Chaos in this edition


For more information on the warp storm table, have a look at: Armywide Special Rules and the Warpstorm Table.
For more information about the rewards and Warlord Traits in the Daemons Codex, have a look at: Rewards, Psychic Powers and Warlord traits
For More on the Codexes Greater Daemons, have a look at:
My Review of the Greater Daemons

To have a look at my previous review of the space marine codex, follow this link, then click on any image for that section of the Space Marine Codex.

Enjoy!

I feel like you need to play the book more to do a proper review because some of what you say is just wrong. Especially when it comes to Nurgle stuff.

1.) It is really not difficult to conga line back a beast squad or Drone squad to keep them with FNP. Making the Nurgle Herald pretty good.

2.) The Nurgle Herald can get AP2 just like everyone else just take a Greater Ether Blade or etherblade (SO he is S5 or 6 AP2...pretty good.)

3.) Bale Sword is probably the best Weapon of any Greater Rewards on an MC Poisoned 4+ Instant Death. So throw it on a Nurgle Daemon Prince, now you have a riptide/wraithknight killer (5 attacks, that kill on a 4+) and against T6 or less targets you are re-rolling wounds and instant killing.

Overall not a bad review but thus far feels a bit biased in areas and not really based of experience using the book.

Breng77 wrote:
I feel like you need to play the book more to do a proper review because some of what you say is just wrong. Especially when it comes to Nurgle stuff.

1.) It is really not difficult to conga line back a beast squad or Drone squad to keep them with FNP. Making the Nurgle Herald pretty good.

2.) The Nurgle Herald can get AP2 just like everyone else just take a Greater Ether Blade or etherblade (SO he is S5 or 6 AP2...pretty good.)

3.) Bale Sword is probably the best Weapon of any Greater Rewards on an MC Poisoned 4+ Instant Death. So throw it on a Nurgle Daemon Prince, now you have a riptide/wraithknight killer (5 attacks, that kill on a 4+) and against T6 or less targets you are re-rolling wounds and instant killing.

Overall not a bad review but thus far feels a bit biased in areas and not really based of experience using the book.

I'm going to disagree categorically with the first point. While it isn't hard, it doesn't mean he isn't lacking. He removes fleet from both the BONs and the Plague Drones, and he limits the effectiveness of the Plague Drone's Movement. They have a phenominal movement average of 21" per turn, and being limited by a character who cannot move more than 6" per turn will hurt that no matter who you are. I don't think it's unreasonable that the herald could pay a premium to ride a plague drone, do you?

You're quite right that they do have access to the Etherblade, but I don't feel that that justify's them as characters. Aside from nurgle Daemon Princes, no nurgle character has an effective chance of getting into combat, making AP2 rather wasteful on them.

to Three, Do I make a claim that discredits this, breng? In my review of that specific weapon I do mention that it could be useful on a GUO - but I still maintain that a GUO can't get into combat well before turn four at the very latest, and I Don't think that makes the 250 point investment worthwhile. The same is true of the Daemon Prince - it's a fantastic weapon that far outstrips the effects of the Axe of Khorne in effectiveness, and the Daemon prince could very easily get into close combat, but the problem with making arguments for the Daemon Prince against me is that I am yet to review them as a unit. (I've made the decision that they're more aptly written about in the Heavy support rather than in HQ, for obvious reasons.)

I'm not very experienced in Nurgle, you're correct there, since I've played a khornic army, but I don't think to categorically say that what I say is just wrong. It's all just an opinion. To me, your opinion that you can reasonably congaline a squad of BONbons or a Drone squad is just wrong. That doesn't make your opinion on them less valid, it just means that it doesn't agree with my opinion.

Seeing as I have consistently gotten my Heralds Of Nurgle Attached to BON into combat, (including killing an Ovesastar twice now, which required running across the entire table among other things) makes your opinion that they cannot get into combat wrong...large squads of Drones or beasts can easily conga line, then when you charge it drags the heralds forward quickly. It is not difficult at all. Having them with Greater Etherblades means they dice up squads when they hit...and it keeps them cheap. SO my experience trumps your opinion in this case I think. I used to share your opinion before I started trying the beasts with herald...and they work just fine.

