Starting to see why people thought we were all complaining about the Nid Dex only cause it wasn't OP

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**AllSeeingSkink**

It's interesting how 40k discussion often degrade*** in to "well at least it's not as bad as ...." or "why are you complaining about the balance of .... when it's not nearly as terrible as ....".

Sometimes I get the feeling that instead of people wanting things to improve, they just want everything to suck as hard as the worst thing sucks now (which is typically something from a Codex that hasn't even been updated, from a Codex with wildly unbalanced options or a Codex that GW apparently seems to hate).

Often I just wish GW did what they did in 3rd edition, frakk the old codices and start fresh. New edition, new rules, burn the old books so we can get rid of the silliness where the game designers are trying to fit new rules in to an old rusty framework.

The Tyranid codex sucks. There's a ton of units that just flat out suck and a ton of things that could have been viable tactics/options which flat out suck because of poor implementation. Are there worse codices? Yeah, there are, but this one was released just a few months ago and for the current edition.

***and by "degrade', in this particular thread it was the 1st reply

**ClockworkZion**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sometimes I get the feeling that instead of people wanting things to improve, they just want everything to suck as hard as the worst thing sucks now (which is typically something from a Codex that hasn't even been updated, from a Codex with wildly unbalanced options or a Codex that GW apparently seems to hate).

It's less wanting everything to suck and more wishing people would quit crying that they have it the worst (which is what many of the threads like this do) when other things are worse off than their army.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Often I just wish GW did what they did in 3rd edition, frakk the old codices and start fresh. New edition, new rules, burn the old books so we can get rid of the silliness where the game designers are trying to fit new rules in to an old rusty framework.

The switch in 3rd was largely to push the new (at the time) tournament scene. While I don't think that it was a bad idea, but it was very rushed and that mistake shouldn't be repeated for sure.

If they reboot the game they need to take a good long time to work on it and really fine tune it. And once it's fine tuned basically run a "living edition" with it and focus on updating the armies and codexes over time instead of the entire game.

**VorpalBunny74**

Psienesis wrote:
IB is an old rule, and has been with the Tyranids since their inception. It's taken a few different forms over the years, but ties into the old "Shoot the Big Ones!" army-wide rule from way back.

IIRC, that allowed the enemy to shoot at the big bugs regardless of any intervening models. They didn't get cover saves from other Tyranids.

Oh I know IB is an old rule, I just think the current incarnation of it is a bit silly.

I want Hormagaunts to act like a pack of wolves when out of synapse, not like the Three Stooges.

**AllSeeingSkink**

ClockworkZion wrote:
It's less wanting everything to suck and more wishing people would quit crying that they have it the worst (which is what many of the threads like this do) when other things are worse off than their army.

I don't think anyone ever suggested Tyranids have it the worst. You don't have to be the worst in 40k to have things suck and be poorly written. In fact the 2nd reply to this thread was agreeing that sisters have it worse.

**Addaran**

SHUPPET wrote:And I think that's because a lot of you actually were.

A lot of talk about "badly written codex, Cruddex 2.0, I'm not crying I just wanted more variety" has quickly dissipated with the release of the dataslates, well most pointedly Skyblight Swarm. Now the general response has turned to positive, with much talk of "back to being happy with the state of my Tyranids, if this was only in the original codex I would have never complained to begin with".

Well... no. Looking at all our 6E rules as one bundle, even with the dataslates rolled in the book is still as bland as ever. Forest infiltrating Lictors, ruin infiltrating Stealers, Spore Mines that run at 6" instead of 3", re-rolling Tervigon spawn rolls of 1, and 18" Synapse range on some Warrior units, do NOT make our codex less bland. That is not to say there isn't some possible uses for these, and definite uses for the ones not mentioned (Endless, Skyblight & Artillery formations). However, they add very little flavor to list building and even less variation.

Lets address the elephant in the room - Skyblight. Yes, it is powerful, and likely our most competitive option between both this and the last dex. At the same time, it costs over 1000 points minimum to take if used sensibly (sure you could leave the TL Devourers at home and not pack more gargoyles if you wanted to keep it at 800-900 pts, but that begs the question as to why you are taking it in the first place). And after this sizable points investment, the rest of your list writes itself. This doesn't give me more options for list building, it just gives me a list and says "here play like this or go directly back to the same old book". The other good options are just this to lesser extremes, with the exception of Artillery which is basically just a plain buff to these units / FOC if you are taking them. But this is not even SLIGHTLY improving the quality of the Nid dex. It makes it more powerful, and apparently that's all most of you ever wanted because it seems we are content now.

