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Hello there,

The Iyanden Supplement replaces the Runes of Battle primaris power with "Voice of Twilight". This is a blessing that explicitly targets all friendly units within 12" of the caster and grants wraithguards, wraithblades, wraith lords and wraith knights the Battle Trance and Furious Charge rules.

Considering that my Spiritseer is usually riding shotgun with some wraithguard in a serpent, I'm wondering when exactly I can cast VoT. Blessings are cast before moving, so the first question is if it can be cast while the spiritseer and his wraithguard are in the serpent. Due to fact that Serpents do not have fire ports and that the Declare Target section in the psyker chapter of the BRB on p.67 explicitly states that LOS is required unless special exception is granted explicitly and that the spell automatically sets each friendly unit within 12" as target, I arrived at the conclusion that the spell cannot be cast in the serpent, unless no friendly units are within 12" of the serpent.

So far, I've been disembarking with the spiritseer & co and cast the blessing in the following turn, in the belief that I had to have LOS to each wraith unit. However, upon rereading the spell rule and noticing that while only the four wraith units are affected, all friendly units are targets. That makes (assumed) LOS requirement even more onerous.

As I read it, RAW, Voice of Twilight cannot be cast if a friendly unit is within 12", but out of LOS. That could be behind a wall, or inside/outside a serpent.
As I previously read it, I considered only wraith units and it was annoying but not quite as bad.

The only argument for LOS not being required I could come up with is that since all friendly units within 12" are automatically targetted by the blessing, the section "Declare Target" which includes the LOS requirement isn't invoked and it's content doesn't come into play.

Am I missing something RAW?
How would/do you play it?

Well you already know what I think. I believe you should be able to cast it from the inside of the vic until they FAQ it to say otherwise. Cause with the way its written the target has been set for you so you dont need to set a target therefore no need for LOS

I am pondering this little thought:
In situations where a Psychic Power causes X within a radius around the Psyker could it not be stated that the target of the power is the Psyker themselves?

JinxDragon wrote:
I am pondering this little thought:
In situations where a Psychic Power causes X within a radius around the Psyker could it not be stated that the target of the power is the Psyker themselves?

even if thats the case the psker can see himself inside a wave serpent and therefore it still goes off while he' s in the vic. But im pretty sure it doesnt specificly target anything. Just all friendlies in 12 and it helps ur wraith units.

JinxDragon wrote:
I am pondering this little thought:
In situations where a Psychic Power causes X within a radius around the Psyker could it not be stated that the target of the power is the Psyker themselves?

The first crunch sentence is: "Voice of Twilight is a blessing that targets all friendly units within 12". The second and third sentence ennumerate eligible wraith units and buffs respectively.

The explicit mention of all friendly units as targets stops us from claiming the target is only the psyker himself.
Unfortunately. =/

 Stephanius wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I am pondering this little thought:
In situations where a Psychic Power causes X within a radius around the Psyker could it not be stated that the target of the power is the Psyker themselves?

The first crunch sentence is: "Voice of Twilight is a blessing that targets all friendly units within 12". The second and third sentence ennumerate eligible wraith units and buffs respectively.

The explicit mention of all friendly units as targets stops us from claiming the target is only the psyker himself.
Unfortunately. =/

I think it was just a proposed idea for powers that arent specific as to who or what there target is.
See that one of the tricky things about VoT is that it target ALL friendly units within the AOE not just the wraith type units. So as you mentioned in the
previous forum if you played with RAW from the BRB even if you had a small group of whatever lets say warp spiders on the other-side of a wall or hill
and you used the spell, it wouldn't go off cause they are friendly and not within LOS. That in my opinion makes no sense and i believe its just lack of
clarification on the writers part. Which is why i said what i said before which is i'd play it as an AOE with no need for LOS until there are FAQ's that say
otherwise.
;

Dang, I knew I would have to review the Rule itself for something more on-thread but I was hoping my statement would last longer as a thought experiment at least, a general 'if it just states a radius then the target could be the center of that radius' line of thought....

To be honest, the whole question of 'how does it go about targeting' has put me in an uncertain position concerning this topic. One that would involve a lot of research into several places, including the wording of other 'automatically target X' Rules, and see if they take the Line of Sight requirements into account or not. Given that I don't have the time in the next few days, I still have a list of other Rule interactions that I have been forgetting about in intoxicating hazes, I don't think I will be able to supply you with a very satisfactory answer any time soon. The more I twist it the more I bounce between the two possible answers, so hopefully I will remember this question long enough to review it in-depth.

At the LGS I go to it is played as AoE which does not need LoS to units. Also my meta is WAAC competitive (just for those who want to know).

 Arbiter wrote:
At the LGS I go to it is played as AoE which does not need LoS to units. Also my meta is WAAC competitive (just for those who want to know).

My LGS plays it the same way, and we have a very casual meta.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
At the LGS I go to it is played as AoE which does not need LoS to units. Also my meta is WAAC competitive (just for those who want to know).

