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 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
is like saying that sisters of battle are female space marines.

You mean they're not? Well dang, there goes that army idea...

Well, they have a whole distinct background and history, I mean. So just throwing them into, say, codex: Imperial Guard by putting a unit called battle sisters would make a lot of people angry. If were just unique space marines because we have vows, their just unique space marines because they have acts of faith.





I still love the Sob, though.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Templars were pretty vanilla to start with, and even their codex was fairly vanilla at the time it came out.

Yeah, except for the parts that weren't, the parts that made the difference in playstyle.

There wasn't much, and save for Vows, the Holy Orb and the old Machine Spirit options, you still have everything else (namely Crusader Squads and DT Crusaders). Oh and your Chapter Master equiv got buffed, even if he's not called a Grand Marshall anymore.

Righteous Zeal and the Vows is what made the army work the way it did (or well, almost work in 5th). It's like removing Mob Rule from Orks or Synapse from Tyranids. One rule change that completely changes the dynamic of the army.

Let's run with the Sisters example. Let's assume that GW decided to remove Codex: Adepta Sororitas and instead tell people to use their Sisters of Battle as Henchmen in the newly expanded Inquisition Codex (a plausible albeit unlikely scenario IMO). They'd lose their Acts of Faith and would have to pay 14 PPM for much worse than Tactical Marine stats and no ATSKNF. Do you think this'd upset Sisters of Battle players?

In fact, it's the same thing that happened to people who played Inquisitorial Stormtroopers back in the old DH Codex. Sure, when CH vanished you could still play them as Henchmen in C:GK, but they were much worse and didn't play the same way anymore, especially with the loss of allies (which is set to finally be rectified with the release of Codex: Stormtroopers).

Further, I'd argue that the CM equivalent is a side-grade at best. We could take a Marshal with TH/SS and pseudo-EW for 195 points in the old Codex. 1 Wound less and only WS5, but quite a bit cheaper than the current equivalent, and with more attacks on the charge (or, in 5th, rerolls to hit all the time!).

Chaplains bit the dust completely compared to the old Codex, the Emperor's Champion is a silly joke, Grimaldus is possibly worse than before (which is quite a feat), and Helbrecht is still a beatstick Chapter Master with an S4 AP3 weapon.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
is like saying that sisters of battle are female space marines.

You mean they're not? Well dang, there goes that army idea...

Well, they have a whole distinct background and history, I mean. So just throwing them into, say, codex: Imperial Guard by putting a unit called battle sisters would make a lot of people angry. If were just unique space marines because we have vows, their just unique space marines because they have acts of faith.





I still love the Sob, though.

It was supposed to be a joke.

Personally, seeing as how Blood Angels and Dark Angels are more like Vanilla Marines they should have been rolled into the codex with them. For example:
Chapter Tactics Blood Angels: Models with this rule have the Red Rage special rule. Vehicles from this detachment have the Fast Vehicle Type. Blood Angels treat Assault Marines as Troops.
Done. Dark Angels would be somewhat similar as well.

Black Templars were (and Space Wolves are) unique enough to warrant their own codex as they don't even come close to following the Codex Astartes.

as for saying Bts are "Dead" I think it's worth remembering that the Black Templars are a second founding Chapter.
when you compare the BTs to ANY other second founding chapter they're getting a TON of attention. they apper in a good number of novels. have their own chapter tactics, have 3 ICs in the SM codex.

yeah they no longer have their own codex now, but they're still definatly not forgotten

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal and the Vows is what made the army work the way it did (or well, almost work in 5th). It's like removing Mob Rule from Orks or Synapse from Tyranids. One rule change that completely changes the dynamic of the army.

Vows were replaced Chapter Tactics, Righteous Zeal became Crusader. Yes it's different, but it's also a lot more balanced overall.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Let's run with the Sisters example. Let's assume that GW decided to remove Codex: Adepta Sororitas and instead tell people to use their Sisters of Battle as Henchmen in the newly expanded Inquisition Codex (a plausible albeit unlikely scenario IMO). They'd lose their Acts of Faith and would have to pay 14 PPM for much worse than Tactical Marine stats and no ATSKNF. Do you think this'd upset Sisters of Battle players?

You do know that Acts of Faith have already been toned down (twice in fact!), not unlike your Vows being toned down to chapter tactics.

