Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm a huge fan of the Swarmlord. However with the change to Tyranid psychic powers his survivability has gone down, not to mention the fact that his weapons were nerfed and he was already a high costed melee unit in a shooty edition. The only reasonable way to bring him to the table these days is to bring him with some tyrant guard knowing that you are mainly taking him for utility and fluff purposes and he will most likely never make it into combat.

So has anyone else wanted a flying version of him. I think it might be a nice option to put points into a set of wings vs the tyrant guard. Obviously, he wouldn't be as durable as he would be if you spent the points on the guard but he would be more likely make it into cc returning some of those points back in return. I know he won't be as competitive as the standard TL flyrant but the option would be nice.

Just fishing for opinions here. What would you cost him at with wings

 Rotary wrote:
I'm a huge fan of the Swarmlord. However with the change to Tyranid psychic powers his survivability has gone down, not to mention the fact that his weapons were nerfed and he was already a high costed melee unit in a shooty edition. The only reasonable way to bring him to the table these days is to bring him with some tyrant guard knowing that you are mainly taking him for utility and fluff purposes and he will most likely never make it into combat.

So has anyone else wanted a flying version of him. I think it might be a nice option to put points into a set of wings vs the tyrant guard. Obviously, he wouldn't be as durable as he would be if you spent the points on the guard but he would be more likely make it into cc returning some of those points back in return. I know he won't be as competitive as the standard TL flyrant but the option would be nice.

Just fishing for opinions here. What would you cost him at with wings

Frankly, buying him the wing option would be enough. Compare him to the other big nasty FMCs and he still isn't broken. Over 300 and no invuln? He could have a CC D weapon and not be broken.

I too wish he could buy wings... and have access to Biomancy... and keep his forced invul re-rolls.... and even if he had all these things I feel he would still be over costed.

Poor Swarmy.

I'm not sure Wings are the answer - they replace a pair of limbs anyway ruining his General Grievous aesthetic.

There are plenty of simple options to make him viable, it's just a pity GW didn't use any of them:

Alien Cunning - If he's a strategic genius, why must he add +1 to reserve rolls? Why can't he choose to do so, or choose to re-roll them?
Adrenal Glands - A melee unit without Fleet is like a missile launcher with no krak missiles.
Eternal Warrior - He's the uber named character in the Tyranid codex, even described as 'deathless'. Why doesn't he get this?
A proper invuln - How come an incredibly powerful psyker with aeons of knowledge can't use that to protect himself? Give him a 4++ Warp Field instead of that parry nonsense.
Better stats - A unit that "is to a Hive Tyrant as a Hive Tyrant is to a Termagant"... how about S7 T7 then?

Fleet, lets give the guy a chance of getting somewhere.

4+ invul, He gets shot up before his parry save ever comes into play. This would give him some staying power.

Eternal warrior, The loss of acces to Iron arm somewhat lessend by this. Also very fluffy.

Force succesful inv sv to be rerolld. Its what made him stand up to the other big scary characters out there.

Synaptic lychpin also increases shadow in the warp range.

While wings do look incredibly badass on the Swarmlord (I've modeled some myself) I can't help but feel that they don't synergize particularly well with him. He doesn't have anything to shoot besides psychic powers and he could very well not roll any shooting abilities. In addition, the Tyranid choice of psychic powers is really small.

One table.

The Eldar get two tables (one of which effectively counts for two with the reversal thing going for it) and access to the BRB powers, Divinitation and Telepathy if I'm not mistaken (I think they might have Pyromancy but don't quote me on that).

Chaos Space Marines have three half tables and access to most of the BRB tables.

Daemons also get access to much of the BRB and three god specific tables.

The Imperial armies between themselves can access most of the BRB and some have their own special powers (GKs, BAs, and SWs).

The Orks are similarly screwed over, having technical access to BRB powers, but because Weirdboyz are ML 0 for some reason you can't trade any of it. I hear they'll get a table of gork and a table of mork come the new codex though, and quite likely a fix to their psykers.

