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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 13:20:37
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Grey Knight Psionic Stormraven Pilot
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I like the Imperial Knights. The idea of a whole army of gigantic robots just sort of resonates with me (fantasies of crushing my enemies beneath my feet may, or may not be the reason), but I have my reservations about actually playing them.
As far as I imagine it, a match against Knights can go two ways:
1. Your enemy didn't know you'd bring knights, and after your stomped his Anti-tank units, you'll continue to rampage through his army and he pretty much can only wait for the game to end.
2. Your enemy knew you'd bring knights and they dissolve under the massive amount of anti tank fire.
(2b. Your enemy knew you'd bring knights but his army hasn't really got a way to deal with them properly *cough*orks*cough*. Refer to 1.)
Both variants don't really seem like the definition of a fun match for me.
Has anyone played a match with knights allready? What was your experience?
Could you imagine rulechanges which would make it more interesting to fight against Knights (I could imagine a change to the walker CC rules could work, giving enemies a chance to hit the side or back AV).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 13:41:22
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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I played against Imperial Knights last night. It was not fun in the least for me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 13:45:52
Subject: Re:Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It would probably be more fun than playing against Riptides, Wraithknights and rerollable 2+ saves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 13:47:56
Subject: Re:Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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tyrannosaurus wrote:It would probably be more fun than playing against Riptides, Wraithknights and rerollable 2+ saves.
So it's more fun than something that's totally not fun? ok. lol.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 13:54:45
Subject: Re:Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Executing Exarch
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Its the age old problem with super heavies, you either have to tools to deal with it easily and your opponent is going to have a bad game, or you don't have the tools to deal with it and it walks over you and you have a bad game.
Knights however are fairly squishy, just have lots of hull points, I've played against 1 and I had to dedicate my entire army at it to prevent it from getting into assault where it does real damage. If my opponent had 2 I wouldn't have been able to stop them. 3 and it would have been an easy win. 4 or 5 and it would have been a struggle for survival.
Automatically Appended Next Post: tyrannosaurus wrote:It would probably be more fun than playing against Riptides, Wraithknights and rerollable 2+ saves.
Outside of tournaments I highly doubt anyone runs into problems with these on a regular basis, and even in tournaments there is only a handful of people using them. Besides that in the end its conduct of the player not the army.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 13:56:38
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:05:03
Subject: Re:Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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My point was that I fail to see why Imperial Knights are receiving so much hate when some existing units seem to be relatively much more powerful than most others. Many seem to think it acceptable to refuse to play against a Knight Titan despite it being a legal unit choice for a regular 40k game. If that's the case then the same should be true for the more powerful options from the Eldar, Tau and Daemons codexes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:05:28
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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I don't think it's the same issue with the Riptides and Wraithknights.
What bothers me about IK is how they make all S6 and lower weaponry in your army completely useless. You're running an army that makes all standard weapons worthless and it's doubtful if they will fire a single shot all game.
I've still never heard an answer to the vehicle facing issue. The way the body is made it looks like the sides are actually incredibly small, meaning you'll be hitting front armor most the time and with a 4++ from that direction. Which would be 72 S7 shots to take down one.
I don't honestly understand the approach of "Just let your opponent know what you're bringing."
"You're bringing IK. Okay, I'll list tailor to beat that."
"Oh, you're list tailoring to beat IK, I'll bring an infantry heavy army instead.
"Oh, you're bringing infantry heavy? I'll bring IK instead."
The approach of letting your opponent know just switches the roles. Instead of the guy facing IK being unprepared, now it'll be the IK being unprepared for an army list that isn't TAC.
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I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:24:22
Subject: Re:Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Ravenous D wrote:I've played against 1 and I had to dedicate my entire army at it to prevent it from getting into assault where it does real damage. If my opponent had 2 I wouldn't have been able to stop them. 3 and it would have been an easy win. 4 or 5 and it would have been a struggle for survival.
I played against 3. There was no real point in even playing the game (at least with a 2 foot separation between deployment zones).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:26:40
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Savageconvoy wrote:I don't think it's the same issue with the Riptides and Wraithknights.
What bothers me about IK is how they make all S6 and lower weaponry in your army completely useless. You're running an army that makes all standard weapons worthless and it's doubtful if they will fire a single shot all game.
Yeah, I've never said I don't like IK armies because they're overpowered, just that they're unbalanced and render everything that's not a high strength weapon useless. You bought flamers for some of your squads? Useless. Got a sniper squad? Useless. Bought power weapons and power axes? Useless.
The Riptide and Wraithknight armies, for one, will have other models in the army. They aren't scoring and will need some sort of infantry to go along with them and since they aren't troops, you can't make an army of purely Riptides and Wraithknights. Also, you CAN hurt a RT with S3 and a Wraithknight with S5 (vs the IK of S7 front and S6 rear).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:31:29
Subject: Re:Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Executing Exarch
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tyrannosaurus wrote:My point was that I fail to see why Imperial Knights are receiving so much hate when some existing units seem to be relatively much more powerful than most others. Many seem to think it acceptable to refuse to play against a Knight Titan despite it being a legal unit choice for a regular 40k game. If that's the case then the same should be true for the more powerful options from the Eldar, Tau and Daemons codexes.
