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 Iechine wrote:
As a side note, arent smash attacks treated as AP1?

AP2. All "Smashing" does is increase Strength for reduced Attacks with a re-roll to pen.

Bloodly hell i think i need to retract my retraction.

Breaking it down they are not normal attacks but instead are direct hits resolved at users ST and only benefit from the users weapons special rules.

So I think i do need to return to the original no PE, no Poison that is not on the weapon it self, and no ap2.

Bleh hate doing that.

The source of abilities your allowed to use is restricted to those of the weapon, weapon abilities are listed with the weapon- or the weapon has a list of abilities attached to it.

Normally, with things like poison, force etc these are attached to the weapon ( but not in all cases ). Smash is attached to the model not the weapon. This is important rules wise because if they were attached to a weapon you would have to use the specific weapon in CC to use smash normally.

Sadly

As written, you can get more attacks at double strength with MSS, than what you can get from the model on it's own.

As intended, I think it was not intended to work that way.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Sadly

As written, you can get more attacks at double strength with MSS, than what you can get from the model on it's own.

As intended, I think it was not intended to work that way.

MSS inflicts d3 hits. There is no attack characteristic to halve.

I would say that you could because of the FAQ involving Force Weapons. Force weapons can cause ID not because they are a FW alone, but because the model has the ability to use a warp charge to activate it. Warp charges are not a property of the weapon, but a property of the model. So by the FAQ I am reading it as if you MSS something you have control over its actions completely. Smash is a property of the model involving attacks, just as ID can be attached to an unsaved wound from a FW, even though the warp charge required belongs to the model, not the weapon.

The automatic hits fron Mindshackle Scarabs are not close combat attacks and only give you permission to use the special rules of the weapon. The only time you would be able to use the model's own special rules is when a special rule of the weapon allows you to do so, such as Force.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The automatic hits fron Mindshackle Scarabs are not close combat attacks and only give you permission to use the special rules of the weapon. The only time you would be able to use the model's own special rules is when a special rule of the weapon allows you to do so, such as Force.

That is not true as far as I can see. MSS did not give you the ability to use a warp charge. You could use the weapon all you wanted, but the charge required was not an inherent ability of the weapon ... and still is not. The FAQ changed this by granting MSS access to the warp charge that the model has. This is why I am saying that MSS could allow smash.

If your assessment with MSS allowing you to use smash is true, how can you use it to cut the number of attacks in half if you only have hits?

 Nilok wrote:
If your assessment with MSS allowing you to use smash is true, how can you use it to cut the number of attacks in half if you only have hits?

MSS grants d3 hits.

Here is one for ya .. BA and Necrons against Chaos Marines and Deamons.

Chaos Marines brings a Sorcerer with a Force Sword and a Lighting Claw (He now has only 2 attacks). BA brings Dante and gibs the Sorcerer with the Death Mask (Ole Sorcey only has one attack now), the Necorns guy hits him with MSS. How many attacks would the Sorcerer hit himself with?

^ Zero attacks, d3 automatic hits.

 Nilok wrote:
If your assessment with MSS allowing you to use smash is true, how can you use it to cut the number of attacks in half if you only have hits?

It actually cuts the Attacks characteristic in half, so if the weapon itself had the Smash USR you could still halve your attacks characteristic. It still wouldn't work though, as you can only choose to make Smash attacks instead of close combat attacks, and the automatic hits from MSS are not close combat attacks.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The automatic hits fron Mindshackle Scarabs are not close combat attacks and only give you permission to use the special rules of the weapon. The only time you would be able to use the model's own special rules is when a special rule of the weapon allows you to do so, such as Force.

That is not true as far as I can see. MSS did not give you the ability to use a warp charge. You could use the weapon all you wanted, but the charge required was not an inherent ability of the weapon ... and still is not. The FAQ changed this by granting MSS access to the warp charge that the model has. This is why I am saying that MSS could allow smash.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test"

Is the weapon being wielded by a psyker? Yes
Did it inflict one or more unsaved wounds? Yes
Then this weapon special rule grants you permission to activate it by expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The automatic hits fron Mindshackle Scarabs are not close combat attacks and only give you permission to use the special rules of the weapon. The only time you would be able to use the model's own special rules is when a special rule of the weapon allows you to do so, such as Force.

That is not true as far as I can see. MSS did not give you the ability to use a warp charge. You could use the weapon all you wanted, but the charge required was not an inherent ability of the weapon ... and still is not. The FAQ changed this by granting MSS access to the warp charge that the model has. This is why I am saying that MSS could allow smash.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test"

Is the weapon being wielded by a psyker? Yes
Did it inflict one or more unsaved wounds? Yes
Then this weapon special rule grants you permission to activate it by expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test.

How many warp charges does a Force weapon have?

The Force special rule grants you permission to use a warp charge from the wielder, so who cares?

Also, even if the rule wouldn't normally allow you to activate Force weapons, the FAQ explicitly states that you can, so why even bother arguing?

Because it is that permission from the FAQ that, IMO, grants access to smash, an ability that the model has, not the weapon,

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Because it is that permission from the FAQ that, IMO, grants access to smash, an ability that the model has, not the weapon,

Expending a warp charge is part of the force weapon rule, which is attached to the weapon not the model. Models have warp charges but the ability to use it is attached to the weapon. Models also have weapons, but the rule says your allowed to use it and the rules on it.