Oh and your army has ATSKNF, one of the most unbalanced rules in the game, so your example hardly holds up as a comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for saying Bts are "Dead" I think it's worth remembering that the Black Templars are a second founding Chapter.
when you compare the BTs to ANY other second founding chapter they're getting a TON of attention. they apper in a good number of novels. have their own chapter tactics, have 3 ICs in the SM codex.

yeah they no longer have their own codex now, but they're still definatly not forgotten

But they're not special enough! </sarcasm>

Seriously though, everytime a Black Templar player starts to complain about how bad they have it I want to chuck an Exorcist at them.

BrianDavion wrote:as for saying Bts are "Dead" I think it's worth remembering that the Black Templars are a second founding Chapter.
when you compare the BTs to ANY other second founding chapter they're getting a TON of attention. they apper in a good number of novels. have their own chapter tactics, have 3 ICs in the SM codex.

yeah they no longer have their own codex now, but they're still definatly not forgotten

That's true, however the only novel I know of that they get mentioned in (from recent years) is Helsreach. What are the others?

Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
is like saying that sisters of battle are female space marines.

You mean they're not? Well dang, there goes that army idea...

Well, they have a whole distinct background and history, I mean. So just throwing them into, say, codex: Imperial Guard by putting a unit called battle sisters would make a lot of people angry. If were just unique space marines because we have vows, their just unique space marines because they have acts of faith.





I still love the Sob, though.

It was supposed to be a joke.

Personally, seeing as how Blood Angels and Dark Angels are more like Vanilla Marines they should have been rolled into the codex with them. For example:
Chapter Tactics Blood Angels: Models with this rule have the Red Rage special rule. Vehicles from this detachment have the Fast Vehicle Type. Blood Angels treat Assault Marines as Troops.
Done. Dark Angels would be somewhat similar as well.

Black Templars were (and Space Wolves are) unique enough to warrant their own codex as they don't even come close to following the Codex Astartes.

Yeah, you actually have a really good point there. But then again with only three marine codexes GW would lose money

And yeah, I know it was a joke(and pretty funny one at that), but I wanted to show what I meant a little better.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Im not saying we have it bad. As a sisters player, you have it bad(no offence), way worse off than we are!
And the nerf to AoF was really bad, but you still have them! Taking zeal from us is like taking AoF rules and turning them into an army wide rule: Hatred. Yes, it benefits a few of your units, but for the most part its useless, and will almost never see any use on your units.

Im not saying we have it bad, but we definitely have less than before.

BrianDavion wrote:
as for saying Bts are "Dead" I think it's worth remembering that the Black Templars are a second founding Chapter.
when you compare the BTs to ANY other second founding chapter they're getting a TON of attention. they apper in a good number of novels. have their own chapter tactics, have 3 ICs in the SM codex.

yeah they no longer have their own codex now, but they're still definatly not forgotten

Technically the Templars are the Imp Fists First Company and were only forced to split by the Guilliman Heresy. They have been around since the Great Crusade (the Templar Cross denotes a Great Crusade veteran on IF heraldtry).

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for saying Bts are "Dead" I think it's worth remembering that the Black Templars are a second founding Chapter.
when you compare the BTs to ANY other second founding chapter they're getting a TON of attention. they apper in a good number of novels. have their own chapter tactics, have 3 ICs in the SM codex.

yeah they no longer have their own codex now, but they're still definatly not forgotten

Technically the Templars are the Imp Fists First Company and were only forced to split by the Guilliman Heresy. They have been around since the Great Crusade (the Templar Cross denotes a Great Crusade veteran on IF heraldtry).

They still count as a second founding chapter as they split into a new chapter at that point. All second founding chapters were formed in part from their parent Legions, so that doesn't make the BT unique honestly.

While I don't care if their a 1st or 2nd founding chapter, they still deserve rules that reflect their preferred method of fighting.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal and the Vows is what made the army work the way it did (or well, almost work in 5th). It's like removing Mob Rule from Orks or Synapse from Tyranids. One rule change that completely changes the dynamic of the army.

Vows were replaced Chapter Tactics, Righteous Zeal became Crusader. Yes it's different, but it's also a lot more balanced overall.

