Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well this weekend I have a game coming up and I will be taking my TauCrons out for a spin against some DA. Personally I have never played this opponent or army before. From what research I have done and what I have heard, DA could be considered one of the worst armies in the game, but have a couple of build that can contend. I asked my opponent if he was just going to be using Dark Vengeance DA, and here is what he said;

DV Dark angels, swapped both HQs for belial, added deathwing knights and a rhino.

Could someone tell me how good Belial is and if Deathwing Knights are going to be difficult? We will be playing a 1k match if that helps let you know how much stuff he can take. I am going to be using more Tau than Necrons, but like the Necrons due to their tough troops. Since I will be taking a Riptide and Crisis suits, I can pack a fair amount of AP 1 and 2 via Fusion Blasters and Plasma Rifles.

What do you think? Just trying to get an idea of what I should expect. I have been playing well with Tau lately (7 wins in a row, usually at 1750 points) so I'm not expecting to be blown out or anything. Thanks for the support and help!

Belial's only noteworthy attribute is that he makes Deathwing squads scoring. He also costs about as much as an actual Terminator Squad for a SM Captain's statline. Note: Deathwing Squads. Deathwing Knights are not made scoring by Belial, and neither is anything else including Deathwing Command Squads.

Why would he be running Belial with DV? Does he have two boxes of DV? If he only has one standard DV box plus Deathwing Knights, that's only one scoring Terminator unit, and it has no Storm shields.

DW Knights have Storm Shields and they hit extremely hard for one turn. They will massacre any Tau unit in close combat. But they can't assault the turn the arrive.

I don't really see anything at all in the DV box that anybody would even need to be remotely concerned about. It's just a bunch of tacticals, some overpriced bikers and a regular Terminator Squad that should be easy to put down with Plasma.

If you really want to kill your friend (don't be mean, he has a bad list), just shoot all your Plasma at the Terminators and then throw all of the rest of your higher AP shooting at the Deathwing Knights. Those are literally the only thing on the board with the potential to kill anything of yours and therefore the only things you'll need to kill if you want to win. Or you could just let your friend have some fun because he's gonna have a hard time.

Honest oppinion? You'll table him. As a DA and tau player he will get crushed fast. DV only has the three bikes which have homing beacons so if he chooses to deathwing assault turn two he can avoid scatter. For deathwing assault he writes down which turn he wants his DV terminators and DW knights to come in, if he is deep striking them (which he should be) Belial makes the basic termis from the box troop choices. Belial is good in combat and can either come in a normal mode or with termi armour and twin lighting claws or thunder hammer storm shield for free. I don't remember what he has going stock because I always use TH/SS if I use him. The knights are stupid expensive but have a special once per game ability that can smash through almost anything in cc so it is better to thin them out before cc. Not sure what hes planning to do in rhino, maybe have his tac squad in but if so he should combat squad it and leave his plasma cannon to be firing. With AP 1 and 2 and that kind of tau range you should table him by turn 4 easy dependant on build.

Sounds like it will be a fun game (for me ) So it sounds simple enough. Now I also have a Destroyer lord and 3 wraiths to make a mini wraith star. I'm thinking (from the info that I have gathered) that they should just go after troops to kill them easily, and let the Tau take care of his Belial/Deathwing shenanigans. I will be pie plating him with my IA turn 1 and also have a very mobile farsight bomb that will allow me to jump up the field 24' due to GoI (sevrin loth) and then use my jetpack move to get into cover so shadowsuns stealth and shrouded give my whole squad 2+ cover

If we play a game with many objectives I should be able to kill him that way too. I'm taking 2 squads of Kroot, and 3 squads of Necron Warriors. I like my chances! Thanks for the help, and I would love more too, as long as there is more to say Thanks again!!

@TedNugent

I have no idea why he is running Belial. I get the felling that this guy is new, or returning to 40k from a while ago and doesn't really know the meta or what hes doing. Its just the single box that he has. I'm not intimidated at all by this "challenge" except for the fact that if I get cocky and play to offensively, and then loose the Farsight bomb, I could be presented with a very big problem. Ill probably just drop the Riptides pie plate on the Deathwing Knights (when you say higher AP do you mean lower AP but higher damage?) and everything else at them except the Farsight bomb. I will make a batrep for the game too so you all can see how it goes.

Sorry, if I restate little things like the batrep, I have a tendency to do that

You're taking a mix of competitive armies against one of the worst armies in the game.

You shouldn't be remotely surprised if you have ~95% of your stuff left by the time you table him by turn 3.