In the case of smash, there is no part of that ability which is attached to the weapon, the weapon does not give permission to use smash - with force the weapon gives permission to use a warp charge.

I thought MSS were just Automatic Hits like Hammer of Wrath with the exception that you can use the special rules attached the users weapon/s. ie. Can you use smash in HoW? Nope. Should be the same for MSS as they're just auto-hits and not actually a CC attack. Like the Tesla special rule. Rolls of 6 generate 2 auto-hits. Auto-hits =/= CC or Shooting attack, they're their own thing.

Hammer of Wrath attacks are actually CC attacks, unlike MSS hits.

"At the start of the fight sub-phase, after charges have been made, but before any blows are
struck,randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base
contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That
model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the
test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the
test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of
attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or
himself, if on his own orin a challenge) when it is his turn to
attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and
benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses
which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive,
the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows
in thatround of combat have been struck.”

From the FAQ

Smash has 2 parts, one passive, the other an active choice made by the controlling player

The first applies to ALL close combat attacks. MSS are close combat attacks, therefore the attacks are AP2

"Smashing", to double strength, is a choice made by the controlling player. As this is NOT an abiolity of any melee weapon, the MSS player has NO permission to force the use of Smash.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The first applies to ALL close combat attacks. MSS are close combat attacks, therefore the attacks are AP2

Could you please prove this using relevant quotations of the rules?

Yes, Smash. It states all close combat attacks made by a model with Smash are AP2, unless they would be better.

Is a MSS'd model making close combat attacks? Yes, they just auto hit. Therefore, without the model owner getting a choice in the matter, they are AP2 (as this is a set value it is ALWAYS looked at last)

I am away from my rulebook, but it is one of thsose rules I tend to be very aware of, as I ran a black mace prince, so needed to explain he wasnt suddenly AP4.

The updated rules for Mindshackle Scarabs have been posted in this thread just above, which part of it states that they are close combat attacks?

sonicaucie wrote:
"At the start of the fight sub-phase, after charges have been made, but before any blows are
struck,randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That
model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the
test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or
himself, if on his own orin a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and
benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses
which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows
in thatround of combat have been struck.”
From the FAQ

I would like to point out the emphasis above: We are doing a "normal" attack, which smash isn't ("normal").

A) This may point as to why you can't use Smash attacks (not being the character's "normal" attack)

B) Would this mean that any character / MC that is NOT making a "normal attack" - required for MSS - can, by clear RaW here, actually drop out of MSS?

Also, note the part "At the start of the fight sub-phase, after charges have been made, but before any blows are struck". I do believe Smash has to choose to be used upon the model attacking (so at I2 etc) and a choice made then could only be done by the controlling player. The controller of the MSS only picks the weapon, i'd think the owning player still resolves the attack, dice roll etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The updated rules for Mindshackle Scarabs have been posted in this thread just above, which part of it states that they are close combat attacks?

I would say "when it is his turn to attack" means you are following the normal CC rules, and you may not shoot in CC, only attack with standard CC ruling (which is AP2 if you have smash)

Acid Blood is also resolved during an initiative step when locked on combat, yet it is not a close combat attack.
They are many different ways to cause hits beyond shooting and close combat, and a number of them can occur during combat.

I'm going to have to agree with PrinceRaven on this one - there's nothing in MSS that says these are Close Combat attacks and nothing that allows access to the models USRs - so

No smash, not the AP3, not the double strength - the AP3 is only for CC attacks and there is no access to the double strength choice.
PE/Poisoned only if it's the weapon, not if it's the model

It's important to note that even without using Smash you are still fighting at AP2.

I personally think that Smash would work if the owner of the creature were to declare it before...or after a Mindshackle Scarab Test was failed. But I am unsure of that order of operation.

 ductvader wrote:
It's important to note that even without using Smash you are still fighting at AP2.

No, you're not. Unless you have a reason?
Smash is what gives AP2. If Smash doesn't apply (due to not being a close combat attack) it's not AP2. If it does apply, why can you not make the choice?

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
It's important to note that even without using Smash you are still fighting at AP2.

No, you're not. Unless you have a reason?
Smash is what gives AP2. If Smash doesn't apply (due to not being a close combat attack) it's not AP2. If it does apply, why can you not make the choice?

I didn't say that Smash does not apply, just that you get it's effects without consciously choosing to use it. I don't have to choose to Smash to be AP2, I just have to have it.

As for not being able to make the choice, the model chooses to Smash, not the weapon.

Do Mindshackle Scarabs allow you to choose a GK Champion's Attack Stance? <-legitimate question.

But you only gain the benefits of Smash, whether choosing to use it or not, on close combat attacks.

And no, you do not get to use The Perfect Warrior, for the same reason.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
But you only gain the benefits of Smash, whether choosing to use it or not, on close combat attacks.

And no, you do not get to use The Perfect Warrior, for the same reason.

Do you get a choice to be AP2? I thought it was without choice. Because then Fexes could just AP6 themselves in Feed.