Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hereos
lv1 priest channel staff
lv2 priest heirophant general

Core
30 archer banner musiscian

Special
25 tomb gaurd

Rare
Casket of souls

This worked great against an empire army that I tabled turn 4.But that was proxied. If I go through with this I will have to buy the tomb guard and a lich priest. What do you think? Tbe table are only 2 2' by 2' boards so chaff isnt something that is necessary.

Nobody?

I'd be inclined to drop the level 1, and make your liche priest level 3. Otherwise if you want to run Tomb Guard then you won't be able to fit much else in. Personally I prefer Sphinges at low points levels, but this would make a good army to expand from - later on you'll be wanting both these units in all likelihood.

I would also suggest dropping the level one, you are only likely to get so many power dice and you will want to save some for the Casket. I would also Chariots will serve you better then Archers, the reason for this is I would say about 1/2 of the players you will face will be Dark Elves or High Elves and against these low save high damage units having a unit of 3 Chariots putting 9-12 strength 4 auto hits before blows are struck is massive. This holds true for most low sae troops, but against Elves it can win games.

Archers are consistent I will give you, you can always assume to get 10 hits and 3 wounds vs T4 but picking models off usually doesn't win games. Charging and sweeping units does, and you already have a great anvil unit, why not add a hammer?

OK so drooping the lv one for a lv 3. My only concern with dropping archers for chariots is that I lose my caster bunker and with tomb kings, you NEED a caster bunker.

True, but you could stick him in the Tomb Guard and hope for the best. Personally I'd try to keep the archers; the problem is that TK just have a lot of things that they need to get going, and low points value games are particularly grim as a result.

How about I ditch the lv1 and keep one as a lv2 and grab chariots. That should leav me points for about 20 acrchers

IIRC i thought you had to have a prince or king as your general.

Pretty sure unless you have settra, your heirophant cannot also be your general.

Can you show me where? Because I can't find it.

That is not correct. You simply need a Hierophant: there is nothing stopping that Liche also being the General if he is the highest LD in the army.

He's thinking of the old book, where you needed both a general and a hierophant separately. New book you just need the hiero, and your general can be any character.

As for your list, I think that Tomb Guard are a lost cause at low points games. They're too slow, too fragile, you don't have the magic to keep them alive, and they're not going to kill much by the time they get to strike. They'll just crumble away and leave you with nothing.

I'd much rather have sphinges or snakes in a low point game, or bring skeleton warriors instead. Honestly though it's going to be an uphill struggle whatever you do, as TK don't really start to function properly until 1,500 points. We're a grinding army that needs bodies to grind, and bodies cost points that you just don't have to play with. Either you buy the proper sized units and get out maneuvered, or you buy enough units and but they're all too small to function properly.

Yah the old book required two.

Drop the lvl 1 as everyone said.

I would suggest getting 1 Tomb Scorpion or 3 Carrion. The reason is because it gives you something to do(!). The carrion can fly and thus get around and flank and have a lot of attacks in a small area.

The Scorpion has high S, poison, KB, and can Ambush if you really want. It's also high T and W and A. It's kind of a baby monster. Which is fun at your point level. And it will make some enemies afraid to move near him in case their characters get chopped up.

But mostly I think it would just be more enjoyable.

Honestly, I've only really found scorpions to be useful when run in pairs. Though they look really awesome on paper, in practice they have a tendency to whiff hard and die to SCR. They're just a bit too fragile to be a decent monster and a bit too expensive to be useful as chaff.

Two of them, though, is a bit more reliable. Now you have 8 attacks and two stomps, which is more than enough to overcome static combat res. They can also pin a unit and prevent it from turning around if you engage in multiple flanks. The trouble is getting them into those flanks with only M7 no marching, since EBTS is notoriously unreliable.

That's why I suggest a unit of 4 snakes. It's not going to break the bank, and with M7 swiftstride is decently maneuverable. You could even pair them with a scorpion if you want, though at this level you're probably tight on space.

He's in a 800pt fight on a small table. Scorps are pretty awesome. 2 scorpions is like 20% of his Specials which really cuts into his Tomb Guard which are the main unit.

Scorpions are a 1 unit max. So you can't have 2. And that limits their uses in a lot of ways, particularly the unit-based spells of TK.

