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In the game rules and in the fluff?

I forget the name of the other tau flier with the two huge railguns they use at Taros to knock out a warhound (tigerhsark?). But could I ask also if in the game rules and in the fluff they could manage this?

But yeah, would their railgun cannons be strong enough to do it? In the rules and in the background?

Personally I would assume yes because a warhound titan should be a lot tougher than a knight.

A manta is a huge troop transport, something like 100 times the size of a knight (in fluff. The model is only something like 10 times), and bristling with guns.
Yeah, I think a manta can kill a knight



Now a Tigershark is a small to medium sized fighter, slightly larger than a Valkyrie, iirc. It comes with a pair of big assed rail guns, and it's primary function is killing SHVs.
That can also kill a knight.

A Manta will destroy a Knight, your wallet and your marriage with equal ease.

yes it could, but it might not...............

Void and Ion Shields work differently - a skilled Knight Pilot aware of the danger might be able to deflect the railgun rounds where a void shield could be overwhelmed. A really over the top writter will probably have them deflected into other tau

The previous Taus Codexes (I don't have the current ones) talked about Mantas being able to counter Titans - no description of class or if any where lost.

Mantas have been shot down by Guard AA tanks and driven off by Astartes Speeders and so the Manta could concievably be taken out by the Knight - it all depends on the writter and the situation.

Mantas are powerful but extremely valuable war machines - the Tau are loath to loose them - bit like the AM and the devestating loss of a Titan..............

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
A Manta will destroy a Knight, your wallet and your marriage with equal ease.

And your table, your life and your sanity as well.

The Tiger Shark AX-1-0 was espesially developed to kill Imperial Titans. First test was the battle on Taros (see IA3) where these flyers killed 1-2 Warhound Titans leading to the withdrawal of all Titans from Taros.
It is a safe guess that these could also kill the smaller Knights.

Sort of - downed one Scout Titan and caused the other three Scout Titans to be pulled back by the Mechanicus (unless 2nd ed changed it) as the Tau had control of the air - as they did througout the campaign

In the rules both have heavy railguns, strengthD weapons, I'm not sure if the Knight Ion Shield is able to work against D weapons...

What about the actual game rules?

Wouldit be very likely that either one of those could destroy a Knight titan. If you had to do a % of it?

I mean how resistant are Knights to basic railguns from hammerheads?

If the flyer has heavy railguns which seem to be a D weapon, then yes they would have no problem killing a knight, if its just a reg str 10 rail gun, then yes possible but a challenge given the void shield and hps

 agnosto wrote:
In the rules both have heavy railguns, strengthD weapons, I'm not sure if the Knight Ion Shield is able to work against D weapons...

Its just a 4+ Invuln so zero defense against D weapons - the Old Heavy Railgun was S10 Ordinace,Titan Killer - can't recall what that rull did.

Titian killer was just the other name for S D.

A manta could easily destroy a titan both in game and in fluff. in game that would be 2X110" S D and 9X90" TL S7

Strength D does a number on Knights. And the Knights can only reply with heavy stubbers as none if their other weapons are even allowed to hit Flyers.

Something else to keep in mind is that in fluff and BFG Manta are used in space as heavy fighter/bombers.

Jefffar wrote:
Strength D does a number on Knights. And the Knights can only reply with heavy stubbers as none if their other weapons are even allowed to hit Flyers.

on the flyer topic I wonder if FW is going to put out bits / rules for an anti air variant. Maybe a mobile AA missile launcher type. The only real knock I have on the knights, is the lack of weapon options right now. Hopefully FW bridges some gaps and puts out new weapons

Jefffar wrote:
Strength D does a number on Knights. And the Knights can only reply with heavy stubbers as none if their other weapons are even allowed to hit Flyers.

Mantas are hit like normal vehicles due to their immense size IIRC.

 agnosto wrote:
Something else to keep in mind is that in fluff and BFG Manta are used in space as heavy fighter/bombers.