You said yourself this player is new or returning, so I don't understand why you wouldn't want to be easier on him.

I doubt he'll enjoy the match, but it sounds like that's what you're going for.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, other than to boast about it.

What Truth said.

As a DA player, you'll crush him without even trying. All you have to do is avoid being charged by the Knights and you won't lose much.

He will not enjoy the match. If you enjoy rubbing someone into the ground then you will, I guess.

To answer your question, no, it isn't hard. It will be stupid easy because of the army mismatch.

Run a softer list man. This is obviously an extremely casual game. The riptide alone could destroy him.

I mean really, the poor guy.

If you want to run the same list but have a more competitive match after you table him the first game let him proxy a RW comand squad with a librarian ML 2 on a bike and some other units bikes or other units not termies. If he goes for devs or tacs or vets tell him to take at least on power in divination for prescience and maybe the other in telepathy unless he rolled the ignores cover save the first time in divination then roll again and take the prescience. On the other hope for puppet master or hallucinate =)

Edit oh and put a Power field generator on the librarian.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Run a softer list man. This is obviously an extremely casual game. The riptide alone could destroy him.

I mean really, the poor guy.

First off I would like to comment on the fact that Imotekh, you changed your little flag from USA to AU. I miss your help and matches here in the States bro. Anyway, I digress;

I will make some edits to my list. So I dont want to just sound like I'm boasting or anything, I honestly just had no idea what to expect. I will take the plasma suits still, but not the melta ones. I will give them MPs instead and wont be DS anyone, I will be running it more like gun line Tau even though this is just then a bad gun line. I will still take the Riptide, but probably just won't nova charge. If Im not nova charging him then I will also give him an IA so he is only putting out 3 IA shots along with the TL SMS.

I don't really know what else to do other than just change up the Crisis Suits and tone down the Riptide. I could also just take a regular commander with some weapons other than the whole toolbox. What suggestions do you have that I could make other than 'dude tone it down." I have no problem doing that, but some actual suggestions would help even more.

Really the changes need to be made to his list more than yours. You can tone yours down some but just taking a bunch of plasma will kill most of his stuff no problem then just weight of fire the knights down while keeping distance.

pepe5454 wrote:
Really the changes need to be made to his list more than yours. You can tone yours down some but just taking a bunch of plasma will kill most of his stuff no problem then just weight of fire the knights down while keeping distance.

Sounds like it!

If you don't have a problem with him proxing allow him to try out some new units so he's not limited by the DV box. If he is getting pigeonholed into making a poor list due to available models have him try out some other stuff.
If he is determined to try what he's got Id say drop the riptide just for the sake it being 1k and use more crisis suits if you wanna stay competitive. I don't know what all units you possess to use in the game but if he is truly just returning but together a very simple list and test the waters. If he wins, so what, it boosts his ego some, make him a little more confident, and make him want to play with you more. You can always do a soul crushing defeat every once in awhile to remind him who's boss but let the guy ease into it (if he truly is new or just returning).
At 1k focus should be more on fun and play testing than on "let's see how far I can fit this boot up your ***".
Just my two cents have fun man!

So I played the game against him yesterday. I was buddying up with a friend so he could also learn how to play 40k as he is new. Here is the list I brought:

Primary: Tau

1x Commander - Iridium Armor, Drone Controller, C&CN, 2x Marker Drones

1x Riptide - IA, TL SMS, EWO, StimsInjector

1x Kroot Squad - 1x Kroot, 1x Hound, Sniper Rounds

1x Drone Squad - 6x Marker Drones

Secondary Detachment: Necrons

1x Destroyer Lord - MSS, Tachyon Arrow, RO

2x - 10x Necron Warriors

So I decided to test out the Marker Drones squad. I know that this list was kinda overkill taking the Riptide with IA, but it all worked out ok in the end. I was getting 8 markerlight hits per turn due to the 2+ hits the Drone Controller gave, and the re-rolling of 1s due to the C&CN. This was really devastating when the Riptide successfully nova charged. Being that my Commander was not very shooty (no weapons) I felt like having just the Riptide would be fair. Although I was un sure of how well this would preform, I felt like I would not do it again against this opponent. Here is my short recap of each turn.

Set Up:

Mission: Crusade (4 objectives)

Initiative: Dark Angels


Deployment:
I deploy the Tau and Necrons on two opposite sides of the board. We deployed on the long table edges. Each two squads of 10 warriors is on an opposite side, in ruins. On the left, the D-Lord accompanies a squad of 10 warriors. The Tau Commander and Marker Drones are behind this group. On the right, another group of 10 warriors, with the Riptide behind them.