The tyranids get one and only one table. It's not a bad table, but it's not as impressive as the Eldar's table and most of the BRB tables have much more spectacular powers (except Pyromancy, but Pyromancy is probably the most underwhelming table the BRB has to offer) and the lack of variety is a bit soul draining.

As for the Swarmlord, I have some potential fixes.

Firstly, two distinct psychic power tables for the Tyranids, one is mostly for support, while the other is much more direct.

So catalyst, onslaught, dominion, horrify, paroxysm, and such get placed into the support table, while Warp Lance, Life Leech, and Psychic Scream go to the offensive table. If the BRB powers are allowed, then some more redundant abilities may be altered.

For the buff table, we still have three more powers to fill out. So here's what I gave out.

Fury of the swarm: identical range to Catalyst, grants both the caster and the user rage, hatred.

Guidance of the many: Identical range to Catalyst, improves WS and BS of target unit and caster by 1.

Kinetic drain: Target moves as if it is in difficult terrain and loses one initiative and attack, may not overwatch or utilize counter-attack, fleet of foot, crusader, relentless, or hit and special rules (warp charge 2)

For the offensive table I came up with:

Chittering inferno: S4 AP 5 torrent, soul blaze

.Lobotomize: Designate an enemy model within 18' and make an opposed leadership check, if the enemy fails, it is removed from play with no saves allowed (FNP still applies but LOS does not), models with EW instead take 1d3+1 wounds.

Inside your soul: Here, the Hive mind is sent surging into the target unit, driving the victims to temporary madness as they are filled with the same instincts of the beasts of the hive mind, only magnified. Roll an opposed leadership test against the highest LD value in the targeted unit, if the target fails, the unit attacks itself as per feed. 24' range.

Flesh twist: S4 Poisoned (4+), Ap4 large blast.

Altered powers: Warp blast, blast becomes S6, Lance goes back to AP1.

The Swarmlord's current warlord trait is switched out, his 18'' synapse was something he had by default last time, it may as well be by default again. Switch it out for mind eater or heightened senses.

Rerolls to invulnerable saves make a return, and I feel that he wouldn't really be broken even with six attacks. This next change is mostly pointless, but feels right, that is he goes to WS10 since he is in fact, billions of years old and has been fighting during all that time.

A piece of wargear I feel should have been in is also added: Warp shield. Which grants a 5++ invulnerable save, being a weaker version of Warp Field utilized by Zoanthropes and Malanthropes.

His art frequently depicts him as emitting some form of gas from the blades in his back, perhaps defensive grenades would make sense then?

And also a goody from DoW II: Blade storm. The Swarmlord may choose to forego all normal attacks in favor of hitting all models in base contact once.

Speed synapse: All models within the Swarmlord's synapse range benefit from fleet of foot, hit and run, and crusader

And a bonus bit of wargear: Regeneration, and EW.


New price? 325-335 seems fair.

Blade Flurry? Nice idea. Maybe even make it a large blast on top of himself, he is so big and has so long reach so it would actually fit.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Blade Flurry? Nice idea. Maybe even make it a large blast on top of himself, he is so big and has so long reach so it would actually fit.

Hmm, yes that would also be nice.

You know, looking at the Swarmlord's tail, it seems like it really should be a prehensile pincer, which admittedly is kind of like putting squirrel guns on a tank, but if the objective is to make him fit the fluff better...

A spine bank would also be nice (GW seems to have this insane fetish for not giving assault units assault grenades).

Now as they are quite relevant to Swarmy, I also thought the Tyrant Guards could do with some more options.

Scything talons: Back to what they were in 5e.

Extra-rending claws: Rends on a 5+

Dual boneswords: Instant death on a 5+ to wound (+5 points relative to BS and LW)

Bonesword and lashwhip: As they are now

Dual lashwhips: 4+ initiative bonus.

Biomorphs:

Regeneration

Armored shell: +20 points

Extended carapace (+1 toughness): 10 points

Dopamine flooders: FNP 10 points

Adamantium tusks: Grants an extra attack on the charge +10 points

Hyper-dense musculature: +1 strength, +10 points

Redundant organs: +1 wound, +20 points.