Huh really? I thought they were primarily transports, not combat ships. Then again, I'm not that familiar with BFG Tau.
Still, it does give you an idea of the scale - Mantas are huge in Wh40k, and in BFG they are just fighter craft.

That's a giant tau super hevey support unit, from what posted it could even stand off and hit it out of knights range I think anyway with main weapons battery's.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Strength D does a number on Knights. And the Knights can only reply with heavy stubbers as none if their other weapons are even allowed to hit Flyers.

Mantas are hit like normal vehicles due to their immense size IIRC.

As many SP as it has, you'd have to shoot your entire army at it to do anything. More likely, it flies onto the board, drops it's payload of 3000 pts of suits, tanks and troops then hits you with massive fire.
It's 13/12/11 with 10 SP and an energy shield (4+ against any hit).

Firepower:
2 Heavy Railguns: Strength D, Ordnance 1, Destroyer but may also fire submunitions at strength 7, AP3 Ordnance 1, 10" blast. 110" range
3 TL Long-Barreled Ion Cannons: Strength 7 AP3, Assault 3. 90" range
One TL Missile Pod: usual one. 36" range
16 long-barreled burst cannons: S5 AP5, Heavy 6. 36" range
10 seeker missiles S8 AP3 72" range
and a networked markerlight.

It has two transport bays:
The upper deck carries infantry (including drones and jet-pack infantry) with space for 55 models.
The lower deck can carry 145 models including suits) and 4 vehicles (non-superheavy, non-flyer). To add on to this, transport vehicles like devilfish may carry their troops without counting towards the model count max. The lower deck can drop everything in one turn while the upper deck can drop 4 units per turn.

So then whatever the manta drops shoots you after it unloads on your army.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Strength D does a number on Knights. And the Knights can only reply with heavy stubbers as none if their other weapons are even allowed to hit Flyers.

Mantas are hit like normal vehicles due to their immense size IIRC.

They are hit on regular BS but they are still immune to blast.

 agnosto wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Strength D does a number on Knights. And the Knights can only reply with heavy stubbers as none if their other weapons are even allowed to hit Flyers.

Mantas are hit like normal vehicles due to their immense size IIRC.

As many SP as it has, you'd have to shoot your entire army at it to do anything. More likely, it flies onto the board, drops it's payload of 3000 pts of suits, tanks and troops then hits you with massive fire.
It's 13/12/11 with 10 SP and an energy shield (4+ against any hit).

Firepower:
2 Heavy Railguns: Strength D, Ordnance 1, Destroyer but may also fire submunitions at strength 7, AP3 Ordnance 1, 10" blast. 110" range
3 TL Long-Barreled Ion Cannons: Strength 7 AP3, Assault 3. 90" range
One TL Missile Pod: usual one. 36" range
16 long-barreled burst cannons: S5 AP5, Heavy 6. 36" range
10 seeker missiles S8 AP3 72" range
and a networked markerlight.

It has two transport bays:
The upper deck carries infantry (including drones and jet-pack infantry) with space for 55 models.
The lower deck can carry 145 models including suits) and 4 vehicles (non-superheavy, non-flyer). To add on to this, transport vehicles like devilfish may carry their troops without counting towards the model count max. The lower deck can drop everything in one turn while the upper deck can drop 4 units per turn.

So then whatever the manta drops shoots you after it unloads on your army.

so the manta can put out a little bit of dakka?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Something else to keep in mind is that in fluff and BFG Manta are used in space as heavy fighter/bombers.

Huh really? I thought they were primarily transports, not combat ships. Then again, I'm not that familiar with BFG Tau.
Still, it does give you an idea of the scale - Mantas are huge in Wh40k, and in BFG they are just fighter craft.

They're different in BFG, modified as heavy bombers (actually missile destroyers).

 agnosto wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Something else to keep in mind is that in fluff and BFG Manta are used in space as heavy fighter/bombers.