My opponent deploys the DA like so. Squad of 3 bikes on my left hand side. Belial and Knights DS into middle of board. Terminators on the right hand side. Rhino with Tac Marines on the right hand side of the middle of the board, near the terminators.

Dark Angels Turn 1


Tau Turn 1


Dark Angels Turn 2


Tau Turn 2


Dark Angels Turn 3



Tau Turn 3



Dark Angels Turn 4

Unfortunately I'll have to leave the report here. Expect it to be totally finished sometime tomorrow mid afternoon.

Dark Angels are far from the worst codex in the game. Ravenwing Black Knight armies crush anything that doesn't have ignores cover and with Knight support can now handle the top Deathstar builds. SM/DA is a top tier build, as is DA/IG with Knights. Ravenwing is still one of the strongest monobuild armies in the game.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Dark Angels are far from the worst codex in the game. Ravenwing Black Knight armies crush anything that doesn't have ignores cover and with Knight support can now handle the top Deathstar builds. SM/DA is a top tier build, as is DA/IG with Knights. Ravenwing is still one of the strongest monobuild armies in the game.

Then what would you consider to be the most competitive DA build currently in the game? List?

From what I can see in your tag thing at the end, your Ravenwing army is doing very well. I havent heard of them before, what makes them so successful??

Also, storm shields! They really piss me off! They give a 3+ invuln. to the guy taking it right?

RW is the primo DA choice, such a shame because my DW is painted up beautifully. Speed and those wonderful rad gernades.

Yes, Storm shield gives 3+ invuln. Luckily for DW knights too is that when model is in base contact with another one they get +1 T so only a vindicator will be instagibbing that.

I would agree with both sides of the "how competent is the DA codex" argument.

Overall, the codex is pretty bad. it is uninspired, full of mediocre units and outclassed in most ways by the SM codex. As other people have said here, DW are pretty terrible when used as a single force. They are incredibly over costed.

At the same time, ravenwing is still good and has some advantages over whitescars lists. Both black knights and bolterbanner can still play competitive lists.

So overall the codex is pretty bad. But competitive lists can still be made, but only by utilizing 2 or 3 of the choices.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I would agree with both sides of the "how competent is the DA codex" argument.

Overall, the codex is pretty bad. it is uninspired, full of mediocre units and outclassed in most ways by the SM codex. As other people have said here, DW are pretty terrible when used as a single force. They are incredibly over costed.

At the same time, ravenwing is still good and has some advantages over whitescars lists. Both black knights and bolterbanner can still play competitive lists.

So overall the codex is pretty bad. But competitive lists can still be made, but only by utilizing 2 or 3 of the choices.

You could say the same of any codex. Tyranids have the shortest shrift, being a truly BAD codex.

Although with the shift to a Knight meta what is considered good or bad is going to change, especially with IG coming out and Seer Councils/Beastpacks losing their top tier spot to Imperial armies with Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pre-Tau and Eldar I had never lost a game with this build:

Sammael
Lib, Bike, PFG
5 RWCS, Banner of Fortitude
5 RWCS, Standard

3x 3 man RW Bikes

5x Black Knights
5x Black Knights
Darkshroud

20 BKs with 2+ cover saves and FNP being jammed down your throat was something 95% of 40k armies couldn't handle before ignores cover became widespread. The only real threat were Vendetta spam and Necron Crossiant spam armies, and even then I could hide in cc/boost out of arcs, the game would generally come down to the turn 5 landing.

I agree with you whole heartlessly on Tyranids CODEX. The formations are what make them really a contender. Especially the Skyblight one. Anyways, I think that with the addition of Imperial Knights, the Imperium has its teeth back. Now almost all Adeptus armies are better contenders when fielding a knight.

Thanks for posting your list and thoughs! Sounds interesting. If you haven't already checked out the battle reports of them too, I would recommend it. I will have the rest if this batrep up tonight.

How are you running Sevrin Loth when your ally slot is taken by Necrons?

 Zande4 wrote:
How are you running Sevrin Loth when your ally slot is taken by Necrons?

I didn't run him in this game if you check out the list I posted of what I ran. I usually run him in my normal Farsight Bomb build so it has a lot of mobility, but I toned it down and took Necrons to make the game more interesting.

More of batrep finished, not totally

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I would agree with both sides of the "how competent is the DA codex" argument.

Overall, the codex is pretty bad. it is uninspired, full of mediocre units and outclassed in most ways by the SM codex. As other people have said here, DW are pretty terrible when used as a single force. They are incredibly over costed.