"Balanced" and "different" are not synonyms for "worse". The minimum range you get from movement these days is 7" (6" move + 1" run). WIth RZ, the minimum was 8 (6" move, 1" run, 1" Zeal), and while that was dependant on your enemy shooting you, Crusader Seals let you reroll Zeal moves, meaning you moved an average of 6"+3.5"+~3.71" for a total of ~13.21". With the current Codex, you'll get 6"+~4.48"=~10.48" movement, which is almost 3" lower. In the max example, it gets even more lopsided, where the current maximum is 12" and the old 21" (with Cenobyte Servitors, otherwise 18"). How is that more "balanced"? How is rerolls in Challenges more "balanced" than rerolls all the time?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for saying Bts are "Dead" I think it's worth remembering that the Black Templars are a second founding Chapter.
when you compare the BTs to ANY other second founding chapter they're getting a TON of attention. they apper in a good number of novels. have their own chapter tactics, have 3 ICs in the SM codex.

yeah they no longer have their own codex now, but they're still definatly not forgotten

Technically the Templars are the Imp Fists First Company and were only forced to split by the Guilliman Heresy. They have been around since the Great Crusade (the Templar Cross denotes a Great Crusade veteran on IF heraldtry).

They still count as a second founding chapter as they split into a new chapter at that point. All second founding chapters were formed in part from their parent Legions, so that doesn't make the BT unique honestly.

They're just as much the Imperial Fists Legion as the Imperial Fists Chapter is. Both were formed from the Imperial Fists Legion, but the Legion is not the same entity as the Chapter of the same name.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
. How is that more "balanced"? How is rerolls in Challenges more "balanced" than rerolls all the time?

<---- Played Black Templars since 2008.

50 points for rerolling every to-hit in close combat with everyone was too cheap, man. WAY too cheap. Let that one go.

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
. How is that more "balanced"? How is rerolls in Challenges more "balanced" than rerolls all the time?

<---- Played Black Templars since 2008.

50 points for rerolling every to-hit in close combat with everyone was too cheap, man. WAY too cheap. Let that one go.

Not to mention it was the only one anyone wanted to use, even when it became Rage at the start of 6th.

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
. How is that more "balanced"? How is rerolls in Challenges more "balanced" than rerolls all the time?

<---- Played Black Templars since 2008.

50 points for rerolling every to-hit in close combat with everyone was too cheap, man. WAY too cheap. Let that one go.

Technically you had to overpay for the Emperor's Champion as well, but whatever.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
. How is that more "balanced"? How is rerolls in Challenges more "balanced" than rerolls all the time?

<---- Played Black Templars since 2008.

50 points for rerolling every to-hit in close combat with everyone was too cheap, man. WAY too cheap. Let that one go.

Not to mention it was the only one anyone wanted to use, even when it became Rage at the start of 6th.

Probably because the other ones were pretty crap TBH. Giving up Initiative for Strength and paying for the privilege was pretty pointless, giving everyone a 6++ in exchange for no cover saves and paying for the privilege was downright awful and paying to maybe possibly sometimes give sort-of Scouts to the entire army was pretty shoddy as well. That leaves the one Vow that did something.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Righteous Zeal and the Vows is what made the army work the way it did (or well, almost work in 5th). It's like removing Mob Rule from Orks or Synapse from Tyranids. One rule change that completely changes the dynamic of the army.

Vows were replaced Chapter Tactics, Righteous Zeal became Crusader. Yes it's different, but it's also a lot more balanced overall.

"Balanced" and "different" are not synonyms for "worse". The minimum range you get from movement these days is 7" (6" move + 1" run). WIth RZ, the minimum was 8 (6" move, 1" run, 1" Zeal), and while that was dependant on your enemy shooting you, Crusader Seals let you reroll Zeal moves, meaning you moved an average of 6"+3.5"+~3.71" for a total of ~13.21". With the current Codex, you'll get 6"+~4.48"=~10.48" movement, which is almost 3" lower. In the max example, it gets even more lopsided, where the current maximum is 12" and the old 21" (with Cenobyte Servitors, otherwise 18"). How is that more "balanced"? How is rerolls in Challenges more "balanced" than rerolls all the time?