Entombed is fine, but on such a small map it's easier to shoot off to somewhere you didn't intend--like back at your normal deployment area... But it's entirely optional.

4 snakes is a quarter of his entire army and a complete redesign. He is going drop his entire TG unit to pay for that. TG can probably cream most stuff at cost, with TK spells, at this point level. They're cheap, got decent Strength, T, and you can give them 5+ KB.

I don't think you are looking at what the OP stated his game was. I mean, you can give him a great Ogre army too to field, but that doesn't apply here.

The original list looks good enough, and keeping 2 liches gives you access to another (better) lore to nekekara.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
He's in a 800pt fight on a small table. Scorps are pretty awesome. 2 scorpions is like 20% of his Specials which really cuts into his Tomb Guard which are the main unit.

Scorpions are a 1 unit max. So you can't have 2. And that limits their uses in a lot of ways, particularly the unit-based spells of TK.

Entombed is fine, but on such a small map it's easier to shoot off to somewhere you didn't intend--like back at your normal deployment area... But it's entirely optional.

4 snakes is a quarter of his entire army and a complete redesign. He is going drop his entire TG unit to pay for that. TG can probably cream most stuff at cost, with TK spells, at this point level. They're cheap, got decent Strength, T, and you can give them 5+ KB.

I don't think you are looking at what the OP stated his game was. I mean, you can give him a great Ogre army too to field, but that doesn't apply here.

At 800 points he's running a single level 2, so buffs aren't really something one can count on. Scorpions do well without magic support so that makes them good at 800 points. Yes it eats into special, but as I said I think that Tomb Guard are a lost cause at 800 points. They can't hit anything without character or magic support, and you'll struggle to fit that in 800 points. WS3 is crap.

Presumably the OP is working towards a higher points game, where he can take BOTH snakes and tomb guard. So it's really not the end of the world to do a redesign at this point to switch out a unit you're just going to include later. Snakes also work much better without magic support, or in smaller numbers. 4 snakes works very well in small games (though I think 5-6 is better for larger games).

edit: Oh, and for your last bit the OP clearly stated that he was proxying his last game and hasn't gone through with buying the tomb guard yet. So it's not like he's leaving money on the table if he buys some snakes instead. I think they're a better first-purchase anyways. Painting a unit of tomb guard will crush your soul, while snakes are rather fun.

They can't hit anything without character or magic support, and you'll struggle to fit that in 800 points. WS3 is crap.

Okay, that's as far as I read because that's a meaningless statement.

Ogres are WS3. 90% of all of WHFB is WS3. Unless he is fighting WS7, it is completely irrelevant. The most elite Special HE swordmasters are exactly the same as fighting a Core Empire swordsman wielding a stick. It's just not an attribute worth mention and it is of no mathematical significance. Really. It isn't.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

They can't hit anything without character or magic support, and you'll struggle to fit that in 800 points. WS3 is crap.

Okay, that's as far as I read because that's a meaningless statement.

Ogres are WS3. 90% of all of WHFB is WS3. Unless he is fighting WS7, it is completely irrelevant. The most elite Special HE swordmasters are exactly the same as fighting a Core Empire swordsman wielding a stick. It's just not an attribute worth mention and it is of no mathematical significance. Really. It isn't.

Exactly. 90% of WHFB is WS3, meaning that my 13ppm halberdguard hit them on 4+, and they get hit back on a 4+ or even 3+. Compare that to DE Execs, which for 1 point cheaper have +1M, +2WS, +1S, +2I, +1LD, and reroll 1's to wound. They're comparable units, but the Execs hit before most things while the TG hit after. Execs will generally hit on 3+ and hit first, and basically wound automatically (S6 vs T4 or less, rerolling 1s). So TG hit less, wound less, and strike later. They also get hit by most elite units on 3+, whereas the Execs get hit on 4+ (T4 6+ vs T3 5+ will depend on the enemy, but I concede that TG are generally a little bit heartier).

What do they get in exchange? They synergize better with magic for one (light magic helps them hit more, get hit less, and hit before they lose models). Nehek lore helps them get bodies back. Both give additional attacks.

But you're not getting any of that out of a unit of 20 with just a level 2 support. You get that from a unit of 30 with a level 4, or better two level 4s, supporting. You'll also probably want at least a tomb prince in there to give WS5.