At the same time, ravenwing is still good and has some advantages over whitescars lists. Both black knights and bolterbanner can still play competitive lists.

So overall the codex is pretty bad. But competitive lists can still be made, but only by utilizing 2 or 3 of the choices.

You could say the same of any codex. Tyranids have the shortest shrift, being a truly BAD codex.

Come on now, this is not true of most of the new codices. Daemons, Eldar, Tau and SM, whilst they all have the obvious key units, are still full of different units and tactics to utilize.
Daemons for example will normally take fateweaver, but from there you get screamerstar, flying circus, dogrush, plaguedrone star and horde setups. Not to mention that 3 of their troop choices are viable.

The problem with DA is that ravenwing is the only competitive set up, and will always involve the same 4 units, with only a few potential additions to add variety:

Sammael
Librarian
RCS (Black knights)
RAS

Possibly a darkshroud.
Posibly a LRC (with bolterbanner lists)
Maybe typhoons if you are landspeeder inclined.

The only alternation available to the core of the army is whether to spam bolter banner and bikes, or get more Black knights.
This makes for quite a boring book overall, where most choices are not even considered.

Personally I'm using my bikes as whitescars more and more. I like the versatility provided by having so many scoring troops with special weapons, and once in higher point games there are a lot more options to pick from. Also wraithknights are very common in opposing lists, sometimes 2 or 3 in a list, and black knights struggle to bring them down (only 2.3 average wounds when firing rapid firing 8 plasma talons at a rad grenaded knight). Grav guns on the other hand, point for point, make short work of them.

I imagine dealing with imperial knights will also be a struggle for black knight spam lists. You really need those meltaguns.

I play DA and I find that the internet is full of DA hate because, unlike some other codex, we don't have an easy mode button that makes the game broken in our favor.

Do I think that our Codex is overpowered? No way. However, if you play smart you can make it work against other opponents.

I've defeated Tau, Ork, Chaos, IG, Eldar and BA armies before sometimes with ease and other times with great tactics. I don't win every time but I have fun and challenge myself often by keeping my tactics fresh and different.
In total, I've got around 6k in tri wing builds that I play with to get the most out of my army and units. I find that DA have great synergy. There are some units in our codex that stink (I'm looking at you (Dark Talon and Vengeance land speeder) and we also have some really expensive options that don't make sense (equipment or just some units overall) but I don't think that our codex is hopeless.

Sometimes I read some of the forum topics and I just picture a DA player comes to a tournament. The DA player unpacks his/her army and notices that he/she is against an Eldar/Tau Hybrid army. The DA player then just packs up all the models on the table, shakes hands, and goes to wait in the corner.

I think that the only thing that would stop all the DA bashing would be if DA players get this:

"Watcher in the Dark:" 70 points
----------------
WS:8 BS:8 S: D T:8 W:6 I:10 Ld:10 Sv:2+/2++

Monstrous Creature, Level 5 Psycher, Zelot , It will not die, Sky Fire, Intercept, Eternal Warrior

War gear
-BOOM STICK - S: D ,AP 2 2, Large Blast (ignore cover)
-BOOM WAND - S: D Template

-Robe of Darkness (once per turn; re-roll 1 failed save) , FnP

I respect the DA, but when I line up against them, I don't feel the helplessness that I do with many other lists.

It's not that DA are awful and will lose every game. No one is saying this.

But it is a fact that Codex DA is a poor mans SM codex in almost every aspect. Less choices, higher points cost and less special rules.

Their only saving graces that separate them from this analogy entirely are the DW, RW and divination PFG libbies.

Of these the libby can be gained as an ally if you need him.

DW just stink competitively. People play them for the fluff/challenge.

And whilst RW still have a few tricks and can still be competitive, whitescars are arguably the better bike army in many aspects.

I see the DA hate as entirely justified. It is not from a lack of a "win button" as you say, but rather from an ill conceived codex made as a guinea pig test prior to the release of the SM codex.
The fact that GW released the much improved SM codex that makes so many DA units obsolete in comparison is not fair on the player base who invested into it.
Besides the Ravenwing, (and Deathwing if you are a masochist), the best thing about DA is that because they are space marines, most of of the models can be played using rules from Codex SM instead.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It's not that DA are awful and will lose every game. No one is saying this.

But it is a fact that Codex DA is a poor mans SM codex in almost every aspect. Less choices, higher points cost and less special rules.

Their only saving graces that separate them from this analogy entirely are the DW, RW and divination PFG libbies.

Of these the libby can be gained as an ally if you need him.

DW just stink competitively. People play them for the fluff/challenge.