It is true though, in regular games you can refuse stuff. Not many people are willing to go against jet, cent, ovesa, or whatever star armies in a normal atmosphere, they feel it to be too much. Ive challenged someone to a game and said "nah you have 4 wave serpents". In a tournament though you have no choice, that's the organizers decision to let that stuff in, so you can accept the terms and build to expect it, or just not go as its probably just going to be a piss off.
I myself am a competitive gamer, so when I go to tournaments I build lists in mind to deal with serpent spam, riptides, wraithknights and jetstars, the game is so rock paper scissor that you pretty much have to concede that your army is going to suck against something, all comers lists are actively punished in this edition because of units that sit on the extremes of the rules.
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Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:34:38
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Depends. If you have the means to take it down, then yes. Otherwise, eventually not.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:41:09
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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We had a local tournament recently where someone was given the okay to bring the IG armored company. That was the worst game I've played in a while.
"Oh, so you have a majority of AV14 vehicles, a few chimera chasis and artillery hiding out of LOS. That's okay, I think my suits and Riptides should be fine for Anti-tank. Oh. Beast Hunter shells and battle cannons on everything. Nevermind. Nice trying to have a game."
The justification for that being okay was because the TO knew someone was bringing 6 vendettas and that would be a good counter to an all tank army. I'm starting to see it where people are look at something and if there is a hard counter available they give it the "balanced" stamp.
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I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 14:58:29
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Savageconvoy wrote:We had a local tournament recently where someone was given the okay to bring the IG armored company. That was the worst game I've played in a while.
"Oh, so you have a majority of AV14 vehicles, a few chimera chasis and artillery hiding out of LOS. That's okay, I think my suits and Riptides should be fine for Anti-tank. Oh. Beast Hunter shells and battle cannons on everything. Nevermind. Nice trying to have a game."
The justification for that being okay was because the TO knew someone was bringing 6 vendettas and that would be a good counter to an all tank army. I'm starting to see it where people are look at something and if there is a hard counter available they give it the "balanced" stamp.
We allow the Armoured Company in our local tournaments. Once I battled such an army with my Eldar. As soon as my Seer Council was among the tanks, it made a mess out of them.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 15:45:39
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Given the ABG is all tanks rather than walkers, I think it's much easier for most TAC armies to deal with. That sweet juicy rear armour is much easier to target than a walker's rear armour. Though with Beast Hunter shells it would really put a dent in any MC's.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 16:06:31
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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I guess it was more terrain set up than anything else that ruined that game. He was basically able to line up his tanks between buildings along the his corner, making deep striking behind him almost impossible. Beast Hunter and Battle cannons just killed anything I had that could deal with High armor within two turns.
Which is probably my biggest complaint. Lets say I was able to bring an all FMC and flyer list and they're all somehow scoring now too. It's easy to figure out what I'm going to target first, which is to take down all the AA weapons since they are few in number and little of the rest will be able to do much else. Reducing the majority of your troops to "hide on an objective, don't bother trying to shoot anything" really kills it for me.
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I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 16:43:55
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It can be lots of fun. Depends on what kind of player are you.
If I was fielding 3 or 5 Knights, and I was kicking arse, I would be giving my opponent like 5+++ saves. The rules say no saves of any kind but the +++ saves can be allowed. It's a made up save. If they fail their save, they get to come back next turn or in Reserves.
If you don't want to give them Reserves, then give them a 3+++ or a 4+++ save if the 3+++ is to strong.
You are only playing for fun, so change the rules to make the game fun. Otherwise you are just TFG.
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Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 16:51:39
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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What does it make GW if their rules are inherently unfun to play by making a situation where you need to give out free super invuls or unlimited reserves?
TFGW?
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I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 16:58:38
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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Davor wrote:You are only playing for fun, so change the rules to make the game fun. Otherwise you are just TFG.
Playing by the rules now makes you " TFG"? It seems very hard to play a game of 40k without being TFG anymore. If you play a certain army, you are TFG, if you don't play a certain army you are TFG, if you like to win you are TFG, if you don't care about winning and don't play competitive lists you are TFG, if you play by the rules you are TFG, if you want to make up your own rules you are TFG, if you want to play a FW army you are TFG, if you don't want to play against a FW army you are TFG. I think it's all getting a little bit silly now, lol.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 16:59:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 17:15:46
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Fixture of Dakka
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:Davor wrote:You are only playing for fun, so change the rules to make the game fun. Otherwise you are just TFG.
Playing by the rules now makes you " TFG"?
It seems very hard to play a game of 40k without being TFG anymore. If you play a certain army, you are TFG, if you don't play a certain army you are TFG, if you like to win you are TFG, if you don't care about winning and don't play competitive lists you are TFG, if you play by the rules you are TFG, if you want to make up your own rules you are TFG, if you want to play a FW army you are TFG, if you don't want to play against a FW army you are TFG.