Efficient neurons: +1 initiative, 10 points

Enhanced dexterity: +1 WS, 5 points

Explosive muscle action: +1 attack, 15 points

Adrenaline Glands/Toxin sacs: As before

Acid blood: +15 points

Spine banks: +10 points

Wings: Gains jump, not compatible with armored shell +20 points

Just lower his points value...lower it enough and he becomes an attractive option, even given his drawbacks.

 yakface wrote:

Just lower his points value...lower it enough and he becomes an attractive option, even given his drawbacks.

There is a point where one has to ask what's the point of a special character.

Getting to the point of offering nothing a generic character can't is one where you seriously need to ask why the SC needs to exist in the first place.

The Swarmlord is at a point where he offers virtually nothing the Tyranid army particularly values, isn't particularly good at what he specializes in compared to many of his equivalents, and isn't even priced at a range that would make him a viable cheap alternative to the Flyrants that seem to have become the only reasonable option.

The Tyranid Prime and Tervigon also got shafted pretty hard, the Parasite of Mortex no longer exists, and the loss of armored shell seems to be a peculiarly specific blow against walking Hive Tyrants.

And Old One Eye and Deathleaper remain shockingly mediocre.

It all seems to be a ploy to make everyone buy Flyrants if you ask me, though why the nerf on the Swarmlord when he too got his own (wonderfully and lovingly designed) model at the same time seems to be a mystery. Probably because most people are only going to get one swarmlord, while they'll usually get at least two flyrants.

I like your stuff above, dual boneswords seem a bit too good against MCs and Adamantium Tusks must be cheaper than Explosive Muscle Action, otherwise it's good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what, can we just have the old Swarmlord back, please?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I like your stuff above, dual boneswords seem a bit too good against MCs and Adamantium Tusks must be cheaper than Explosive Muscle Action, otherwise it's good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what, can we just have the old Swarmlord back, please?

But how else will you be made to buy winged hive tyrant models in large numbers?

I've also noticed the smoke type stuff coming out of his back. I always wondered if it is some type of support to stimulate other tyranids into action, maybe giving a furious charge to those in range, or increasing their movement speed.

I really like the 10 point option of fnp, it's kind of a must for an expensive unit like him with out a invul.

 Rotary wrote:
I've also noticed the smoke type stuff coming out of his back. I always wondered if it is some type of support to stimulate other tyranids into action, maybe giving a furious charge to those in range, or increasing their movement speed.

I really like the 10 point option of fnp, it's kind of a must for an expensive unit like him with out a invul.

That is just his body venting excess heat and Tyranid spores.

Make a custom character with 1 set of bone sabers and wings, tell them it uses swarmlord rules, but with wings.

Without overcomplicating it, I think it's an easy fix. Give him: a 4+ invul, S7, T7, W6, and give him back the rerolling enemy rerolls. I would probably raise his price by 20 points to get those and he would be golden.

Maybe let him give your army a boost to Tyrant guard as well to make foot Tyrants actually useful.

 herpguy wrote:
Maybe let him give your army a boost to Tyrant guard as well to make foot Tyrants actually useful.

And a 2+

 xttz wrote:
I'm not sure Wings are the answer - they replace a pair of limbs anyway ruining his General Grievous aesthetic.

Wings don't replace a set of arms in the rules. Didn't in 5th and don't in 6th. Just a badly designed model.

 herpguy wrote:
Without overcomplicating it, I think it's an easy fix. Give him: a 4+ invul, S7, T7, W6, and give him back the rerolling enemy rerolls. I would probably raise his price by 20 points to get those and he would be golden.

Maybe let him give your army a boost to Tyrant guard as well to make foot Tyrants actually useful.

Bumping up his S, T, and Ws by one each is also a good idea. All this on top of my add on should help make him a worthy CC SC for one of the most in your face armies in the game.

Old One Eye and Deathleaper could also do with some boosts because the Deathleaper is a character Assassin that can't take on any ICs worth a damn and Old One Eye remains a tragic waste of points and is now a tragic waste of an HQ slot that doesn't offer synapse on top of that.