Me? I'm here just making this thread "crying" about Raveners. About Rippers. Walking Tyrants. Pyrovores. Swarmlord. Shrikes. Hive Guard. Drop Pods. Doom. BRB powers. Haruspexhormagantgenestealerscythingtalonscrushingclawstyranidprimetervigonetc etc etc.

Sure I'll take what I can get. Lictors pretty much not even appearing on the FOC anymore is fun. Endless Swarm makes my Trygon something other than a counts-as Mawloc. Re-rollable pinning blasts are my best bet for any attempt I want to try to make with stealers or horms. But anybody who claimed they were unhappy with the original release due to "bad internal balance and bad writing" but is now content thanks to dataslates (may as well just call it "thanks to Skyblight and Artillery") has completely lost their integrity. It's a shame that after all that talk, most of you didn't actually want a "fun" codex, you were just as happy being able to Buy flyerspam and get some cheap victories. i'm not even going to call it "building", because close to zero thought goes into any list related decisions after deciding to take that formation.

One of the problem with the codex was that while there was some nice buff (lower cost for termies, horma and carnifex!) there was a bunch of not needed nerfs.
Everyone knew tervigons would get nerfed (every list had 2-3 minimum!) same with DoM.
Removing the pods sucked. A bunch of the armies have them, it was only a huge problem with the OP DoM. The nerf to scything talons..... That's just mean. We lost half of our TL. Parasite of Mortrex was just a fun character to put in fluffy army, but wasn't that effective, specialy compared to flyrant. The change to "weapons" is HUGE for melee. You used to be able to stack them. Now, double bone sword is weaker in every way then bonesword + lash whip, except that it cost 5 points less.

The dataslates does give great formations. Getting Lictors that don't count for FOC is awesome if you like Mawlocks. Heavy support being so good choices, living artillery is awesome. You get biovores, exocrine and synapse, while still being able to take trygons, tyrano and mawlocks. Endless swarms sounds insanely fun. You can get super aggressive and you'll still have troops at the end for objectives. It's a very nice buff to swarm armies. (able to get more models then the FOC used to allow and half the time, the squads might come back.... in the middle of battle if you have trygons) I've even heard good things about the silly genestealers, beeing able to charge first turn and hurt back of tanks. Skyblight obviously, dont need explaining.

Raveners, walk-rants/swarmy seems to possibly have formation coming. Wait for the 3rd dataslate before giving hope.

Saevus wrote:
I personally think Nid players overeacted. The codex lacks a bit in quality (fluff, a lot of cut and paste, etc) but tbh, Nids are boring as hell and that is their fault for being the most mind numbingly bland army in the 40k universe. All that aside, Nids are still a decent army....I think the big reason people were upset was exactly as you say, percieved power creep. We had a series of Codex's that kind of got sillier as time went on, then the Nid one dropped and it wasn't LOLWTFPWNED Over powered and people were caught off guard and they complained. But is it suprising they are suddenly happy when some power creeps their way? No, not at all. Standard practice.

Nids bland? They are one of the unique and fun army. The fluff is awesome. Personnaly, it's the 300 different space marines and chaos space marines that don't interest me to read about them. The sisters of battle, xenos and demons is where the fun is!

**AllSeeingSkink**

ClockworkZion wrote:
If they reboot the game they need to take a good long time to work on it and really fine tune it. And once it's fine tuned basically run a "living edition" with it and focus on updating the armies and codexes over time instead of the entire game.

As long as they burn the old rules and codices so we don't have the situation we have now where each new edition is hamstrung by trying to fit in to old codices.

**ClockworkZion**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
If they reboot the game they need to take a good long time to work on it and really fine tune it. And once it's fine tuned basically run a "living edition" with it and focus on updating the armies and codexes over time instead of the entire game.
As long as they burn the old rules and codices so we don't have the situation we have now where each new edition is hamstrung by trying to fit in to old codices.

I wouldn't go as far as burning them (I generally like to avoid abusing books, it's not their fault after all) but yes, the edition would need to launch with a massive erratta or new books for every army.

And then the player base would be mad for the massive invalidation of all the rules at the same time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
It's less wanting everything to suck and more wishing people would quit crying that they have it the worst (which is what many of the threads like this do) when other things are worse off than their army.
I don't think anyone ever suggested Tyranids have it the worst. You don't have to be the worst in 40k to have things suck and be poorly written. In fact the 2nd reply to this thread was agreeing that sisters have it worse.