Re-rolls all the time was too powerful, especially since we had access to 5 man teams and tank-hunting termies. As much as I loved it, I will admit that it was a bit much. However, instead of finding a way to fix this, we were just given nothing. Orks have furious charge, Blood Angels have all kinds of fun stuff, dark elder have pain tokens, and now we have nothing. It feels like our special rule- the ones that mattered- are gone.

Makumba wrote:
Not realy . the sob didn't lose much . BT lost a lot . 2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads and veteran skills. Machine spirit vindicators . Sure they can now take all the stuff marines take , but taking those marine options doesn't use the models people who bought BT have and those options still work better using other chapter rules . If BT don't have divination and their biker list is weaker then the WS&IH one , then they are as good as dead.

If sob suddenly lost exorcists and dominions , but instead could take cultists squads , then it maybe could have been the same . thing.

So, are you new to this game ? Do you have any idea of what you are talking about ?

Those things you lost are just the basic changes we see in every new edition of any codex. EVERY. NEW. CODEX. EVER. The number of weapons in 5 women dominion squads changed in the last Sisters of Battle codex too. But wait, there is more. Did you know during our last update, a whole type of generic HQ just disappeared ? How is that in any way comparable to loosing “2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads” ?
Actually, your only problem is that black templar are not the more competitive choice out there. Here is a scoop for you : neither is Sisters of Battle, we are actually in a way worse position.
Enjoy your flyers, your plastic miniatures, your many dozens of unit types…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Not realy . the sob didn't lose much . BT lost a lot . 2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads and veteran skills. Machine spirit vindicators . Sure they can now take all the stuff marines take , but taking those marine options doesn't use the models people who bought BT have and those options still work better using other chapter rules . If BT don't have divination and their biker list is weaker then the WS&IH one , then they are as good as dead.

If sob suddenly lost exorcists and dominions , but instead could take cultists squads , then it maybe could have been the same . thing.

So, are you new to this game ? Do you have any idea of what you are talking about ?

Those things you lost are just the basic changes we see in every new edition of any codex. EVERY. NEW. CODEX. EVER. The number of weapons in 5 women dominion squads changed in the last Sisters of Battle codex too. But wait, there is more. Did you know during our last update, a whole type of generic HQ just disappeared ? How is that in any way comparable to loosing “2 heavy weapons in 5 man terminator squads” ?
Actually, your only problem is that black templar are not the more competitive choice out there. Here is a scoop for you : neither is Sisters of Battle, we are actually in a way worse position.
Enjoy your flyers, your plastic miniatures, your many dozens of unit types…

Exalted for truth.

I hate to admit it, but the sisters players above this post do have a point. However, Makumba does kind of have a good point: while we do have new, plastic (heck, even metal) models, the unique rules that separated the BT from every other flavor of marines are gone.

Let me ask you this, ClockWorkZion-
Why do you play SoB? Is it the cool rules, the interesting fluff, or the unique (albeit pewter) models? I play Black Templars because of all of the above. And now, my cool rules are gone, my interesting fluff is changed (worship the emperor? WTF?) and my cool models are no longer represented.
Yeah, you guys have it way worse than us, no doubt, but at least you have a unique army. We have little more than black marines with chainswords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And please understand I meant no offense!

Models and fluff.

If I played for the rules I have the wrong army (well armies now that I'm building a MoK heavy Crimson Slaughter army too).

Black Templars may be my favorite army, but sisters do have, imop, the best backround of any army. Ad the models, while old, are pretty impressive. Im actually considering running them as allies.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
bbbc1bce3b.jpg]No, im talking pre fifth, back when inquisitorial troops was a thing

I suppose that's technically true, yeah. Though the Witch Hunters codex was also basically the Sisters sharing a codex with another faction.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
(worship the emperor? WTF?)

Just out of curiosity, was this ever specifically stated to not be the case? Throughout their existence, the Templars have displayed extreme zeal and heavy trappings of religion. The fluff behind the Emperor's Champion, for example, is extremely religious. To me, saying that they worship big E seems to fit in with how they were previously.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
Black Templars may be my favorite army, but sisters do have, imop, the best backround of any army. Ad the models, while old, are pretty impressive. Im actually considering running them as allies.

Not Battle Brothers, but at least your not punished for pairing them anymore.