Huh really? I thought they were primarily transports, not combat ships. Then again, I'm not that familiar with BFG Tau.
Still, it does give you an idea of the scale - Mantas are huge in Wh40k, and in BFG they are just fighter craft.

They're different in BFG, modified as heavy bombers (actually missile destroyers).

Ah, so they sacrifice transport capacity for bombs? That makes sense then.

Heh, imagine a Manta-Bomber in Wh40k. That would wreck everything.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Something else to keep in mind is that in fluff and BFG Manta are used in space as heavy fighter/bombers.

Huh really? I thought they were primarily transports, not combat ships. Then again, I'm not that familiar with BFG Tau.
Still, it does give you an idea of the scale - Mantas are huge in Wh40k, and in BFG they are just fighter craft.

They're different in BFG, modified as heavy bombers (actually missile destroyers).

Ah, so they sacrifice transport capacity for bombs? That makes sense then.

Heh, imagine a Manta-Bomber in Wh40k. That would wreck everything.

Time to make some proposed rules...

Shame this hasn't been more reflected in the recent lore. The stuff in the Damocles book mentions the tau having lots of mantas and tiger sharks; as well as really failing to counter the power of the knight titans. But it never occurs to them to employ these aircraft or their deployment makes little difference...

Its a bit like saying the knight titans can beat tyranid bio titans.

Yeah. Kind of amazing that ships designed to counter spaceships measured in kilometers are somehow incapable of destroying something smaller than a wraithknight. It's all about the narrative....and forgery... Or was that forging. lol. Easy to say that the war in the skies was a stalemate or other plot handwaving.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Shame this hasn't been more reflected in the recent lore. The stuff in the Damocles book mentions the tau having lots of mantas and tiger sharks; as well as really failing to counter the power of the knight titans. But it never occurs to them to employ these aircraft or their deployment makes little difference...

Its a bit like saying the knight titans can beat tyranid bio titans.

it's entirely possiable that the aircraft where busy with other targets, (perhaps actual titans? or fixed defences?)

it's also possiable that the Knights kept to terrain where targeting them was difficult.

it's also possiable that the Imperium had lots of anti-air.

and for the record, in the right situation an IK COULD beat a Hierophant biotitan. it'd be rough going and no garentee (and quite frankly my money's on the bio-titan) but IF the IK got into close combat with the Bio titan it might, depending on dice luck, be able to bring it down

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Something else to keep in mind is that in fluff and BFG Manta are used in space as heavy fighter/bombers.

Ah, so they sacrifice transport capacity for bombs? That makes sense then.

Heh, imagine a Manta-Bomber in Wh40k. That would wreck everything.

Time to make some proposed rules...

I'm afraid that you'll just have to make it up from scratch. BFG rules are different and the Manta profile just provides a movement and how they avoid being destroyed if caught by fighters. The rules are free on the GW website, just search for BFG Tau rules.

I'd probably call it a D strength apocalypse blast or something. You can look online and see how some people made Mantas out of foam or other materials; I think there are templates out there somewhere.

In Epic 40K (more accurately Epic Armageddon) both the Manta and squadrons of Tigershark AX-1-0's are deployed to wipe out enemy titans - both are quite damn good at it, too.

Mantas are quite a bit more expensive than AX-1-0 squadrons, but then again they have much more firepower output overall. I would prefer Tigersharks, but it's hard to refuse a Manta when while they are easier to damage, they can still take as many raw "wounds" as a Warlord titan before being destroyed. Plus it's easily just as funny to see a Manta model in Epic as in 40K, just for the sheer real estate they cover when deployed- they cover more area than a Warlord Titan model+base.

So in effect, yes a manta can destroy a Knight titan. The ease just varies depending on the rule set. In Epic a single Knight would barely make a Tau player sneeze if they had a Manta to send after it.