Would I love to have them ride a drone...absolutely...does that make them bad...not at all. I would argue that short of the Herald of Tzeentch they are the next best herald, mostly due to which squads they can join.

As for using the DP against you...sure you have not reviewed it but when you state: "Frustrating and not very useful, given that nothing worth instant-killing has a bad enough armour save to make its rule worthwhile. Might be useful on a great unclean one, who would get a re-rollable 2+ to wound and would cause instant death at AP2." and don't acknowledge the DP, it makes the weapon sound bad. If you wanted to review these only with models you have reviewed then you should have left them until the end.

I'm going to assume your anti DP argument goes....Since you will always take FW, you'll never have a Nurgle DP so the usefulness is irrelevant.

Essentially when you rate Karnak higher...to me that reads as Bias...He would be good if anything worth attaching him to was good (he is a waste in Flesh hounds,so that would be Bloodletters, or BloodCrushers.) Bloodcrushers are bad, and you are better spending points on more Hounds....at which point a Khorne Herald is better.

Breng77 wrote:
Seeing as I have consistently gotten my Heralds Of Nurgle Attached to BON into combat, (including killing an Ovesastar twice now, which required running across the entire table among other things) makes your opinion that they cannot get into combat wrong...large squads of Drones or beasts can easily conga line, then when you charge it drags the heralds forward quickly. It is not difficult at all. Having them with Greater Etherblades means they dice up squads when they hit...and it keeps them cheap. SO my experience trumps your opinion in this case I think. I used to share your opinion before I started trying the beasts with herald...and they work just fine.

Would I love to have them ride a drone...absolutely...does that make them bad...not at all. I would argue that short of the Herald of Tzeentch they are the next best herald, mostly due to which squads they can join.

As for using the DP against you...sure you have not reviewed it but when you state: "Frustrating and not very useful, given that nothing worth instant-killing has a bad enough armour save to make its rule worthwhile. Might be useful on a great unclean one, who would get a re-rollable 2+ to wound and would cause instant death at AP2." and don't acknowledge the DP, it makes the weapon sound bad. If you wanted to review these only with models you have reviewed then you should have left them until the end.

I'm going to assume your anti DP argument goes....Since you will always take FW, you'll never have a Nurgle DP so the usefulness is irrelevant.

You *really* need to cut back on the number of ellipses you use. None of them are used correctly.

Your experience never trumps an opinion, because an Anecdote is never a good argument. Now then, What do you mean by run? You can't run a herald. He is literally incapable of running. He must move no more than 6" per turn, moving an average of 25" if he charges (6" move, 7" charge, 3" pile in 3" pile in at end), assuming you can get into combat WHILE maintaining coherency.

I haven't reviewed the Daemon Princes yet. Stop putting words in my mouth, Breng. If it'll put your presumptuous heart at ease, no, I don't believe Fateweaver is an Autotake. Fateweaver is all about control, but control doesn't always suit your army. Sometimes, it is better to lose that control in favour of survivability, which is potentially what you get with the Nurgle DP's shrouded.

Resisting the urge to be a moderator......

Thanks for posting this. Although the CD dex has been out for a bit, its really interesting to see some of your insights. I hope you update it as more thoughts come to you

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Seeing as I have consistently gotten my Heralds Of Nurgle Attached to BON into combat, (including killing an Ovesastar twice now, which required running across the entire table among other things) makes your opinion that they cannot get into combat wrong...large squads of Drones or beasts can easily conga line, then when you charge it drags the heralds forward quickly. It is not difficult at all. Having them with Greater Etherblades means they dice up squads when they hit...and it keeps them cheap. SO my experience trumps your opinion in this case I think. I used to share your opinion before I started trying the beasts with herald...and they work just fine.

Would I love to have them ride a drone...absolutely...does that make them bad...not at all. I would argue that short of the Herald of Tzeentch they are the next best herald, mostly due to which squads they can join.