As for the BT fluff change, that was previously something I saw attributed to the Templars a lot so it's possible that it's something that the Dev team heard, liked and gave to them. There are other chapters who see the Emperor as a kind of a god so it's not like they're out in left field alone, plus with how the Emperor's Champion works (the visions thing) they just have the evidence they need to push that idea (in my opinion at least).

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
(worship the emperor? WTF?)

Just out of curiosity, was this ever specifically stated to not be the case? Throughout their existence, the Templars have displayed extreme zeal and heavy trappings of religion. The fluff behind the Emperor's Champion, for example, is extremely religious. To me, saying that they worship big E seems to fit in with how they were previously.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:

I dunno, maybe im being petty, but that change just felt like a slap in the face

I don't know, you could have been completely squatted instead of getting shifted over into a heavily supported codex. I just stick with trying to look at the positive when it comes to the way GW handles some of the armies...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
Black Templars may be my favorite army, but sisters do have, imop, the best backround of any army. Ad the models, while old, are pretty impressive. Im actually considering running them as allies.

Not Battle Brothers, but at least your not punished for pairing them anymore.

As for the BT fluff change, that was previously something I saw attributed to the Templars a lot so it's possible that it's something that the Dev team heard, liked and gave to them. There are other chapters who see the Emperor as a kind of a god so it's not like they're out in left field alone, plus with how the Emperor's Champion works (the visions thing) they just have the evidence they need to push that idea (in my opinion at least).

Eh, perhaps your right. It certainly does give their cries of FOR DA EMPRAH a new meaning!

Aad the relationship between the BT and the SoB is not "desperate allies"! Read the SM codex and it actually says that they go to war together constantly, and are best buds! Heck, now that the emperor is a god we have even more reason to fight together. So allies chart be damned, Im gonna do it.

Maybe for them "One Eye Open" is more of a friendly rivalry over who gets to smite the next Heretic?

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
And now, my cool rules are gone, my interesting fluff is changed (worship the emperor? WTF?) and my cool models are no longer represented.

I can sympathize with that, but I am not sure what you mean by your cool models being not represented anymore. Is that about that model of serf carrying some kind of column or something ? Fluff changes can be pretty uncool. As for the rules, well, I hope a change of edition will allow you to field some big crusade units and still be competitive.

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
Black Templars may be my favorite army, but sisters do have, imop, the best backround of any army. Ad the models, while old, are pretty impressive. Im actually considering running them as allies.

Not Battle Brothers, but at least your not punished for pairing them anymore.

As for the BT fluff change, that was previously something I saw attributed to the Templars a lot so it's possible that it's something that the Dev team heard, liked and gave to them. There are other chapters who see the Emperor as a kind of a god so it's not like they're out in left field alone, plus with how the Emperor's Champion works (the visions thing) they just have the evidence they need to push that idea (in my opinion at least).

Eh, perhaps your right. It certainly does give their cries of FOR DA EMPRAH a new meaning!

Aad the relationship between the BT and the SoB is not "desperate allies"! Read the SM codex and it actually says that they go to war together constantly, and are best buds! Heck, now that the emperor is a god we have even more reason to fight together. So allies chart be damned, Im gonna do it.

I always thought that the BT were the more likely to be full blown Emperor worshipers and now its confirmed.

Given that GW no longer include the BT as a seperate line on the latest Codex Ally Martrices - I can't see the argument holding that you still use the old line in the BRB, dubious as it always was (and totally agains the actual fluff - old and current)

At least BT managed to keep a Special Character or two - Iron Hands (an actual 1st Founding Chapter) have had a Supplement and still have not got a single one...............its not much I guess but.............

 BlackTemplar1 wrote:
Aad the relationship between the BT and the SoB is not "desperate allies"! Read the SM codex and it actually says that they go to war together constantly, and are best buds! Heck, now that the emperor is a god we have even more reason to fight together. So allies chart be damned, Im gonna do it.

Yep they change the fluff so they are the best of buds but still are Desperate Allies. Go figure.

Actually I think Mr Morden nailed it: there is no BT slot on any allies charts posted post C:SM so we can cross that off the list as being an issue anymore.

That or we'd have to limit BT from allying with Inquisition (I could see that one), Legion of the Damned, and Imperial Knights as there aren't rules for them to ally to them otherwise.

Per the codex anything that refers to C: Black Templar (like the BRB Allies Matrix) now refers to SM with Black Templar Chapter Tactics.