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So I've put together a disgusting 350 point Black legion Prince. My local decided that the BL supplement doesn't place the restriction on artefacts that they must replace a weapon.

So my DP - A daemon of Khorne, has wings, power armour, gift of mutation, the hand of darkness, the skull, and the spineshiver blade. He is 350 points. Has 6 + D6 attacks on the charge with his S7 daemon weapon at initiative 9, or the hand of darkness allowing him to insta kill things like wraithknights. He has a 3+ and a 5++ and eternal warrior, so I think he's pretty vile.

Be'lakor is the same points. He doesn't have a daemon weapon so only has 6 attacks on the charge at S7. He has no armour save but a 4++ invulnerable, and a 5++ shrouded save. He has an extra wound than mine, but 1 less initiative and no furious charge. He generates more warp charge (sometimes) but here's the best part - he knows EVERY telepathy power! Which is drawing me towards him....

So which would people take??

I believe he's actually only S6 but do remember that his weapon is both Armorbane and Fleshbane, so he's always wounding on a 2+. Casting invisibiliy on himself also grants him a 2+ cover save in area terrain and makes his opponents swing at WS1 in combat, which means they'll be rolling on 5's to hit him. Be'lakor too is eternal warrior so it's a draw there. Over all, I find Telepathy too good to pass up, as he'll already wreck just about what ever he runs into. (barring failing LD against mindshackle scarabs, and you're daemon weapon won't be doing you any favors then )

Here's a question, is multiple shrouded cumulative? So he has shrouded as standard, if he then cast invisibility on himself, would he be 2+ in the open? I know shrouded will stack with his 5+ jink save when flying!

Be'lakor in most cases given that his access to all of telepathy makes him more than just an expensive beatstick and can actually act as a force multiplier with awesome buffs like invisibility or game-changing powers like using terrify on a blob of 11+ boyz after they lost combat on an objective. It's only more compounded from the fact that he can get to cast even more than the average daemon prince thanks to him getting D3 more warp charges if even 1 enemy unit fails morale and flees which is pretty damn easy with telepathy spells.

I don't believe shrouded is cumulative by itself, the clause under the rule only states that it stacks with other sources of cover like stealth or area terrain.

I'd say it does stack and he's 2++ in the open?


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Also, does he get D3 per enemy that fails?

No, he only gets a flat D3 if one or more units fail.

That's a shame. Coulda been horrendous if you could cast EVERY power.

I've read the shrouded rule, if you cast invisibility on himself then it definitely stacks and he gets a 2++

Are you aware that the DP of khorne cannot be given psyker levels?

I prefer Be'Lakor myself but here are a few things to think about.

The hand of darkness is pretty terrible at killing most MC or even WK. Remember that you have a 33% chance to just miss outright after hit and wound (smash) you have a ~55% of actually killing the WK without any invulnerable save. Against most MC it is even worse as they have invulnerable saves to ward it off. Then if it does work you are left out in the open to be shot at as you cannot control when you exit from combat.

Be'Lakor has shrouded so if he gets cover (almost assured due to model size) he is going to have 3+ or 2+ cover saves.

Be'Lakor's main purpose to be a toolbox using telepathy to support the rest of your army. Somebody bring a big gun; puppet master it, get into a melee you are likely to loose by just a bit; invisibility to make them hit on 5's, annoying riptide; dominate it so he has to test Ld every phase or miss it, etc. Be'Lakor is a fantastic tool box and creates entirely new tactics that didn't exist such as the invisible landraider buss.

Be'Lakor is a different sort of critter than a DP. He has fleshbane, armour bane, EW, and a 4++. So he is fantastic against big tough stuff like a wraithknight or riptide. Your DP is also good against MC and vehicles due to his smash attacks getting 1d6 attacks added to them but he has more chance for a major failure as the daemon blade hurts him on a roll of 1 and will take more damage with only a 5++ to rely on. Be'Lakor is also more resistant to normal fire as the proposed DP has a T5 and is too large to consistently keep out of LoS whereas Be'Lakor is small and has a T5.

One of the great things about Be'Lakor is you can control when you exit melee easier by using terrify and smash attacks tactically to cause the moral failures on your opponents turns. You cannot do this at all or as easily with the DP as there is no terrify meaning no running down fearless units.

Not sure why you'd even care if it stacks or not, since he, as an MC, can put his toe in cover and he gets 5+, which goes to 2+ with Invisibility. There are very few cases where that would even come into play.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's a shame. Coulda been horrendous if you could cast EVERY power.

I've read the shrouded rule, if you cast invisibility on himself then it definitely stacks and he gets a 2++

Not quite. Shrouded stacks with stealth. No matter how may "shrouded" you have, you only get +2 to cover.