I admit to over reading into it. You see a lot of threads that are like this and you end up basically learning a response which isn't always appropriate (but usually fits).

**PrinceRaven**

Personally I'm still not happy with the book, I'm glad the dataslates make it a little more interesting than the 5th ed book but they're obvious cash-grab DLC that should have been in the Codex, and you can only polish a turd so much.

**xttz**

Saying the Nid codex is fine just because a certain build can beat Tau is missing the bigger picture.
It's like saying that your new car is fine because it's faster than someone else's, while ignoring the fact that the seats are made of bare wood and the brakes only work every other time you press them.

**AllSeeingSkink**

The thing that annoys me about the dataslates, while YES, the do make some troops more effective and in that sense increase options, they....

1. Cost more money above and beyond the codex which should not have sucked in the first place.

2. While they make certain units better, they force you in to taking that unit in a formation when the unit shouldn't have sucked in the first place.

Yay, the Skyblight formation doesn't suck... but I don't want to go out and buy $400 of gargoyles and harpies, I'd rather I could just make a balanced list from within the codex.

If the Ravener/Trygon formation doesn't suck, that will be nice... however it is still going to be annoying that to make Trygons and Raveners useful, you have to buy 3+ boxes of Raveners and 3 boxes of Trygons/Mawlocks. Someone walks in to a GW and picks up a box of Raveners for $74AUD only to find out they are terrible unless you buy another $148 worth of of Raveners and $288AUD worth of Trygon/Mawlock boxes. That's $510 worth of models just so Raveners can not suck quite so hard.

**Happyjew**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The thing that annoys me about the dataslates, while YES, the do make some troops more effective and in that sense increase options, they....

1. Cost more money above and beyond the codex which should not have sucked in the first place.

2. While they make certain units better, they force you in to taking that unit in a formation when the unit shouldn't have sucked in the first place.

Yay, the Skyblight formation doesn't suck... but I don't want to go out and buy $400 of gargoyles and harpies, I'd rather I could just make a balanced list from within the codex.

If the Ravener/Trygon formation doesn't suck, that will be nice... however it is still going to be annoying that to make Trygons and Raveners useful, you have to buy 3+ boxes of Raveners and 3 boxes of Trygons/Mawlocks. Someone walks in to a GW and picks up a box of Raveners for $74AUD only to find out they are terrible unless you buy another $148 worth of of Raveners and $288AUD worth of Trygon/Mawlock boxes. That's $510 worth of models just so Raveners can not suck quite so hard.

I wouldn't know about their effectiveness. My local store has banned their use for tournaments, and others don't want to play against them in casual.

**dementedwombat**

It still ignites a small blow-torch of anger in my heart that tyranids can't get access to frag grenade equivalents on genestealers. You'd think the scouting independent sneaky biomorphs designed to fight in close quarters would actually...you know...have a way to drag their prey out of close quarters into arms reach.

**PrinceRaven**

Ambush hunters being good at ambushing? Now that's just ridiculous.

**SHUPPET**

ClockworkZion wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
It's less wanting everything to suck and more wishing people would quit crying that they have it the worst (which is what many of the threads like this do) when other things are worse off than their army.
I don't think anyone ever suggested Tyranids have it the worst. You don't have to be the worst in 40k to have things suck and be poorly written. In fact the 2nd reply to this thread was agreeing that sisters have it worse.

I admit to over reading into it. You see a lot of threads that are like this and you end up basically learning a response which isn't always appropriate (but usually fits).

Then perhaps you should have taken the time to read other people's posts before spouting off a bunch off nonsense. This was not a thread about my opinions on the Nid dex, or which codex had it worse (which I did say was Sisters), this was a thread about the contrast between people's opinions with the book in the first month and the book now. And the difference is More than just people accepting the book & getting sick of complaining about it (I also am in this boat), no the difference is far more accentuated than that, with the release of Skyblight, the current opinion of the masses has changed to completely positive when fundamentally, the book is exactly the same as it was flexibility wise as upon release, it just got more competitive. The hypocrisy is beyond belief and I think a lot of the counter-talk I saw in the original thread of "you are just mad because you didn't get Tau, not because you care about internal balance" was actually accurate. That is what this thread is about. Not that Tyranids have the worst dex, or never could compete, which was not the case even upon release. I believe I even said our new vanilla book (before dataslates) was slightly stronger than the last, but just as badly written (or worse).