My LGS plays it the same way, and we have a very casual meta.

Yeah thats how i think i will play it. If the other person has an issue we can hash it out on a game by game basis.

The first line of "declare target" in the psykers section says "IF the psychic power requires a target, you must nominate it at this point.". Voice of twilight does not require a target, it already has it's target, nor does it require you to nominate anything. All friendly models within 12" are automatically targeted allowing you to skip this step completely. Since the LOS requirement is in the targeting step, you do not need LOS.
Furthermore if the seer is in a transport, then the range for the 12" around him is measured from the hull of the vehicle, giving you an even further range for your power.

Bojazz wrote:
The first line of "declare target" in the psykers section says "IF the psychic power requires a target, you must nominate it at this point.". Voice of twilight does not require a target, it already has it's target, nor does it require you to nominate anything. All friendly models within 12" are automatically targeted allowing you to skip this step completely. Since the LOS requirement is in the targeting step, you do not need LOS.
Furthermore if the seer is in a transport, then the range for the 12" around him is measured from the hull of the vehicle, giving you an even further range for your power.

Thank you, Thats what i thought it was as well.

Bojazz,
Can the Logic be universally applied:
Let us state that I have a model, a building in this case, which has an automatic target rule that removes the nomination process completely from my hands. This building has the ability to bring a large blast marker based weapon to the field, but this weapon is lacking barrage or other Special Rules to grant it the ability to ignore Line of Sight requirements within the nomination process. The closest enemy model from this weapon is on the other side of a wall, the entire Unit is concealed this way. Would you allow me to state that the targeting process is chosen for me, so therefore the target is legal as the Line of Sight requirement is within the nomination process, and fire the weapon?

I still support the Intention of the Writers to make this a bubble that does not require line of sight, but the proof is more in formatting and language used then Rule Application as the above question has so carefully hidden.

That's actually a really good point Jinx, but surprisingly, I would let you ignore LOS. It's strange to see myself type that, but let me explain;

Not sure if it was intentional or not, but you just described automated fire on emplaced weapons. (minus the large blast template). If a building is occupied, any unmanned weapons automatically fire at the nearest enemy unit. p.96 under "automated fire". Here they actually felt it necessary to point out that even though it automatically targets the closest unit fires at it, they must be in range and LOS. If I were to imagine that instead of the wording in the BRB, it had your hypothetical building rules and said "places a large blast marker on the nearest enemy unit", then I would absolutely let you ignore LOS, as it just says that it places the template on them. So I guess my answer is a tentative yes? It would depend heavily on the exact wording of the special rule in question.

Bojazz,
I know how it feels to type those words as I had to delete them a few time, I was more curious to the conclusions you would draw and not the ones I found myself drawn to.

I did feel obligated to put some warning down, the question was loaded by the deliberate removal of something that is present in nearly every other 'automatically target X' Rule: Self-Contained requirements on what is and is not a legal target. The Rule in question is unusual because it lacks this Restriction and that does seem important enough to just wave away. However it is likely far easier to prove the Writers Intention on removing this line, if anyone protests at the table, then to find some Rule as Written debate which states that the removal of this text satisfies a 'Specific Exception' to a Restriction. After all there are many whom believe that a Restriction is always in play even when using alternative instructions, unless specifically mentioned by those instructions, and I doubt the argument that a Specific Exception can be created by admittance is going to be successful.

So as far as Intent goes:
The deliberate removal of a clear cut Restriction so very commonly seen in other Rules speaks volumes to if this specific Special Rule Line of Sight requirements.

I'm not sure how you get past :

"Unless otherwise stated, the Psyker must have line of sight to his target."

It then goes on to tell you explicitly what it means:

"This means that a Psyker embarked on a Transport can only target himself, his vehicle or another unit embarked on the same vehicle of the Psyker."

There is no requirement that the Psyker have chosen the target or the power itself chose the target. The targets are the Psyker's targets. He is casting the power. Compare it to the wording of Novas.

Angelic,
The comparison to novas is really good. Novas state that they target all units within X" AND ignore LOS, whereas voice of twilight only state that they target all units within X". I have no rebuttal to that.

So I suppose the way to play it would be that he can always cast the power, but it would only affect himself, his unit, and his transport, and then the power would just sort of fizzle out for everything else? It seems strange, but.. that wording for Novas... I can't refute it.

In my opinion, the Voice of Twilight rule is simply written poorly - or rather without considering all the implications players like us will find.

I have absolutely no problem with units outside of LOS not getting the blessing. That would be in line with other blessings and makes using the spiritseer council rule from the Iyanden supplement more useful.
Want four groups of 5 wraithguard to hop out of a serpent with battletrance? Fine, bring a spiritseer for each of them. That'll be 280 points please!

I do have a problem with the poor choice of wording leading to the conclusion that any friendly unit outside of LOS but forced as target implies that the blessing cannot be cast at all.
[Want wraithguards to hop out a serpent with battletrance? No problem, just make sure there is no other unit from your side within 12" of the serpents hull outline!