None of that you're going to fit into 800 points, which is why I suggest that Snakes are a better option. 4 models with a banner is just fine for them. It's also more dynamic than the M4 tomb guard block. That or focus on core with something like chariots, but I'm hot and cold on them.

I'd probably drop the level 1 for a necotrect, guarenteed hatred is better than maybe getting speed of light or light of battle on the lore of life, but that's just my opinion.

I am normally dead against Tomb Guard at this points level, but recently a friend used my Tomb Kings against my new army (Asur). He took a unit of 20 Tomb Guard with the newbiebanner. He tabled me.

Bit embarrassing, that. Is it wrong that I do worse with my new High Elves than I do with my Tomb Kings?

Anyway, the Tomb Guard are indeed a bit crap against other elites without characters. However, it is worth mentioning that the characters are liable to be killed out. And the Execs, while faster and better, also die like champions to the archery that the OP has brought. I don't think that 25 Tomb Guard will set the world alight. They are, however, a pretty solid brick at this points level, they are mostly immune to crumbling so he doesn't have to worry about that, and they are a great candidate for future expansion.

Would I take Necropolis Knights? Yeah, probably. The models look nice (always an important consideration) and they have better movement allied with comparable damage output and better armour. But the Tomb Guard are probably at worst semi-decent, and arguably an easier one to use (lacking the strong matchuphammer nature of the Snakes).

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Compare that to DE Execs

And I stopped there, because that's not how the game works. Skaven slaves beat every unit in the game on cost. Beat DE Execs. There is no reason to ever get anything in the game except skaven slaves. But what's this you say? There are other things besides units blundering up to each other and seeing what point value is the best over infinite turns? Crazy talk!

What matters is point value within the book and what you can do with them. TK are not DE, which may be surprising. TK uses units from the TK book, not the DE book. You can be aware of other units in case you fight them a lot, but he never mentioned DE or executioners or anything. So that's completely irrelevant. If every single opponent he faces runs metal mages, using high armor snakes isn't so hot, but we don't know that. He said he fought empire and tabled them with TG and you wisely come back and say they suck and he should dump them...

 Krellnus wrote:
I'd probably drop the level 1 for a necotrect, guarenteed hatred is better than maybe getting speed of light or light of battle on the lore of life, but that's just my opinion.

Naked 'tects are squishy as feth, and any decent opponent is going to kill them out before the unit strikes because TG are only I3, and a looooot of the things you'll be throwing your TG against will have at least one thing in them that strikes before that. The key to the Lore of Light spells isn't that they help you hit, but that they help you hit FIRST. 30 tomb guard striking at I10 will butcher pretty much anything, while 14 tomb guard striking back will have a tough time making up for their 16 fallen brethren. That said I am a HUGE fan of Ramhotep, but only because of the benefit he gives to a unit of snakes. 3+ rerollable armour saves are hard as coffin nails.


@CharlesRampant: I totally agree with everything you just said. Thing is, the OP said he hasn't actually BOUGHT any Tomb Guard yet...so there's a pretty strong argument there for buying snakes instead. If he's already bought them then that's a different story, but given a choice I'd say that Snakes are the better choice.

And as for matchuphammer...well...you're going to have to learn how important that is as a TK player at SOME point

How about this?

Liche Priest - level 2

Skeleton Archers - 20
Skeleton Chariots - 3

Tomb Guard - 25

Casket of Souls

No command models, but lotsa dudes. Also has the chariots for a bit of punch, and a respectable 26 archer shots and the casket for ranged damage.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
How about this?

Liche Priest - level 2

Skeleton Archers - 20
Skeleton Chariots - 3

Tomb Guard - 25

Casket of Souls

No command models, but lotsa dudes. Also has the chariots for a bit of punch, and a respectable 26 archer shots and the casket for ranged damage.

Exact list I was gonna' post thanks man.

The only thing that I'll caution is that, at larger points, there's a very strong argument in favour of halberdguard over HW/Sguard. S5+Razor Standard causes -3 to enemy armour saves, and is our best line of defense against highly armoured foes like knights, demon princes, and monstrous cav, etc.

So if you do make those TG for this level, consider giving them halberds and/or magnetizing (though personally I think the halberds look better anyways).