But thanks for contributing about half an A4 page worth of off-topic trolling Clockwork. I'll be sure to take all future opinions I see from you with a grain of salt.

Zande4 wrote:
Sisters players will always make threads like this about them because the players that codex attracts are the people that like to feel special and unique. If Tyranid, Ork or BA players complain about how unfair they've got it then that takes away from the poor SoB players who have it so hard and must always be the worst off and let everyone know about it... all... the... time...

Yep. Making my own thread for it wouldn't attract the people who don't care it, instead I'm just going to derail other peoples threads from reply 1 with spam about SoB, without actually reading through the topic properly, and any polite requests to refrain I shall view as a challenge to my opinion, and state it as such! (exalted your post btw)

MWHistorian wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd take a bland codex over a digital only codex that hasn't seen a single new model added to it since 3rd edition.

This isn't about a competition with SoB, who I agree have had worse treatment than Nids. But looking at everything with the perspective of "well, you aren't as bad off as Sisters!" makes a 40k discussion forum pretty pointless. If you want to talk about Sisters, make a thread. This thread is about Nids.

I thought this was a thread for getting up on your soap box and assuming incorrectly why others disagree with your opinion and how stupid they are.

Yep that's exactly what this is! That being said however, maybe if the post that mine was in response to, was not an open-ended off topic reference that didn't actually disagree with any opinion stated, there would have been no room for incorrect assumptions to be made. Luckily though, no incorrect assumptions were made, as the only "assumption" made by me (if you can even call it that as it is really just the obvious interpretation of a single sentence post) has been proved accurate by each further post made by him in this thread. Hmmm, actually MWH, maybe what you thought this thread was about might not be as accurate as you believed. Is it possible twas only you who made the incorrect assumption?

**ClockworkZion**

SHUPPET wrote:
But thanks for contributing about half an A4 page worth of off-topic trolling Clockwork. I'll be sure to take all future opinions I see from you with a grain of salt.

Actually if you read the thread, outside of that first post, I've been in part, largely on topic.

And yes, I read your post but things like this:

Me? I'm here just making this thread "crying" about Raveners. About Rippers. Walking Tyrants. Pyrovores. Swarmlord. Shrikes. Hive Guard. Drop Pods. Doom. BRB powers. Haruspexhormagantgenestealerscythingtalonscrushingclawstyranidprimetervigonetc etc etc.

tend to send the wrong message about what you're trying to say and make it look like a bitch thread about how you think the codex still sucks while everone else has moved on. So, you know, exactly like every thread ever made to complain about a codex being "the worst ever" instead of anything productive. So perhaps maybe less hyperbole in your own posts, and a more clear cut and less sarcastic opening post and we can all get along better next time. Poe's Law and all that.

**Veteran of The Long War**

I feel you guy's pain, CSM got the same treatment as you got.

**ClockworkZion**

As for the chief complaint (that apparently everyone stopped complaining when dataslates came out), according to one person over in the Tyranid Tactics thread that hasn't really been the case:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not sure which thread you've been reading - many of us haven't been down on the new codex from the start.
I mean - I pointed out the obvious flaws (Pyrovores still suck, Tervigons got expectedly nerfed, Swarmlord got unexpectedly nerfed, loss of Pods) but overall I've been happy.

Maybe the OP has only been reading the most negative voices?

**ZebioLizard2**

Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I feel you guy's pain, CSM got the same treatment as you got.

Actually we had it all then had it ripped away, they never had it at all.

**Veteran of The Long War**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I feel you guy's pain, CSM got the same treatment as you got.

Actually we had it all then had it ripped away, they never had it at all.

They had it pretty good in 4th. Remember the Nidzilla?

**PrinceRaven**

ClockworkZion wrote:
As for the chief complaint (that apparently everyone stopped complaining when dataslates came out), according to one person over in the Tyranid Tactics thread that hasn't really been the case:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not sure which thread you've been reading - many of us haven't been down on the new codex from the start.
I mean - I pointed out the obvious flaws (Pyrovores still suck, Tervigons got expectedly nerfed, Swarmlord got unexpectedly nerfed, loss of Pods) but overall I've been happy.

Maybe the OP has only been reading the most negative voices?

You're taking that out of context, rigeld's post was in response to a discussion about people being down on how competitive Tyranids would be when the Codex.

Now, I don't speak for the entire Tyranid community, but from what I've seen that isn't anywhere close to the main complaint.

Veteran of The Long War wrote:
They had it pretty good in 4th. Remember the Nidzilla?