I think it's all getting a little bit silly now, lol.
By that, I mean, the OP wants to play for fun. A lot of people will know ahead of time, going up against a certain army, in this case 3 Knights, will not be fun. They will not care if they loose, but just taking minis off the table while not doing much damage in return is not fun. The reason I said you be TFG, is because he want to have fun. So why not change the rules, because we all know 40K is not a well written balanced rule set, and some armies are more powerful than other armies. So not changing the rules, but also claiming you want to have fun is IMHO TGF.
Nothing wrong with wanting to win. That is why we mostly play. Nothing wrong with picking any army you want. Thing to me is, claim one thing then do something else, is just hypocritical. That is what I should have said, would have saved me a lot of typing.
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Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 17:30:01
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Regular Dakkanaut
New Jersey
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I killed five IK in four turns with a non competitive take on all comers list... Only one guy has them at my local game store, and he lost every game he played in last Sunday's tournament. He got rolled by Eldar, Daemons, and my fluffy Tau. We played a few games after the tournament for fun using the same lists and he lost to Nob bikers and Dark Eldar as well... Don't get the collective freak out.
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Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 17:33:37
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Wing Commander
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I want to fight imperial knights with my black knight spam list. When it's night fight.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army  so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 17:46:33
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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im about 20 games (combined with and against the knights) I really enjoy playing with them as well as against them
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DT:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k00+D++A(WTF)/areWD100R+++++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 18:31:37
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Deacon
Eugene, OR
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As a working professional, anytime I can get a game in is good fun time. I really don't care what you're bringing, as I'll play you anyways.
I always show up with 2 armies and several lists, and I'll keep playing, it doesn't matter if I'm getting blasted into paste or wiping the board with my opponent.
The bottom line is figure out what kind of player you are.
If you don't think something is fun, you shouldn't be doing it.
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2k
3300
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 18:50:00
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Its a giant walker. Poor players will struggle, players that actually like 40k and strategy will enjoy games against them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 19:09:27
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf
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sfshilo wrote:Its a giant walker. Poor players will struggle, players that actually like 40k and strategy and don't play 'nids will enjoy games against them.
Fixed that for you
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 19:16:21
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Regular Dakkanaut
New Jersey
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Do nids not have flying monstrous creatures that can take them out? Or a high initiative, high strength creature that could beat them in melee? I am asking because I genuinely do not know. I know very little about the new nid book.
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Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 19:53:21
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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I don't have a problem against knights as a Lord of war, simply like escalation, but once you're facing 4-6 of them I feel like the mandatory troop selections are rendered moot. You're AT guys will just get focused down and killed, leaving the rest of your army open to just die. Fliers will work well against them, since they will have a hard time fighting them, but thats pretty limited.
A local player doesn't get why I won't play against it, not because I believe it's not a legal army or anything, just because I don't think I will have fun.
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10k+ Tau, Ke'lshan
10k Dark Eldar Kabal of the Flayed skull
1k Scions
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 20:14:54
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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sfshilo wrote:Its a giant walker. Poor players will struggle, players that actually like 40k and strategy will enjoy games against them.
I like how you imply that being poor and enjoying strategy are mutually exclusive.
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I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 20:24:16
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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BrotherHaraldus wrote: sfshilo wrote:Its a giant walker. Poor players will struggle, players that actually like 40k and strategy will enjoy games against them. I like how you imply that being poor and enjoying strategy are mutually exclusive.
I think he means bad players, not players who don't have a lot of money. Could be wrong though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 20:24:38
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/23 20:31:25
Subject: Is it fun playing against an imperial Knight army?
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
The darkness between the stars
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Honestly it depends. Do I have a list that has counters to it so the game is even? Alright then let us do this. The big problem with it is that it is polarizing. It's kind of like Raider spam (except more effective) and Armoured Battlegroup (arguably more effective) not to mention air spam (which depending on the army is very effective). Basically, rock paper scissors in action. The biggest problem, and one that shares with basically all of the above, is they are all heavily rock paper scissors which invalidate most of the armaments that your army has. Along with that, not every army has an answer to every single thing. In the end, it is still an army of superheavies. If you informed my IG army or CSm army before playing so that I could actually bring some weapons to possibly kill you, I'd be up for it. If not, well there's not much use in a game where I have no chance of winning. My daemon army? Honestly I can't really think of any way to fight a Knight army. Doesn't help I don't care for nurgle at all, I don't want to go flying circus spam, and I don't want to bring a screamerstar. The problem lies in the fact that the only answers I have that I can think of are a flying slaanesh prince that gets biomancy and whips him at his weak points (requiring a decent amount of luck to get everything), suicide deepstriking pink horrors and hoping the random roll is decent, they don't scatter horridly, etc, or bringing hordes of screamers and trying to drown the foe with them hoping against all odds that I might armourbane them to death.
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2375
/ 1690
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150) |
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