And whilst RW still have a few tricks and can still be competitive, whitescars are arguably the better bike army in many aspects.

I see the DA hate as entirely justified. It is not from a lack of a "win button" as you say, but rather from an ill conceived codex made as a guinea pig test prior to the release of the SM codex.
The fact that GW released the much improved SM codex that makes so many DA units obsolete in comparison is not fair on the player base who invested into it.
Besides the Ravenwing, (and Deathwing if you are a masochist), the best thing about DA is that because they are space marines, most of of the models can be played using rules from Codex SM instead.

The SM Codex has only 4-5 viable units, itself: Chapter Masters, Grav bike Command Squads, Bike Squads, Centurion Devastators and Thunderfire Cannon. GW is just bad at internal codex balance.

Terminators of all stripes are rubbish. In any case, monobuild has been dead since Tauar, Allies builds work best, and DA bring a lot to the table as either allies or primaries.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The SM Codex has only 4-5 viable units, itself: Chapter Masters, Grav bike Command Squads, Bike Squads, Centurion Devastators and Thunderfire Cannon. GW is just bad at internal codex balance.

Terminators of all stripes are rubbish. In any case, monobuild has been dead since Tauar, Allies builds work best, and DA bring a lot to the table as either allies or primaries.

No love for drop pod sternguard, or salamanders with flamers, storm talons or imperial first devastator squads on quadguns? Cover ignoring LotD with plasma weapons?? There is much more choice here, chapter tactics alone adds more alternate ways to play.

DA certainly bring a lot as allies. As the primary detachment though they are pretty much obsolete now.
An allies detachment can pretty much bring all the good parts of a primary detachment.

librarian on bike with PFG
RCS with ravenwing banner
5x scouts with snipers (still wish they could take a landspeeder storm so they fit better when allying with whiescars).
1 squad of black knights or a darkshroud.

What does this allied contingent not bring that a full DA primary does?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The SM Codex has only 4-5 viable units, itself: Chapter Masters, Grav bike Command Squads, Bike Squads, Centurion Devastators and Thunderfire Cannon. GW is just bad at internal codex balance.

Terminators of all stripes are rubbish. In any case, monobuild has been dead since Tauar, Allies builds work best, and DA bring a lot to the table as either allies or primaries.

No love for drop pod sternguard, or salamanders with flamers, storm talons or imperial first devastator squads on quadguns? Cover ignoring LotD with plasma weapons?? There is much more choice here, chapter tactics alone adds more alternate ways to play.

DA certainly bring a lot as allies. As the primary detachment though they are pretty much obsolete now.
An allies detachment can pretty much bring all the good parts of a primary detachment.

librarian on bike with PFG
RCS with ravenwing banner
5x scouts with snipers (still wish they could take a landspeeder storm so they fit better when allying with whiescars).
1 squad of black knights or a darkshroud.

What does this allied contingent not bring that a full DA primary does?

Drop pod Sternguard were good in 5th but no longer, especially with the prevalence of interceptor and Coteaz. Salamanders, for the same reason, no one actually plays them competitively. Imperial Fist Dev Squads are okay, but Centurions are much better (without having to go yellow to get Tank Hunter, they already re-roll.) Storm Talons are too squishy and unreliable unless playing Tigurius. LOTD have their own codex, and it's better than C:SM. I'm not saying there aren't other ways to play, but most competitive lists go for either Scars, Ultras for Tigurius or Red Scorpions for Loth. Red Hunters are the one exception, having placed in a major GT.

IG blob with Azrael is back with Knights, because Manticores are the best way to kill Knights- DA primary is viable again, if only for Azrael. RW/Scars or RW/Iron Hands can be also run either way now, with Knights on board Primary/Allied detachment distinctions aren't really that important.

So, no. No love to answer your question. Drop pod sternguard were always too expensive for the suicide missions they got.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
So I played the game against him yesterday. I was buddying up with a friend so he could also learn how to play 40k as he is new. Here is the list I brought:

Primary: Tau

1x Commander - Iridium Armor, Drone Controller, C&CN, 2x Marker Drones

1x Riptide - IA, TL SMS, EWO, StimsInjector

1x Kroot Squad - 1x Kroot, 1x Hound, Sniper Rounds

1x Drone Squad - 6x Marker Drones

Secondary Detachment: Necrons

1x Destroyer Lord - MSS, Tachyon Arrow, RO

2x - 10x Necron Warriors

Unless I am reading your list wrong it looks like your opponent won! Very nice of you to give him victory by not taking 2 troops choices in your primary detachment.