You mean monobuild.dex? While powerful, just putting a Hive Tyrant, some Genestealers, and a bunch of Carnifices down on the table would have to get boring after a while. (started playing in 5th, so I wouldn't know first-hand)

That being said, the mutable upgrades of the 4th ed book are a thing of beauty.

**ClockworkZion**

PrinceRaven wrote:
You're taking that out of context, rigeld's post was in response to a discussion about people being down on how competitive Tyranids would be when the Codex.

Now, I don't speak for the entire Tyranid community, but from what I've seen that isn't anywhere close to the main complaint.

It is out of context, but it's a good point to bring up regarding the idea that the 'Nid community has been largely complaining since the book came out, when we have a decently sized one here who is attesting to being largely happy with the book despite the things that were not so great about this one versus the last one.

**SHUPPET**

Actually yes, forgive me, I haven't been looking at the broad picture here, I mean the positive response to the Tyranid release has been nothing short of overwhelming. One person's post in the tactic section definitely cements this fact.

Or maybe we could link a couple of other posts, from that same page...

PrinceRaven wrote:
How the codex competes is very far down on my list of complaints.

vortexdr wrote:
Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.

Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)

All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm

There's plenty of discussion either way, but to act like it's all been positive from the start is ridiculous. You read this thread? In case you missed it., heres some stats for you

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Within the first 6 pages, I counted 81 unique users. Out of those, 19 users made only off-topic or otherwise irrelevant comments. That leaves 62 users who did make some kind of opinion about the codex known somehow. There were 12 users who posted positive views (I was pretty generous with this, anyone even playing devil's advocate or saying "wait and see" I considered positive), 5 mixed opinions, and 45 negative views. The negative views ran the gamut from long, impassioned, well-reasoned complaints, to people popping in to leave one snide comment. Percentage-wise, the Tyranid thread broke down as 19% positive, 73% negative, 8% mixed.

My point is that we went from that, to, as you said, people in the other thread with positive views on the dex, all thanks to Skyblight Hypocrisy. So yeah, I wouldn't say that I've been ignoring the amazing positive response just to focus on the negative. 73% negative, 8% mixed. Under 20% positive. Just a tip for further responses, revisionism doesn't work so well when everything is still all viewable on the forum.

**ClockworkZion**

You want to know why they changed their tune maybe it's best aimed at the crowd specifically that you're criticizing instead of everyone in general. Say, by posting in the thread and getting their responses directly, instead of in the "General 40" forum where everyone, to include non Nid players will see it and respond with their own opinions about the book despite the fact that they're not really the ones you seem to be wanting accountability from.

**SHUPPET**

So now the troll / Sisters spammer is lecturing me about making off-topic threads. If this thread doesn't concern you, why enter it. As you said earlier, it's a public forum. You used this as justification to go wildly off topic. I'm posting a 40k related topic in the 40k general discussion subforum. Stop trolling. I struggle to see why you are further posting in here. From first reply onwards its clear you came in here looking for an argument, so I'm just going to go ahead and give you the report you want so badly, and just ignore all further posts. You have had your feed.

Have a nice day.

EDIT: nice subject change when presented with logic that proves you undeniably incorrect by the way. I've seen smoother.

**PrinceRaven**

Is it just me, or is revisionist history very popular on this forum?

**Ventus**

Shuppet - don't lump everyone together like that. Just because we are all not complaining constantly about the poor quality, bland and unimaginative nid dex, an opinion I had on day one and still do, doesn't mean we are all happy. Everyone would be sick and tired of hearing constant complaining - I'm sure you included.

The dataslates do provide some options but it doesn't change the failure of the dex or that fact that if I want to try those rules I have to pay more on top of an already overpriced dex. It is doubtful I will get the dataslates. Others may but either way the dex is the mess we have and either we shelve/sell our nids or find a way to play them that we are happy with, dex alone or with dataslates.

**ClockworkZion**

SHUPPET wrote:
So now the troll / Sisters spammer is lecturing me about making off-topic threads. If this thread doesn't concern you, why enter it. As you said earlier, it's a public forum. You used this as justification to go wildly off topic. I'm posting a 40k related topic in the 40k general discussion subforum. Stop trolling. I struggle to see why you are further posting in here. From first reply onwards its clear you came in here looking for an argument, so I'm just going to go ahead and give you the report you want so badly, and just ignore all further posts. You have had your feed.

Have a nice day.

EDIT: nice subject change when presented with logic that proves you undeniably incorrect by the way. I've seen smoother.