"A unit that contains at least 1 model counts its cover save as being 2 points better than normal"

The next part " cover save bonuses from the shrouded and stealth special rules are cumulative"

The second line tells you that a unit with stealth and shrouded gets the benefit of both.

The first part does not say "for every instance of stealth the model counts its cover save as 2 better"
It says if at least 1 model has it, the unit has it.


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Also, are you giving the khorne demon prince psychic powers? That's not possible.

I've never given a Khorne daemon prince psychic powers, I don't know where that's come from...

So even though he has less attacks and no armour, people are swaying towards Be'Lakor?

Speaking of...that no armor actually helps him sometimes. Be'lakor don't give a s#!t about no grav guns, but they'll make you're DP cry.

And yes, Be'Lakor is the bees knees.

Dont forget Puppet Master on Be'Lakor.

Taking Riptides and making them shoot other Riptides or what not is really something special <3

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I've never given a Khorne daemon prince psychic powers, I don't know where that's come from...

So even though he has less attacks and no armour, people are swaying towards Be'Lakor?

Your first post. When comparing your khorne demon prince to belekor, you said;
"generates more warp charge (sometimes)"

Since the khorne prince can't take powers, why did you say belekor has more warp charges sometimes?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I've never given a Khorne daemon prince psychic powers, I don't know where that's come from...

So even though he has less attacks and no armour, people are swaying towards Be'Lakor?

People like Belakor because his psychic powers are ridiculous.

 BarBoBot wrote:

Your first post. When comparing your khorne demon prince to belekor, you said;
"generates more warp charge (sometimes)"

Since the khorne prince can't take powers, why did you say belekor has more warp charges sometimes?

My guess is it wasn't comparitive to his own daemon prince, but just an extra feature on Be'lakor that was pretty cool.

Anyway, I also vote Be'lakor. Daemon of Khorne = no go for me. Furious Charge on a unit that can simply sacrifice 2 attacks to be S10 anyway is so superfluous and unecessary. You realize with Smash that you only lose attacks out of your base, right? You'd still get + from charging, and the full benefit from the Daemon Weapon. Make the same guy you're using a Tzeentch Daemon and he's that much harder to kill, all the while having very, very little effect on his combat effectiveness.

Generating every power out of probably the most overall useful psychic discipline in the game (when taken in total) is just awesome. Drop invisibility on a throng of melee dudes or a vulnerable-that-turn vehicle. Puppet master a goddamn Imperial Knight and watch it unload on the guy who brought it, to totally turn the tables on someone bringing Lords of War. Terrify someone's riptide so it runs off the table. All sorts of deliciously fun stuff to do with him.

And, personally, I'd rather have the 4++ with rerolls of 1. (He's got Daemon of Everything, right, so that includes the Tzeentch rerolling 1s? Not sure exactly how he works to be honest). I actually don't really find the power armor upgrade to be all that worth it on a DP because the things that are actually a threat to him are already beating Armor 3+. Be'lakor is much more capable of handling 3++ stormshield terminators, for example.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Dont forget Puppet Master on Be'Lakor.

Taking Riptides and making them shoot other Riptides or what not is really something special <3

Yeah, puppet master is by far my favorite power (even if it's not strictly the strongest). I had Be'Lakor puppet a Space Wolves Vindicator three turns in a row. Needless to say, my buddy was quite happy when, on the third time, the pie plate scattered backwards, blowing up his own vindicator.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I've never given a Khorne daemon prince psychic powers, I don't know where that's come from...

So even though he has less attacks and no armour, people are swaying towards Be'Lakor?

Because being a psyker is really powerful, even with out the guaranteed telepathy powers

If Be'lakor is allowed, he's a must run in a Flying Circus type build. He's also a "heavily consider" in anytype of Chaos build. He is just so ridiculously good. To be that guy, plugging myself (sorry), I wrote a pretty long breakdown of all he brings to the fight: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/01/27/belakor-doing-work-a-battle-report/

Why would he not be allowed? It's an official GW data slate?!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why would he not be allowed? It's an official GW data slate?!

Exactly its a dataslate, a lot of groups don't allow them at all, nor do they allow Escalaition or Stronghold assault.

Well that seems terrible to me. If I went to a GW tournaments and I was told I couldn't use a GW model with GW rules I'd be infuriated!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Well that seems terrible to me. If I went to a GW tournaments and I was told I couldn't use a GW model with GW rules I'd be infuriated!

Not entirely true. People don't like Belakor because his rules weren't written by Games Workshop. His rules were written by Black Library. GW makes his model, but he is kinda a Black Library unit.

Its like if you are playing a Tau player and he pulls out a Forge World XV107 R'Varna. Anybody who knows what that implies responds, "Haha! Go F yourself." and walks away. Its rules don't just don't play.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Well that seems terrible to me. If I went to a GW tournaments and I was told I couldn't use a GW model with GW rules I'd be infuriated!