The later example hopefully makes clear how RAW cannot have been RAI here. : /


HIWPI: "Voice of Twilight is a blessing that affects all friendly units which are no further than 12" from the spiritseer and in line of sight".
That would prevent the seer hiding in his taxi and allow use of the spell on a group embarked with the seer.

The psyker rules are explicit in that a psyker in a transport can only target the transport, himself or the unit in there with him .

Fragile wrote:
The psyker rules are explicit in that a psyker in a transport can only target the transport, himself or the unit in there with him .

Yes, found in the BRB p.67 under Declare Target, just like the general LOS requirement.

Voice of Twilight states that all friendly units withhin range are targets. That is unlike any other blessing, since the target is usually either preset to the psyker and/or his unit where LOS isn't a factor, or free choice of the player, limited by range and/or target properties like unit type.

Now, considering that typically a blessing has only one target, the instruction that all friendly units in range are targets allows us to do something we usually cannot do - it is a permission.

Keeping that in mind, we follow the psyker rules along to the declare target section. The first sentence instructs us to nominate a target if one is required. Then follow restrictions on what valid targets are.

Voice of Twilight does not require a target to be nominated or declared. Ergo restrictions applicable to the choice of the target or the entire declare target section do not apply.

 Stephanius wrote:

Voice of Twilight does not require a target to be nominated or declared. Ergo restrictions applicable to the choice of the target or the entire declare target section do not apply.

False premise and conclusion. It does require a target. The choice is simply made for the player, instead of by the player. The power can be cast even if no other unit is in range or LoS as the Spiritseer and his unit is a friendly unit within 12". The restrictions listed in the rule are not only applicable to "choice" of target, but are applicable to all targets. Every single Blessing and Malediction begins with "is a blessing that targets..." Whether it says "all targets", "a single enemy unit", "single friendly unit", or "the psyker", it must abide by the same restrictions.

As I said in the original post, I have been playing it assuming that I need LOS to all eligible wraith units.

However, since all friendly units are targetted by the spell and by that logic all units must be in LOS, many situations are created were the spell cannot be cast even if the psyker is attached to the only eligible unit of wraith, simply because the line of sight requirement is not met for all friendly units in range.

I posted this thread with the question because the RAW implication is either very cruddy design or the designer expected Declare Target to be not applicable.

 Stephanius wrote:
many situations are created were the spell cannot be cast even if the psyker is attached to the only eligible unit of wraith, simply because the line of sight requirement is not met for all friendly units in range.

If they are not in range and LoS, then they are not legal targets. A power can be cast so long as there is at least one legal target. That means that Voice of Twilight can always be cast as there is always 1 legal target, the caster himself.

Angelic wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
many situations are created were the spell cannot be cast even if the psyker is attached to the only eligible unit of wraith, simply because the line of sight requirement is not met for all friendly units in range.

If they are not in range and LoS, then they are not legal targets. A power can be cast so long as there is at least one legal target. That means that Voice of Twilight can always be cast as there is always 1 legal target, the caster himself.

If one legal target is sufficient (I would love a source for that!), we would be fine. Since all friendly units in 12" range are targets, I was under the impression that LOS requirements would apply to all and a single target not meeting the LOS requirement would prevent us from using the spell.

 Stephanius wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
many situations are created were the spell cannot be cast even if the psyker is attached to the only eligible unit of wraith, simply because the line of sight requirement is not met for all friendly units in range.

If they are not in range and LoS, then they are not legal targets. A power can be cast so long as there is at least one legal target. That means that Voice of Twilight can always be cast as there is always 1 legal target, the caster himself.

If one legal target is sufficient (I would love a source for that!), we would be fine. Since all friendly units in 12" range are targets, I was under the impression that LOS requirements would apply to all and a single target not meeting the LOS requirement would prevent us from using the spell.

Actually, I must correct myself. You don't even need a target to use a power. There is no requirement in the rules. They merely state what the effect of the power is on a "legal" target. If they aren't targets, the power has no effect.

Angelic wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
many situations are created were the spell cannot be cast even if the psyker is attached to the only eligible unit of wraith, simply because the line of sight requirement is not met for all friendly units in range.

If they are not in range and LoS, then they are not legal targets. A power can be cast so long as there is at least one legal target. That means that Voice of Twilight can always be cast as there is always 1 legal target, the caster himself.

If one legal target is sufficient (I would love a source for that!), we would be fine. Since all friendly units in 12" range are targets, I was under the impression that LOS requirements would apply to all and a single target not meeting the LOS requirement would prevent us from using the spell.

Actually, I must correct myself. You don't even need a target to use a power. There is no requirement in the rules. They merely state what the effect of the power is on a "legal" target. If they aren't targets, the power has no effect.

So back to square one, no target means no need for LOS which means it goes off inside the serpent.

Im not convinced that I am actually nominating a target. The power takes care of that portion with the way it is worded. If i dont need to nominate a target, what am I drawing LoS to?