One off topic post does not make one a spammer. I never wanted an arguement, I just didn't agree with the tone of your intro post, particularly the part I highlighted where you said were were just here to cry about a whole slew of things in the codex and it read a lot like every thread I've ever seen where someone starts playing a sad violin over how bad their army has it.

I really feel you're just trying to play the victim card for attention here (actually the whole thread feels like a massive cry for attention as the only posts you've seemed to focus on have been tied to my one off topic post at the start of things and not to any post disagreeing about the perceived power of the Tyranid codex, dataslates or not).

And if I fed off of human anguish, anger, suffering and so on I would have stayed in the Army, not spend my time on a message board.

As for the topic change, I was trying to be helpful and point you at a venue that could actually get you the answers you seem to want instead of all the stuff you don't. Forgive me for trying to point you in the direction of a more fruitful bounty of information.

I may have misread too far into your initial post but I made a solid attempt to keep on topic afterwards and you have apparently made it your duty to disagree with me specifically. Congrats. You "win" I suppose. I don't know what it's worth, or even what you're trying to win, but you "win" regardless.

**SHUPPET**

Ventus wrote:
Shuppet - don't lump everyone together like that. Just because we are all not complaining constantly about the poor quality, bland and unimaginative nid dex, an opinion I had on day one and still do, doesn't mean we are all happy. Everyone would be sick and tired of hearing constant complaining - I'm sure you included.

The dataslates do provide some options but it doesn't change the failure of the dex or that fact that if I want to try those rules I have to pay more on top of an already overpriced dex. It is doubtful I will get the dataslates. Others may but either way the dex is the mess we have and either we shelve/sell our nids or find a way to play them that we are happy with, dex alone or with dataslates.

Yeah I agree with you. And I haven't lumped everyone in together, I for one was unhappy with the dex day 1 and still am - at this stage there is no point in complaining about it, its all been said. I just I find it quite disheartening that a lot of my brother in arms and uproar who claimed they needed more "versatility and better writing" in their dex, were just as easily sated with some Flyerspamcheese nonsense instead. Believe me, I haven't lumped everyone who complained about the Nid dex into this category, otherwise it would literally include myself. And yeah, price aside, the dataslates add very little in list building options, for they most part the useful ones are almost an entire list worth of tax. I'd be much happier with Skyblight if it was just an opening up of FOC slots for fliers, that way I could still take my Mawlocs in the heavys without having to blow a bunch of points on Harpys and Crones and whatever other strong units that I personally would rather not play with. Thus I find very little flexibility is added with the dataslates, in fact with all the tax for taking most the options, its generally reduced flexibility being trade off for stronger units. Not an improvement imo.

**helotaxi**

gravitywell wrote:
Rumor is that they might get some FW love.

Why the hell would that improve my outlook? Pay triple for a model (model, shipping, rules) for a slice off the cheddar wheel? No thanks. I have no intention of ever playing in a tourney again thanks to the fact that you can't even compete with a balanced list anymore. I like the formations because they open up more possibilities for fielding a list with a little more flavor. I doubt that I'll ever field a Skyblight, but the synapse swarm and the endless swarm are real possibilities.

In truth the codex isn't the real problem. The 6ed rules in general are. Nids are a CC army and should remain that way. Trashing the viability of CC armies with the core rules is what nerfed the Nids. Some of it could have been "fixed" with the Codex, but IMO there is enough cheese out there already. The Nid book is probably one of the most balanced books in the new edition. The fact that several of the others are wholesale broken isn't a fault on the Nids.

**Ventus**

I feel your pain Shuppet. I am trying to be motivated enough to play my nids but find it difficult after putting up with the 5th edition mess for 4 years.

The skyblight formation seems very strong and Reece and friends over at frontlinegaming also have settled on a FMC list as their choice for a decent list. One thing that bothers me is that I have to buy so many models its not funny to run something like that. I'm fine with buying new models to add to your army (say 1-2), but I recently bought 2 flyrants (I used to use one sometimes and attached wings to one of my metal tyrants for the game) because they were already the goto HQ and still are but I really don't want to buy crones and harpies and exocrines. I'm tired of replacing so much of my army (had to buy many models when the last dex came out to try to get the army to work - trygons, hive guard, venomthropes, a tervigon (recently - never used them last dex), gargoyles, raveners, etc) .

For my space marine army I don't think I bought anything that wasn't already around - my bike army and salamander army still functioned, just needed to convert a few grav weapons and make some minor changes.