As for using the DP against you...sure you have not reviewed it but when you state: "Frustrating and not very useful, given that nothing worth instant-killing has a bad enough armour save to make its rule worthwhile. Might be useful on a great unclean one, who would get a re-rollable 2+ to wound and would cause instant death at AP2." and don't acknowledge the DP, it makes the weapon sound bad. If you wanted to review these only with models you have reviewed then you should have left them until the end.

I'm going to assume your anti DP argument goes....Since you will always take FW, you'll never have a Nurgle DP so the usefulness is irrelevant.

You *really* need to cut back on the number of ellipses you use. None of them are used correctly.

Your experience never trumps an opinion, because an Anecdote is never a good argument. Now then, What do you mean by run? You can't run a herald. He is literally incapable of running. He must move no more than 6" per turn, moving an average of 25" if he charges (6" move, 7" charge, 3" pile in 3" pile in at end), assuming you can get into combat WHILE maintaining coherency.

I haven't reviewed the Daemon Princes yet. Stop putting words in my mouth, Breng. If it'll put your presumptuous heart at ease, no, I don't believe Fateweaver is an Autotake. Fateweaver is all about control, but control doesn't always suit your army. Sometimes, it is better to lose that control in favour of survivability, which is potentially what you get with the Nurgle DP's shrouded.

I did not literally mean that they would run in the shooting phase, just that they where hoofing it (if you prefer) with the beasts. So yes his movement is average at about 25" in a charge turn. So if you run with say 5 beasts, and he trails behind the front guys by about 15" or so. Pretty easy to do with coherency. I'm still of the opinion that when I've actually used something a ton, and you have no experience except for what you have on paper, that experience counts for something. Furthermore, check TOF for articles on Dronestar, using 3 heralds (including EPI) and 9 Plague Drones. Which made it to the final table of a 50 man GT. So it would seem that what you suggest won't work is working for people.

Like I said I think your review is good overall. But it lacks a roundedness in experience with things in the book and seems slanted toward khorne in the exception of Some Tzeentch things.

Breng77 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Seeing as I have consistently gotten my Heralds Of Nurgle Attached to BON into combat, (including killing an Ovesastar twice now, which required running across the entire table among other things) makes your opinion that they cannot get into combat wrong...large squads of Drones or beasts can easily conga line, then when you charge it drags the heralds forward quickly. It is not difficult at all. Having them with Greater Etherblades means they dice up squads when they hit...and it keeps them cheap. SO my experience trumps your opinion in this case I think. I used to share your opinion before I started trying the beasts with herald...and they work just fine.

Would I love to have them ride a drone...absolutely...does that make them bad...not at all. I would argue that short of the Herald of Tzeentch they are the next best herald, mostly due to which squads they can join.

As for using the DP against you...sure you have not reviewed it but when you state: "Frustrating and not very useful, given that nothing worth instant-killing has a bad enough armour save to make its rule worthwhile. Might be useful on a great unclean one, who would get a re-rollable 2+ to wound and would cause instant death at AP2." and don't acknowledge the DP, it makes the weapon sound bad. If you wanted to review these only with models you have reviewed then you should have left them until the end.

I'm going to assume your anti DP argument goes....Since you will always take FW, you'll never have a Nurgle DP so the usefulness is irrelevant.

You *really* need to cut back on the number of ellipses you use. None of them are used correctly.

Your experience never trumps an opinion, because an Anecdote is never a good argument. Now then, What do you mean by run? You can't run a herald. He is literally incapable of running. He must move no more than 6" per turn, moving an average of 25" if he charges (6" move, 7" charge, 3" pile in 3" pile in at end), assuming you can get into combat WHILE maintaining coherency.

I haven't reviewed the Daemon Princes yet. Stop putting words in my mouth, Breng. If it'll put your presumptuous heart at ease, no, I don't believe Fateweaver is an Autotake. Fateweaver is all about control, but control doesn't always suit your army. Sometimes, it is better to lose that control in favour of survivability, which is potentially what you get with the Nurgle DP's shrouded.