Perhaps you should sit down before I tell you this then, because GW doesn't hold tournaments, and the vast majority of the tournaments run by others do NOT allow many of GW's official rules and models such as data slates, stronghold assault, escalation, or forgeworld.


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Serg Rush wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Well that seems terrible to me. If I went to a GW tournaments and I was told I couldn't use a GW model with GW rules I'd be infuriated!

Not entirely true. People don't like Belakor because his rules weren't written by Games Workshop. His rules were written by Black Library. GW makes his model, but he is kinda a Black Library unit.

Its like if you are playing a Tau player and he pulls out a Forge World XV107 R'Varna. Anybody who knows what that implies responds, "Haha! Go F yourself." and walks away. Its rules don't just don't play.

R'varna has experimental rules. Belekor has official rules. Not the same thing.

My LGS has some restrictions on tournaments, but they always depend on the tournament. Generally people are cool with you using whatever. I would say at any day there is always at least one person running some sort of forgeworld. Most times people just ask, the opponent is generally excited to face something new. I mentioned getting a tesseract act and had 2 people ask if they could fight it.

Back on topic.

Belakor is better for battlefield control and support. He is still a daemon prince rocking armorbane and fleshbane, so his strength means little to nothing outside of instant death. Daemon princes are the bees knees, there is not much that will stand up to them in CC. Your looking at some greater daemons and friends, Destroyer lords, and maybe that avatar dude. I think your black legion daemon prince is going to be a bit overkill, though it would be fun to throw down with that many attacks

Your looking at pretty much the top tier of support and beatsticks, it comes down to how you like to play. I feel like the general consensus on the internet is "support is better". As you see fateweaver as a "must take" option, even by those who don't play daemons. If you favor the battlefield support though fear and murdering things in assault, go with the DP, if you like to buff and debuff, while also having a bit of a beatstick, go with be'lakor.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Speaking of...that no armor actually helps him sometimes. Be'lakor don't give a s#!t about no grav guns, but they'll make you're DP cry.

And yes, Be'Lakor is the bees knees.

Haha, yes I've used Belly Khorne to kill some dev cents with grav guns, the look on my opponents face when I told him belly has no armor save

But I would take Be'Lakor. He really is the perfect DP for that point value. He has the perfect balance of offense, defense, and utility. He just cant kill 2 squads per combat phase like a black mace DP or something like that.

The only time I wouldn't take Be'Lakor at 350 points is when your foe just has a bunch of troops and small stuff that you can't assassinate with your fleshbane/armorbane or abuse with your puppet master. For instance the other day I played against a necron guy with

overlord and immortals
some warriors
some scarabs
some of the hover biker guys
some destroyers
lych guard
wraiths

all of this at 1000 pts. Basically he was running MSU. I noticed there was nothing to assassinate with fleshbane/armorbane or abuse with puppet master so I ran the DoT mace prince for the ability to just kill lots of models. My DP ended up in combat with about 500 pts of crons at one point

So yeah I think you get the idea. Be'Lakor is a scalpel, Daemon Princes are steam rollers.

Serg Rush wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Well that seems terrible to me. If I went to a GW tournaments and I was told I couldn't use a GW model with GW rules I'd be infuriated!

Not entirely true. People don't like Belakor because his rules weren't written by Games Workshop. His rules were written by Black Library. GW makes his model, but he is kinda a Black Library unit.

Its like if you are playing a Tau player and he pulls out a Forge World XV107 R'Varna. Anybody who knows what that implies responds, "Haha! Go F yourself." and walks away. Its rules don't just don't play.

R'varna has experimental rules. Belekor has official rules. Not the same thing.

Actually, have you seen it's update? It did get nerfed. AP4 instead of 3, volley fire forfeits next turns shooting, and may only take the a positional relay and stimulant injector, the 4+ against shooting back to a 5+ against everything.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, have you seen it's update? It did get nerfed. AP4 instead of 3, volley fire forfeits next turns shooting, and may only take the a positional relay and stimulant injector, the 4+ against shooting back to a 5+ against everything.

Yes. It is better but it isn't fixed. You get free additional wounds for no other reason than the target is large. Monstrous creature? More wounds on top of that! Oh and because your target is large, the strength of the hit is magically increased. "Oh, I see your hive tyrant is in a bad way now... It would be a shame if I got to fire the same gun again." Yes, you don't get to fire it next turn, but the damage is already done.

I'm glad they did fix it some. But it still needs some more work.

Back on topic. Belakors rules would be fine if his point cost was increased.


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I play a power armor army so I'm fine with the rules on R'Varna. But I can see the argument by other armies.

Do you really think Be'lakor's rules are broken? He's 350 points! That's incredibly expensive in my eyes? There's very little in the game at that cost! Fatey is only 300! And perhaps a lot nastier!