I did not literally mean that they would run in the shooting phase, just that they where hoofing it (if you prefer) with the beasts. So yes his movement is average at about 25" in a charge turn. So if you run with say 5 beasts, and he trails behind the front guys by about 15" or so. Pretty easy to do with coherency. I'm still of the opinion that when I've actually used something a ton, and you have no experience except for what you have on paper, that experience counts for something. Furthermore, check TOF for articles on Dronestar, using 3 heralds (including EPI) and 9 Plague Drones. Which made it to the final table of a 50 man GT. So it would seem that what you suggest won't work is working for people.

Like I said I think your review is good overall. But it lacks a roundedness in experience with things in the book and seems slanted toward khorne in the exception of Some Tzeentch things.

0 experience with tzeentch. I just really like Flickering Fire of Tzeench ()

As I said with the SM codex, These are just opinions at the end of the day. Take them or leave them. IF you'd like me to add your opinion to the post regarding Heralds, I'd be more than happy to do so with credits. I just feel I still struggle to see the value in Nurgle Heralds, although you do raise some very reasonable points.

I agree it is hard to see for a long time I shared your view of them. No steed = too slow to be good. They are harder to use but their units are super durable (beasts with 5+/5+ FNP and 4 wounds + shrouded), so in a world of Tau and Eldar Shooting they can survive decently well, especially with added threats on the field.

Not really keen on Flicker fire after using it a bunch, it is situational and the multiple points of failure hurt it (Psychic test + Deny the Witch + Roll for shots + roll to hit + roll to wound + saves)- It can be really good, Fateweaver with his tons of Warp Charges and High BS can make good use of it. Horrors on the other hand tend to disapoint largely due to BS 3.

" A herald of Khorne can cut a riptide down to size quicksmart. "

but HOW DO i get to it

Depends on how many heralds you have. If you ahve multiple Dog squads and threats and LOS blocking terrain, you can make it in.

Breng77 wrote:
Depends on how many heralds you have. If you ahve multiple Dog squads and threats and LOS blocking terrain, you can make it in.

This. I regularly make it into close combat with riptides and tau. Heralds on jugglers are also supertough.

I find riptide heavy tau to be one of the easier tau match-up most because daemons don't care about quality fire.

Breng77 wrote:
I find riptide heavy tau to be one of the easier tau match-up most because daemons don't care about quality fire.

Completely agree.

I think you are spot on with the nurgle herald if you deploy him at the start. Lack of speed is annoying, and means that he generally will do all of jack and crap during the game. BUT...dont discount the deepstriking herald with plaguebearer retinue. The nurgle powers are pretty damn sick (pun intended). Deep strike into the backfield and vomit all over whats back there. FNP toughness 4 plague bearers are about as tough as marines vs small arms fire and tougher vs ap 3 or 2. And it does not hurt to have a tooled up herald with 4 wounds, toughness 5 and FNP

I also do not think that the tzeentch or slaanesh heralds need their mounts to be effective. tzeentch heralds on foot work just fine when put into a big blob of horrors. The same goes for the slaanesh herald leading deamonettes.

the42up wrote:
I think you are spot on with the nurgle herald if you deploy him at the start. Lack of speed is annoying, and means that he generally will do all of jack and crap during the game. BUT...dont discount the deepstriking herald with plaguebearer retinue. The nurgle powers are pretty damn sick (pun intended). Deep strike into the backfield and vomit all over whats back there. FNP toughness 4 plague bearers are about as tough as marines vs small arms fire and tougher vs ap 3 or 2. And it does not hurt to have a tooled up herald with 4 wounds, toughness 5 and FNP

I also do not think that the tzeentch or slaanesh heralds need their mounts to be effective. tzeentch heralds on foot work just fine when put into a big blob of horrors. The same goes for the slaanesh herald leading deamonettes.

Very correct on that mathammer. a 5+ Invuln with a 5 FNP is better than a 3+ save in almost any given situation. (except AP4 or worse Instant death weapons.)